Version 2.8 discussion

[Aenarion]

WOWWW!!!!!
ive never seen the RoM modmods section before!!!!!...its wonderful!!!

ok...
looking the section i found interesting the following mods, which I believe should be implemented:
- Meteorolgy Addon by Afforess
- Advanced Nukes Mod by Civ Fuehrer
- the AAranda mods: Eternal speed level, godmaker difficult level and buildings and religion mods!
- The RoM Addons by jooyo, in particular i like bridges and satellites.
The satellites could be "geostationary" on a tile, providing informations about units and cities in the adiacent tiles or providing espionage points if set on an enemy city, helps thwart rival spies or giving support to friendly military units...i dont kno what kind of support... XD

 

[vincentz]

I would like to see culturally linked starts as either a custom option or a modmod.
It would enhance the atmosphere of the game IMO.

 

[Bezhukov]

Zap, 2.8 would be a great time to address some longstanding AI/balance issues:

1. The AI is still cutting down all its forests, then spamming farms in late medieval, then spamming workshops (even on food resource tiles!) in a desperate attempt to get some hammers.

Solution: Disable AI ability to chop forests. Allow farms/cottages to be built on forest tiles. O/W, AI is at too much of a disadvantage to human players that can take advantage of very powerful forest/mill/mines tiles later on.

2. AI still not building fish huts/butcheries. The crux of this problem is that fish huts/butcheries are vastly overpowered mid-game. Food = tiles worked, and given RoM tile improvement options, tiles are much more powerful in RoM (in contrast to specialists/smaller cities with unworked tiles), and given the RoM availability of more happiness options, more population can be readily supported. Percentage food bonus scales too well.

Fix: change fish hut/butchery food bonus to +1 food for (non-cumulative) availability of resource (i.e. if a city has access to fish, it gets 1 extra food, same with shrimp, crab, etc.. no extra food for extra fish). Maybe add mid-game upgrade building with +2 food, but current hut/butchery is producing way too much food (especially with barter now giving food through trade routes). Percentage bonus buildings across the board should be used judiciously, with basic buildings just giving similar lump sum boost (forge could give 1 hammer per mineral resource availability as well)

3. The 80 turn Musket. AI non-core cities never get developed as they spend too many turns trying to get an initial defender built, and RoM requires some basic infra for a city to be decently productive.

Solution: prevent the AI from selecting any build that will take longer than 30/40 turns to complete.

 

[zappara]

Some promotion line ideas that might be used in v2.8:

Combat AI I-VI
Shielding I-III
Armor Upgrades I-III
Weapon Upgrades I-III
Defensive Protocols I-III
Offensive Protocols I-III
Fuzzy Logic
Quantum Algorithms
Hunter-Seeker Algorithms
Rapid Deployment I-III (speed?)
Tactical Analysis I-III
AI 1.0 - 3.0
Automatic Repairs I-III

Already added:
Land Warrior I-III
Stealth I-III
Combat AI 1.0 - 4.0
Self-Destruct
...there was one other promotion line for gunpowder units but can't remember it now - it's too hot here to think (30celsius degrees every day). I haven't really modded anything for a week as it's just too hot to be in front of computer on this weather and I probably stay on low profile the next few weeks if the weather remains the same... I try to play couple RoM games too before I fully go into v2.8 modding mode.

Solution: prevent the AI from selecting any build that will take longer than 30/40 turns to complete.

This is already hardcoded to BtS engine's AI rutines.

There does seem to be a problem with AI players as it looks like they aren't building enough workers and not improving their landscape at the same speed as human player would do. I'm not sure why they behave like this but I'm debugging it while playing my RoM games.

1. The people at WoC have provided a program to do the conversion of the mod for you. Although it doesn't do everything.

I've had the program over year but even with it is time consuming task to change everything to modular format. Another thing is that once everything would be converted I'd be using 3-4x more time to editing the mod just because I would have to edit hundreds xml files instead of just a few (think of modular units vs. 1 unit info xml file in RoM). I rather have everything of the same object types in one file. I don't mind if someone else converts RoM to fully modular format, and in fact RoM was already converted to modular format by Johny Smith (v2.62) which I think could have been used with WoC... though Johny's version didn't convert each object to individual modules.

 

[DRJ]

Hello Zappara, for 2.8, do you think it could be possible to settle a city in cultural enemy territory - if the settling requirements are met (distance to next city/settable terrain)?

I even would argue that if there are two cultures at war with each other, the ability to actually settle 1 tile from next (enemy) city should be activated as well.

You couldn't settle in other civs land without declaring war, of course.

The culture in newly founded city would be a lot in favour of the original owner of the land, thus promoting the chances of a soon cultural flip in the enclave/front city.

 

[AAranda]

Just discover this thread and had a look at the posts
It seems that no one has said a word about galleys/war galleys /triremes , and i would really like to have them back to the impossibility to cross oceans
Also , i think , RoM has reached a position of a "almost perfection". I mean , no many changes are needed , perhaps Zappara would think about adding to the RoM mod some of the modmods , not talking about mines , there's a lot of good modmods out there
One more thing , i've seen there's a club of loosers in the try to merge mercenaries mod to RoM and i want my place on it .... i tried and failed as you all , not surprise as i'm a python idiot

 

[aender]

kk i'm a mess here trying to get afforess's, vincents, and aar.. religion modmods to work...its late and i think i finally have them all installed right, but in the process i had to reinstall rom...so now in order to check i need to turn modules on...which file?...nm found it...but ty....i really should goto bed but, pardon, damn it i want it to work so i can start off playing with my coffee tomorrow

 

[aender]

dont ask me why..i play on a laptop..a decent one but still a laptop...if i get all of this to work i'm only gonna be able to play on a 6 by 6 map

 

[2ndimpression]

On one of the recent posts Zap mentioned that he might be interested in taking a look at the future of religion and how it evolves later in the game.

A couple of ideas:

Religion civic ideas

Enforced atheism - such as communist countries, with the ability to produce 'inquisition' units to purge all religion from a city

Organic atheism/secular - leaving things as they are with no state religion/ religious tolerance

Encouraged atheism - No religion spread, with a big push in schools to teach science etc. I think this would come later in the game.

To encourage change it may be interesting that when specific scientific technologies are reseached they have an effect on religious civics. For example - when 'Theory of evolution' is researched those with a religious civic receive an unhappy face (maybe more for intolerant?).

Other technologies that could cause unhappyness or other changes could be:
Theory of Evolution, Big bang theory, Anthropology (or history of the human race), Abiogenesis (the inception of life) etc. Maybe the discovery of life on other planets?

 

[cheesemijit]

i don't think the athiest civic should cause unhappiness, but war unhappiness. and an enforced athiesm would be cool, i would love to do a cultural reform where i purge all cities of religion after becoming communist. also if i had a unit to purge corporations from a city that would be cool.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Slavery\Communist\Caste Civics all need to be curtailed\revised so that the AI will use the other civics and be stronger.

These 3 Civics, which the AI loves, causes the AI long term damage and makes mid to late game for weak AI opponents. This IMHO the reason many players complain that RoM is too easy.

The early Eras seem to be where the challenge is once you reach Industrial the conclusion and outcome of the game is usually in place. And it's just a matter of mop up duty for the later eras. Since RoM 2.3 (iirc this is when Slavery Civic was introduced) I've yet to have a game reach Modern Era. And I play Giant maps with only 7-9 AI on Archipelago or Island maps so ALL AI have a chance to develop somewhat before the wars break out. An isolated AI should flourish during the Ancient and Classical periods under these settings. But the aggressive AI's will have settled upon Slavery/caste early and use all their resources for huge stacks of lower level units. Leaving their cities underdeveloped Except for Military buildings and basic food production.

Communist Civic comes near Industrial Era and , for me, is a useless civic. But maybe that was Lawrie and Big Heb's idea for it. To be an unobtrusive Civic that doesn't really affect any segment of the game leaving all the other Civics to do their thing?

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hi, I have just posted dhzEnslavement mod in the mod components forum. I built it and tested it under RoM. So any modmoders out there maybe you can see a way to include it. Maybe even Zappara.

The example rules I included makes barbarian ships a bit more of a problem because if they win there is a chance 25% that they will capture the ship instead creating a new barbarian ship.

My intent was to put out a RoM specific version but time has got away from me, I wont have internet access from next week for about six weeks. Examples I had thought of:-

Captured animals
- build menagerie in capital eg wolf builds "menagerie - wolf exibit" gives a small boost to knowledge.
- build hunters lodge - gives all recon units woodsman promotion
- builds extensions to holy shrine allowing special unit to be built

Captured enemy ships - prize ship that can be converted to cash or hammers or upgraded to a ship.

and so forth.

 

[GONdorman]

Zap, 2.8 would be a great time to address some longstanding AI/balance issues:

1. The AI is still cutting down all its forests, then spamming farms in late medieval, then spamming workshops (even on food resource tiles!) in a desperate attempt to get some hammers.

Solution: Disable AI ability to chop forests. Allow farms/cottages to be built on forest tiles. O/W, AI is at too much of a disadvantage to human players that can take advantage of very powerful forest/mill/mines tiles later on.

Have you read this? It´s somewhat relevant to your interests

Now, for my little gripes/suggestions on RoM:

- Lumbermills should be available earlier. By the time Paper is discovered, most woods have been chopped out. Machinery maybe?
- There should be some civic (besides Slavery) giving a small boost to lumbermills. Regulated or Proletariat perhaps?
- I think Public Works civic should give +1 happiness on largest cities
- Personally, I´ve never seen the AI use Church [welfare]
- State Church is somewhat underpowered compared to Free Church, mainly because the Free Church doesn´t harm science, gives more happiness and has lower upkeep. So I think it should be tweaked a bit in one of the following ways:

1. When running State Church, all religious buildings (or only state religion buildings, dunno) would give an espionage bonus
2. Free Church would give -20% science, and State Church -5% science. It would be realistic because real world Free Churches (like, say, the Catholic church in the European Middle Ages) based its power on the society´s ignorance and therefore was an enemy of most, if not all, technological changes. A State Church, on the other hand, would base its power on being part of the State, therefore not needing to hinder scientific advance, although the only presence of a strong religious belief would be somewhat hindering in itself
3. Both of them would be nice actually

- The President civic isn´t very useful. It has both high upkeep and additional cost per military unit, and the benefits it provides aren´t very big. Personally, I think it should give:

High Upkeep
+20% Great General Emergence
+3 XP to Military units
+1 Happiness From Broadcast Tower
+3 Happiness From National TV Station
+1 Gold Support Cost per Military Unit
Decreases Local and National Rebelliousness

And now, some general questions:

- What is the RL difference between Subsidized and Socialized wlefare? They lokk pretty similar to me...
- Is it possible to make a technology, when discovered, give unhappiness when using a particular civic (For example, after you research Liberalism, Caste civic gives more unhappiness)?
- Is it possible to make the AI adjust their economic strategy to the civics they currently have (for example, if the AI chooses Feudal, make it focus on building farms and such)?
- When you are about to start a game you can choose the age you start in. This setting determines, among other things, which buildings your cities have when you build them. Now my question is, ¿is it possible to start in the Ancient Age and, when you build a new city in, say, the Middle Ages, to have some buildings in the city for free?

Hmmm... that post was somewhat long

 

[aender]

1. When running State Church, all religious buildings (or only state religion buildings, dunno) would give an espionage bonus
2. Free Church would give -20% science, and State Church -5% science. It would be realistic because real world Free Churches (like, say, the Catholic church in the European Middle Ages) based its power on the society´s ignorance and therefore was an enemy of most, if not all, technological changes. A State Church, on the other hand, would base its power on being part of the State, therefore not needing to hinder scientific advance, although the only presence of a strong religious belief would be somewhat hindering in itself
3. Both of them would be nice actually
]

seems backwards to me like the catholic church in middle ages is an example of state church and definetily did hinder research and free church is toome more like a free society which would enable free thinking thus benifit research

 

[Bezhukov]

Slavery\Communist\Caste Civics all need to be curtailed\revised so that the AI will use the other civics and be stronger.

These 3 Civics, which the AI loves, causes the AI long term damage and makes mid to late game for weak AI opponents. This IMHO the reason many players complain that RoM is too easy.

The early Eras seem to be where the challenge is once you reach Industrial the conclusion and outcome of the game is usually in place. And it's just a matter of mop up duty for the later eras. Since RoM 2.3 (iirc this is when Slavery Civic was introduced) I've yet to have a game reach Modern Era. And I play Giant maps with only 7-9 AI on Archipelago or Island maps so ALL AI have a chance to develop somewhat before the wars break out. An isolated AI should flourish during the Ancient and Classical periods under these settings. But the aggressive AI's will have settled upon Slavery/caste early and use all their resources for huge stacks of lower level units. Leaving their cities underdeveloped Except for Military buildings and basic food production.

Communist Civic comes near Industrial Era and , for me, is a useless civic. But maybe that was Lawrie and Big Heb's idea for it. To be an unobtrusive Civic that doesn't really affect any segment of the game leaving all the other Civics to do their thing?

JosEPh

You're correct about the problem (AI industrial death), but incorrect about the solution, as Slavery/Caste/Communism are, in fact, the strongest civics in their classes, if one can handle the happiness/commerce/science hit, as they maximize hammer output. Hey, isn't this the mod with all the trade routes that goose commerce and all the religions that goose happiness, that just require hammers to take advantage of? Thought so.

Actually been experimenting with the new Mercantilism (and even Barter!), as getting hammers from trade routes really makes island cities cook. Working well so far.

Of course, the AI likes slavery for the pop rushing, which, given the greatly increased yields of RoM tiles, is almost always suboptimal. The problem with the AI is that it's playing BtS, while the human gets to play RoM.

 

[aender]

Hi, I have just posted dhzEnslavement mod in the mod components forum. I built it and tested it under RoM. So any modmoders out there maybe you can see a way to include it. Maybe even Zappara.

The example rules I included makes barbarian ships a bit more of a problem because if they win there is a chance 25% that they will capture the ship instead creating a new barbarian ship.

My intent was to put out a RoM specific version but time has got away from me, I wont have internet access from next week for about six weeks. Examples I had thought of:-

Captured animals
- build menagerie in capital eg wolf builds "menagerie - wolf exibit" gives a small boost to knowledge.
- build hunters lodge - gives all recon units woodsman promotion
- builds extensions to holy shrine allowing special unit to be built

Captured enemy ships - prize ship that can be converted to cash or hammers or upgraded to a ship.

and so forth.

sounds perfect now just use this to enable privateers to capture enemy ships also

 

[Bezhukov]

I play marathon Deity/Immortal, and for all Zap's wonderful efforts, this is not a game past Rifles, and never really has been. It's the AI's hills versus all my tiles, and the AI size 10-15 cities vs my size 25-45 ones, which makes a huge difference with all the trade routes floating around.

In the industrial era, lumbermills are among the most powerful tiles - the AI can't build them, as it has invariably chopped down all it's forests. As for city size, I think it doesn't like growing into unhealthiness, and since it doesn't have any forests, it naturally hits that limit early, and since it doesn't have any forests, it lacks the hammers to build health helper buildings.

I'm also still flipping millenia-old cities that have never built a fish hut, butchery, or forge. Maybe give the buildings to the AI free? Either that or nerf their overwhelming power a bit - once you can trade for the required resources, they are a must have in every city. Food = tiles worked/greater trade route yield = power.

The AI likes caste and slavery because they are still overpowered if you can handle the happiness hit (and with one temple giving +2 happy, that's a breeze once you hit medieval - maybe non-state temples should give some bonus other than happiness? Require a special resource from each one to give happiness/health?) as Slavery is like being in a constant Golden Age and Caste is even more ridiculous with the food boost.

The only challenge in this game is surviving a medieval unit rush. There is no late game at all. The AI can (barely) hang on tech-wise via trade routes, but it lacks the hammers to build the more expensive industrial units. And with bombards/cannon (rightly) nerfed, even medieval is much easier. BTW, I'm not sure that the AI knows how to surmount the siege workshop/cannon forge hurdle to even get siege units built...

Zap, you're the most talented mod creator there is, but you need to draft some playtesting/AI training sidekicks for the mod to be playable.

 

[aender]

kk i have a good idea this time...well most are, at least i think so,

i'm at the stage in my current game where both ai left are building privateers 2 or 3 per turn each
oh just so you know deity small snail........3 continents and started with 7 civs and then barbs civs but now down to us 3 each with a continent

anyway my ships of the line and iron frigates are having no prob dealing with these privateers and quit franckly i love the great generals i'll get from this set up...this is just now happening and will prolly last the next 3-400 turns or so...been here b4......anyways lol rambling on about my game..show how much i like it, i guess......my idea is to be able to set up a patrol area like say a naval ship give it a certain area and it moves back and forth...kinna like a securtiy guard at the museum walks the halls back and forth, any way with this patrol area you could set up an area along your borders and instead of having ships sentry every other tile along border for protection you could have much fewer ships patroling said border...also could work for privateers to operate a certain area idk if this is possible but is an idea

 

[GONdorman]

seems backwards to me like the catholic church in middle ages is an example of state church and definetily did hinder research and free church is toome more like a free society which would enable free thinking thus benifit research

No...

The Catholic Church in Medieval Europe is an example of Free Church. The clergymen were not part of the state (although they did cooperate with it), and they held big political/social power ("We carry the word of God", "We represent God", etc random b ullshit which everybody believed) and economical power (lands granted to them by the nobility, in exchange for the Church to support the establishment "spiritually"). However, in order for the society (the peasantry and minor nobility) to believe such stuff, the Church needed things to stay as they were. An example of this is the Church´s prosecution of Galileo Galilei, who said that the Sun, not the Earth (as the CHurch and most sciencists believed), was center of the universe (Both were wrong actually). If someone proved that things the Church said were wrong, the whole belief could fall apart, and with it the power of the clergy

I don´t know any actual example of a RL "State Church", but from common sense I guess that the clergy is powerful because it´s part of the State, threfore not needing to say b ullshit, therefore not needing the society to be ignorant, therefore not arch enemies of technological advances and social changes

OMG censorship!

 

[Nightguard]

One thing that I have noticed about the Modern Mines, and actually noticed the same thing with trying to build Shaft Mines. Both of them can only be built on resources currently. I'm not sure if this is intentional, or if it's a slight issue with the way they were designed. I'm inclined to think this is an error, as the Modern Mine shows that it has a small chance of discovering resources, which of course is impossible on a tile that already has a resouce.

Other than that, I'm thoroughly enjoying my current playthrough. I like playing for a tech finish, as it lets me see everything that's in the game, so I'll probably have a few more observations by the time this game is completed.