Version 2.7 discussion

Deon · Apr 15, 2009

Hydromancerx said:
Awesome! Could you do one for Honey (and maybe Wax)? And possibly a bee hive building icon? Cause i really think it would be a good resource to get from an "Apiary" aka bee hive. It would work similar to Hit Singles where there is no resource on the map but a building that makes the resource. Oh and i suppose the new tech of "Apiculture" would need an icon too.

Many many thanks in advance if you do this.

I can easily make any resource icons and static models. I just wanted to ask, are you somehow related to the mod development? Because Zappara didn't ask me to do it, but if he needs it I'd do it fast

.

Revolutionist · Apr 15, 2009

I'm entirely certain that someone has done a beehive model before, for resources.
Though I think I remember the model's colour being a bit washed out, or the model being a bit too low poly or something for my tastes. But I could be remembering wrong.

Still, it'd be better as a manufactured resource. Bees aren't exactly uncommon, and can live almost anywhere. Could be a fallback from the 'grain' line of resources for the production of alcohol, if that makes it into the mod as a manufactured one. A sort of last resort if all else somehow fails.

Retrospect · Apr 15, 2009

While I am looking forward to the next concepts and things to be added in 2.7, I would much rather see some (hopefully all) of the kinks ironed out of the current version. Many of us cannot play the megapack for some reason and some of the mapscripts dont appear to be functioning quite the way they should (some resources not being generated on certain maps etc). If you would like any details on these issues feel free to PM me.

Deon · Apr 15, 2009

I don't think that "bees" should be a common resource. I mean, common bees are almost everywhere.
Same for honey. However a national wonder which produces 2-3 exceptional "honey" luxury which can be traded sounds nice. Same for exceptional beer/ale (from grain or whatever).

Big Heb · Apr 15, 2009

I posted this in its own thread, but it reach more people if posted here. I've been working on a tech tree for quite some time (and it actually is not finished) in order to try and make a tree that is more true to historical chronology. Feel try to take ideas from it however you can. Also, another idea I have is Great Literary Works.

- Great Literary Works. Basically these would function like Great Wonders but are cheaper to build, provide basic bonuses, and can be built automatically by Great People (mostly Great Artists). They would exist primarily for flavor though and give the player some more historical information about the important works that have influenced our history. I included some ideas of Great Literary Works in the tech descriptions.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8016/...dtechtree2.jpg

Neolithic Age Techs:
- Stone Tools
- Hunting
- Gathering
- Spearfishing
- Ritualism
- Gender Roles
- Simple Machines
- Weaving
- Large Game Hunting
- Archery
- Pottery
- Agriculture
- Naturopathy
- Angling
- Mysticism
- Specialization of Labor
- The Wheel
- Animal Husbandry
- Slavery

Ancient Age Techs:
- Mining
- Sailing
- Priesthood
- Religion
- Trade
- Metal Casting
- Masonry
- Chariotry
- River Transportation
- Naval Transportation
- Dualism
- Statism
- Wealth
- Bronze Working
- Sculpture
- Horseback Riding
- Elephant Riding
- Polytheism
- Military Training
- Elitism
- Statues
- Horse Breeding
- Writing
- Seafaring

Classical Age Techs
- Foreign Trade
- Monotheism
- Military Tactics
- Plutocracy
- Alphabet
- Aesthetics
- Literature
- Rational Thought
- State Religion
- Code of Laws
- Iron Working
- Athletics
- Shipbuilding
- Drama
- Philosophy
- Mathematics
- Politics
- Civil Service
- Maritime Trade
- Civil Law
- The Column
- Ethics
- Meditation
- Royalty
- Currency
- Calender
- Glass Blowing
- The Arch
- Populism
- Construction
- Fine Cuisine
- Uniform Taxation
- Music
- Siege Warfare
- Engineering
- Imperialism
- Bribery
- Paper
- Satire
- Canal Systems
- Infrastructure
- Concrete
- The Dome

Medieval Age Techs
- Ecumenism
- Divine Law
- Gothic Art
- Theology
- Feudalism
- Usury
- Fundamentalism
- Monasticism
- Fiefdom
- Manorialism
- Mechanical Advantage
- Fiat Currency
- Homiletics
- Compass
- Holy War
- Printing Press
- Chivalry
- Constitution
- Open-Field System
- Fortification
- Alchemy
- Banking
- Guilds
- Clockwork

Renaissance Age Techs
- Optics
- Humanism
- Education
- Gunpowder
- Empirical Method
- Quattrocentro
- Consequentialism
- Mechanism
- Matchlock
- Astronomy
- Physics
- Oil Painting
- Reformation
- Divine Right
- Double-Entry Banking
- Metallurgy
- Navigation
- Chemistry
- Archaeology
- Free Artistry
- Representation
- Liberalism
- Leadership
- Mercantilism
- Naval Cannon
- Social Contract
- Republicanism
- Flintlock
- Corporation
- Medicine
- Deism
- Separation of Church and State
- Juris Prudence
- Economics
- Nationalism
- Replaceable Parts
- New Model Army
- Romanticism
- Enlightened Absolutism
- Cotton Gin
- Rifling
- Military Science

Industrial Age Techs
- Scientific Method
- Thermodynamics
- Biology
- Steel
- Realism
- Steam Power
- Manifest Destiny
- Refining
- Modern Medicine
- Naturalism
- Screw Propeller
- Industrialization
- Railroad
- Explosives
- Marxism
- Progressivism
- State Capitalism
- Electricity
- Psychology
- Combustion
- Theory of Relativity
- Agricultural Engineering
- Labor Union
- Modern Sanitation
- Civil Engineering
- Refrigeration
- Radio
- Motorized Transportation
- Flight
- Trench Warfare
- Motion Pictures

Modern Age Techs
- Quantum Physics
- Communism
- Compulsory Education
- Fascism
- Armored Vehicles
- Assembly Line
- Mass Transit
- Automatic Weapons
- Nuclear Fission
- Rocketry
- Amphibious Warfare
- Electronics
- Submarine Warfare
- Plastics
- Guerilla Warfare
- Aviation
- Sonar
- Machine Tools
- Keynesian Economics
- Mass Media
- Modern Seismology
- Aerodynamics
- Naval Aviation
- Radar
- Biotechnology
- Logistics
- Mechanized Warfare
- Legalized Gambling
- Nuclear Power
- Vertical Flight
- Modern Naval Tactics
- Computers
- Military-Industrial Complex
- Manufacturing
- Tourism
- Jet Propulsion
- Biological Warfare

The rest of the Modern Era can remain unchanged and the Future Era is currently being worked on so I left it alone. I think this tree gives a bit more historical accuracy when it comes to how and when different technologies came to be discovered. However, feel free to pick at the new tech ideas and tech reordering and implement them into RoM as seen fit.

Great Literary Works:
The effects can be debated upon, but should be more slightly powerful than a building but less powerful than Wonders. Some of them should preferably give bonuses to certain civics (like De re republica to Republic, Communist Manifesto to Marxist, The Inferno to Intolerant, The Gospel of Wealth to Private, ETC.

Han Feizi
Gilgamesh
The Illiad by Homer
Hammurabi's Code
Oedipus Rex by Sophocles
Politics by Aristotle
Nichomachean Ethics by Aristotle
Elements by Euclid
De re publica by Cicero
Satires by Juvenal
The Inferno by Dante
Magna Carta
The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli
Two Treatises of Government by John Locke
The Articles of Confederation
The Jefferson Bible by Thomas Jefferson
The Bill of Rights
The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith
Les Miserables by Victor Hugo
Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes
On the Origins of Species by Charles Darwin
The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx
The Gospel of Wealth by Andrew Carnegie

Stoklomolvi · Apr 15, 2009

I think the fixed borders modcomp should be included as an optional component, since it adds an element that you cannot get rid of once you try it. It gives the "Scramble for Civ Africa" a whole new feel.

Bezhukov · Apr 15, 2009

Revolutionist said:
Nice. You're on a roll with the Civ4 art assets these days Deon.

If we're worried about natural resources crowding the map, just reduce their individual impact a bit. Make them provide less of an improvement to yields and happy and health bonuses through various buildings. I'm pretty sure you can alter things to make them appear more densely with a few changes, if I remember discussions in FfH a fair while back about their reagents resource never showing up.

As it is, there are so many natural resources that it impedes trade, especially with the vassal spam and each vassal needing their own. Less varieties of resource, more supply of each one, and more manufactured. Perhaps each manufactory could require multiple supply buildings/resources to prevent these from being oversupplied (18 sources of ammunition, for instance - have, say, each filling factory require 3 collieries and/or 3 sources of metal to build). Likewise, BTW, Supreme Court should require 3 district courthouses. Which reminds me, how about bringing back Big Ben from Rise and Rule?

0100010 · Apr 16, 2009

I agree the manufactured resource spam is excessive and unbalancing. And the bonuses most buildings that provide a manufactured resource is also excessive. For example, there is no reason for me not to build a glasssmith/ammunition factory etc for the +15% commerce bonus, or the production bonus etc it just make sense to boost the city with the bonus, but then I don't really need a dozen glassware or ammunition resources now do I? Drop the bonuses from manufactured resource buildings, the point of the building is to provide said manufactured resource, no other incentive is needed. And to reduce spam and control total quantity, make those buildings require X number of prerequisite buildings, so there wont be a glut of them.

NBAfan · Apr 16, 2009

I agree the manufactured resource spam is excessive and unbalancing. And the bonuses most buildings that provide a manufactured resource is also excessive. For example, there is no reason for me not to build a glasssmith/ammunition factory etc for the +15% commerce bonus, or the production bonus etc it just make sense to boost the city with the bonus, but then I don't really need a dozen glassware or ammunition resources now do I? Drop the bonuses from manufactured resource buildings, the point of the building is to provide said manufactured resource, no other incentive is needed. And to reduce spam and control total quantity, make those buildings require X number of prerequisite buildings, so there wont be a glut of them.

I think this a good idea. I don't think we need additonal resources on the map as there is enough as it is. I would want to replace obsidian with tea.

The fixed borders idea is a good one to.

Dancing Hoskuld · Apr 16, 2009

Bezhukov said:
.... Likewise, BTW, Supreme Court should require 3 district courthouses. ...

It originally required 2 district courthouses but multiple national and world wonders don't work the same way as buildings. (District Courthouse is a national wonder). Multiple national or world wonders means that anyone can build one at no matter how many there already are. If the limit has already bean reached then the oldest goes obsolete. This is a problem in RoM with the chivalric order buildings.

little_cyclone · Apr 16, 2009

0100010 said:
...make those buildings require X number of prerequisite buildings, so there wont be a glut of them.

I like the prereq buildings idea, but think we should maintain the production/commerce/whatever bonus for the buildings if we're going to have significantly less of them in-game.

Nordfeldt · Apr 16, 2009

0100010 said:
I agree the manufactured resource spam is excessive and unbalancing. And the bonuses most buildings that provide a manufactured resource is also excessive. For example, there is no reason for me not to build a glasssmith/ammunition factory etc for the +15% commerce bonus, or the production bonus etc it just make sense to boost the city with the bonus, but then I don't really need a dozen glassware or ammunition resources now do I? Drop the bonuses from manufactured resource buildings, the point of the building is to provide said manufactured resource, no other incentive is needed. And to reduce spam and control total quantity, make those buildings require X number of prerequisite buildings, so there wont be a glut of them.

I agree .

Deon · Apr 16, 2009

You DO need a lot of glassware/ammunition, at least to provide a good trading benefit with other empires. For now often there's just a single salt deposit in the whole world so it makes a monopoly on glass, so you'll need a lot since you can't do most advanced things without glass.

Hydromancerx · Apr 16, 2009

Deon said:
I can easily make any resource icons and static models. I just wanted to ask, are you somehow related to the mod development? Because Zappara didn't ask me to do it, but if he needs it I'd do it fast .

If i say no will it make a difference?

Deon said:
I don't think that "bees" should be a common resource. I mean, common bees are almost everywhere.
Same for honey. However a national wonder which produces 2-3 exceptional "honey" luxury which can be traded sounds nice. Same for exceptional beer/ale (from grain or whatever).

That gives me an idea. There should have a killer bee disaster/event during the modern age where if you have a bee hive building and a laboratory in your city it will cause a plague-like effect of the killer bee outbreak.

zappara · Apr 16, 2009

Deon said:
This is a retexture for "spices" graphics to tea resource, just replace the spices.dds and spices_l.dds with it. It changes "spice fruit" texture to dark leaves and red juice on the masher stone to green. Also changes the "hanging spices" graphics for plantation to hanging leaves.

With your Tea button and spice returexture I can now announce that Tea has been added to the next version.

I've also added Shrimp resource - someone has been asking for it long time.. just can't now remember who...

Nordfeldt said:
How about a new event? Future era event: ALIEN INVASION a mothership lands with a large army of high-tech-nuke-immune-evil-aliens

There's already UFO event in RoM and I think that's the point where I draw the line - so no alien invasion events (though I find that kind of event intresting and it could be used in some RoM module

).

Deon said:
I can easily make any resource icons and static models. I just wanted to ask, are you somehow related to the mod development? Because Zappara didn't ask me to do it, but if he needs it I'd do it fast .

I've considered Bee/Honey resource as I've had graphics for it for a year but no, I won't add that resource. But there's many resources without buttons/icons (I think), I just had to make button + icons for Shrimp resource as those graphics weren't available so if maybe you could help, not just me, but the whole fanatics community by making some new resource graphics.

By the way, see the production lines list from this post. Most of those planned resources lack buttons and icons. They don't need terrain graphics since they are only manufactured resources.

Here's the progress towards v2.7 so far:

Spoiler :

Also found out a way to test civics through debug messages as seen in the attached pic. Higher value means that AI more likely considers to change its civics to that one. This should help in efforts to balance civics better. Note that those values changes throughout the game, depending on various situations like wars etc.

reconverse · Apr 16, 2009

With your Tea button and spice returexture I can now announce that Tea has been added to the next version.

I've also added Shrimp resource - someone has been asking for it long time.. just can't now remember who...

Tea: GREAT!
Shirmp: nice, flavour wise

I've considered Bee/Honey resource as I've had graphics for it for a year but no.

Added: Lead

Good call!

Here's the progress towards v2.7 so far:

Exciting! Looking forward to the new version!

:king:

Dave_Oz · Apr 16, 2009

Nordfeldt said:
How about a new event? Future era event: ALIEN INVASION a mothership lands with a large army of high-tech-nuke-immune-evil-aliens

yes..... YES

zappara · Apr 16, 2009

reconverse said:
Exciting! Looking forward to the new version!

It'll probably take months still to make the new version. Changing early techs is relatively fast process as most of the stuff is already there but totally new future era is going to take lots of time since most of the stuff has to be made from scratch.

Deon · Apr 16, 2009

I'd avoid alien invasions... Or make them a component. When I peacefully live on my continent guarded by submarines and nuke everyone else I don't want some green hippies falling from above

. But as an option it can be funny.

Abraxis · Apr 16, 2009

I still think Hemp should be more valuable.
From wikipedia:

"Hemp seeds contain all the essential amino acids and essential fatty acids necessary to maintain healthy human life"

"hemp was a popular fiber because it is strong and grows quickly; it produces 250% more fiber than cotton"

"Hemp shives are the core of the stem. In EU, they are used for bedding (horse bedding for instance), in construction (hemp concrete) or for horticultural mulch"

"Biofuels such as biodiesel and alcohol fuel can be made from the oils in hemp seeds and stalks, and the fermentation of the plant as a whole, respectively. Filtered hemp oil can be used directly to power diesels. The inventor of the diesel engine, Rudolf Diesel, used hemp oil to power his new engine, and assumed that it would be run in the future on hemp oil."

"Cannabrick construction is construction using the woody inner core from the cannabis plant. This part of the plant is THC free (i.e. hemp) and is used in housing construction."

That's not to mention the the ropes, clothing and canvases, and the fact that it's one of the few plants that will leave the soil more fertile after growth, rather than sucking all the nutrients out like most other crops...

I mean, you can do ANYTHING with this plant! it's Magical, but all it does in ROM is provide 1 happiness

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