version 9 playtest feedback

[davidlallen]

Version 9 is released on August 22, 2008. Please put feedback for this version or any newer version in this thread.

 

[GeoModder]

Now that I think of it:

David, there's always a 'runtime' text document and 'unitcount' csv file when I run your mod. I reckon the mod creates and needs these files for keeping tabs on units, but is it possible to let those files be generated within the mod itself instead of in the C:\ drive?

 

[arkham4269]

I got sent a message about the new version, but the link to the changelog didn't work: anywhere else it can be found?

 

[davidlallen]

The changelog is linked from the first post in the welcome thread. It is at this link.

 

[davidlallen]

David, there's always a 'runtime' text document and 'unitcount' csv file when I run your mod. I reckon the mod creates and needs these files for keeping tabs on units, but is it possible to let those files be generated within the mod itself instead of in the C:\ drive?

In version 9, the unitcount.csv file is no longer created. I should probably disable the runtime.txt file for release, it is mostly useful during development. But, I am pretty sure some people keep their "program files" directory read-only when playing; so putting it inside the mod area may be worse. The best approach is probably to write this information into the existing civ log files. I could probably figure out how to do that.

 

[KillerClowns]

Won a Capitol victory as New Australia, at my usual level, Noble. Only the Aquarians founded another capitol, although this could be mostly because I refused to trade Diplomacy with anyone. The Aquarians didn't seem that aggressive about countering the spread of my capitol's advocates, though.
I'm going to start another game as Peter, shoot for something a bit more warmongering.

 

[davidlallen]

Won a Capitol victory as New Australia, at my usual level, Noble. Only the Aquarians founded another capitol, although this could be mostly because I refused to trade Diplomacy with anyone. The Aquarians didn't seem that aggressive about countering the spread of my capitol's advocates, though.
I'm going to start another game as Peter, shoot for something a bit more warmongering.

Does it seem easier or harder than the previous version? Because Christoper gets advocates for half cost, it may be easier to get the capitol victory.

 

[Refar]

I played a bit - only about 100 turns into one game... Not enought to try everything new... But some observations...

* The new pillaging animals are great. For the first time i relly felt like i
need more than one defender per city. They really force to have good defense
(and some spare troops in the cities). I hope the AI does know...

* I noticed a very stupid AI behaviour on workers - i snagged 7 in 100 turns, which is not my personal record, but still pretty good - they don't (they could) retreat even with a hostile military unit (My, and not right after declaring the war) right next to them. I did not notice this on previous versions...
I recon it was a known issue on some BTS versions... Not sure about 3.17... What version is the DLL based upon ?
(In this context - a while ago we had a discussion about AI doing poor in economy - and one theory was it might be die to loss of workers... Had you collected some statistics on this ?)

* Roaming Horses should pop at random (and possible more than once) when
entering the plot. Right now they allways seem to come the first time you
enter.
So enter, kill, send unprotected workers...

* Popped Small Arms from the hut... It would have been 32 turns worth of
research at that point.
Doesn't seem right... Leaning to think, that no tech's
should be popped from Hut's at all.
Maybe replace by "Knowledge of a elder living in the Survivor Village helped our
researchers" (Converted into some for the current tech.)

* Forests should be good for something (I think i might have moaned about this before - sorry if i am repeating it...)
No Chop- is fine. But... Maybe +1 on the plot from working them (as per normal game)
or/and possible "Hunters Lodge" improvements...

* Cities "Accidentally" built on oil make the ressource invalid ? Or will that pop trucks ?
Maybe a building, that can pop a truck ? Availably only if the city is actually on the oil ?

* How does animal spawn wark ? My impression is - there is a few turns nothing,
then on the same turn a lot of them do pop everywhere... Then again a few turns
nothing... This one i had on my list from my previous games on past versions as well, so it's not just from todays 100 turns...

 

[countjackula]

Feedback from first game of version 09:

• 
  I like the reduced movement speed on highways for animals. None of my early units got surprise ganked by wolves, etc coming at me from the fog. My first survivor scouts miss the extra movement bonus from traveling pre-war highway stretches, but the change is logical. Highway speed bonuses for vehicles only is a good change.

• Some of the leaderhead art could stand to be improved, but it's coming along. The new leaderhead background images are really great. They enhance the thematic feel. /clap

• only had one Deathclaw come into my borders to sack a farm. Was hoping to see more invasive barbarian animals, but it was cool to see this new feature is indeed working. Will see if it is more frequent in next game. Hope so.

• enjoying the themed city names. Very cool to control Sing Sing and Alcatraz.

• still had a good amount of tanks popping for me, but not so many as before. They were a "bonus" only. Using more and more units that I previously haven't.

• got the Tankbuster hero. Thought that was a very cool addition. Look forward to getting some of the others to check them out.

• got two cargo trucks (nice!), but the civilpedia entry on the bonus they give could be more specific. I feel like I essentially wasted one of them (food truck), and the other while good I should have used elsewhere (medic truck). First time for me to get either of those, so lack of familiarity with them didn't help.

• fuel trucks were perfect with two refineries. I didn't have enough to support vehicles waging war from coast to coast, but I had enough to strike at my closest enemies. This is the first game where I didn't curse about fuel truck spam or even delete a single fuel truck. My first two were used as scouts though. /thumbs up on finding the right balance

• I like that guardian tech was pushed back a little. Got more use out of crossbowmen than in any previous game although I can see a lucky hut making them obsolete before you even make your first one. Edit: If you can disable small arms tech from being popped via a goody hut it would help keep the starting arms race balanced. Good idea for early game flavor (makes beginning monsters and punks more of a threat, which actually is the fun part of starting a new game).

• I didn't miss the early appearing low-tech punks on choppers, I rarely built them myself, but maybe if they had better weapons (souped up machine guns?) they could be reintroduced to a later stage of the game for that touch of savage road punk Mad Max flavor they brought? Edit: Don't even have to change the crossbow graphic. Call them harpoons or ballistas instead and up their attack strength

• looked like everyone had a pretty good starting position. Nice to start on more even playing fields. In previous version, some starts really hosed my or an AI players chances. Also, preexisting radiation didn't seem as bad this time around. Did I just get lucky?

• opened up the world builder and looked at the world map. Cried inside to see two beautiful islands capable of supporting 2-3 cities with untouched goody huts on them. If I hadn't opened the WB though I wouldn't have known they were there.

• for such a Utopian idealist, Brandi sure is a b!tch. She invariably makes more demands of me than any other civ. This isn't something new to 09, just something that has stood out for awhile now. Why is she such a demanding cow? Of all of the leaders, I think she should be the most peaceful and willing to share a granola bar. Instead, she wants all of your granola bars and your tofurkey sandwich too. Edit: I should have guessed she was based on Catherine the Greatly Annoying. I hated Catherine and her face slapping in vanilla Civ. I very rarely was able to maintain peaceful relations with her, and invariably had to take her out because of all of her demands. The only other leader who was as annoying for me to deal with was Isabella when we followed different religions.

• enemy vision spread pretty fast among the AI players. Faster than before. It was incentive to start an earlier war on them than I would have previously. Not necessarily bad, maybe even a strategic enhancement.

• UTE graphical upgrades just made cool even cooler

• the horse icon is rather unhorse-like. What is that really a picture of?

• why no commerce bonus (1 coin) for plots along river edge? I don't think this is new, but something I noticed especially today as I had good river access in most cities

• I am confused by wild horses. I thought if you attacked them and won you captured wild horses. These could then be relocated and dropped somewhere within your borders to create a horse resource node. Instead, they just died when I attacked them or defended against them. What is their purpose? Are they just another barbarian creature spawn like any other?

Saturday afternoon, where hast thou gone? I had fun trying v09. Thank you.

Edit: about Refar's comment concerning workers and dumb AI behavior... I was bombarding an AI city and the AI sent out a worker right beside my attack stack. Dumb? In this case, yes.

 

[KillerClowns]

Does it seem easier or harder than the previous version? Because Christoper gets advocates for half cost, it may be easier to get the capitol victory.

It was actually a bit too easy. The Industrious half of his traits also meant I could, by aiming for Diplomacy from turn 1 and not trading it (or its prereqs, for that matter) get the first Capitol. Sure, I had to kiss Mick's toes every few turns and throw him some gold... but with my influence spreading across the world, it was a small price to pay.

 

[Jabie]

Downloaded v09 but have been too busy to play it through properly yet. One discrepancy, more from a flavour persective than a gameplay/balance one, Education enables you to build Safety *and* Research, but schools are available at Civic Projects?!? I'd be tempted to move School to Education, Safety to Civic Projects and have Archives (+10% Science) at Bureaucracy for the early science boost.

 

[Refar]

I think the techtree needs a complete revamp - i don't like these mega expensive techs right from the start, nor a single tech giving multiple bonuses (like unlocking multiple civics, terrain imporvements, etc.) - It would be better from the gameplay point of view to have two or 3 cheaper techs instead, making techtree progression more smooth, looking cooler (because a big techtree is just cooler than small one ) and at the same time retaining the somewhat slow progress (because you would have to tech multiple techs to get the same...)

Brandy AI is certainly weird. She did that in every game i played since 0.7 (not allways to me). And right now she is somewhere across continent (i didn't even know exactly where, before i got city visibility from Vassal) and she does not even like me... Gandhi AI i a guesing... He can be a PITA about demanding/asking stuff as well....

 

[arkham4269]

Brandy AI is certainly weird. She did that in every game i played since 0.7 (not always to me). And right now she is somewhere across continent (i didn't even know exactly where, before i got city visibility from Vassal) and she does not even like me... Gandhi AI i a guessing... He can be a PITA about demanding/asking stuff as well....

In my first game, which I'm still playing, she did this to me as well, and I'm playing Tinker and am not the strongest player, just the one with the most points.

Have a question to ask. Is there any play where I can learn how to change the info on the leaders, what they say, their names and most importantly their city names? This used to be a snap in Civ III. Plus, for a person with almost no graphic skills, how hard is it to create the flags? Any wiki or cheat sheet on this? I ask because I'd like to (for my own use) to use leader names, city names and the like from different SCA (that being Society for Creative Anachronism) Kingdom names for different Civs and then use all the barony & shire names for the cities. Plus I thought it might be cool (if possible at my entry level of experience) to try to make their civ symbol to be the kingdom's coat of arms.

That and I want to change the Aquarian's info. As a neo-pagan, I tend to hate it when non-neo-pagans try to do people liker her up as they tend to over-state certain believes or understate others. Although I like how she's imperialistic since this can make sense. "We cannot allow the world to retraced the steps that led to the Doom of Man(tm)...we will show them a better way...by force if necessary."

 

[davidlallen]

Brandy AI is certainly weird. She did that in every game i played since 0.7 (not allways to me). And right now she is somewhere across continent (i didn't even know exactly where, before i got city visibility from Vassal) and she does not even like me... Gandhi AI i a guesing... He can be a PITA about demanding/asking stuff as well....

Catherine, actually. If you look at this link, you can see which AI is used for which LH. The only change I made was to bump up the "likelihood to vassalize" by 10 points for all the LH except Viktor.

 

[davidlallen]

Is there any play where I can learn how to change the info on the leaders, what they say, their names and most importantly their city names?

Plus, for a person with almost no graphic skills, how hard is it to create the flags? Any wiki or cheat sheet on this?

City names are a snap. Please see file Fury Road/Assets/XML/Civillizations/CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml. Edit this in a plain text editor like notepad. Make a backup copy. Then search for the civilization you want to change, such as CIVILIZATION_HOPEVILLE. Under that search for "<City>". The first city is the capitol. All the other cities are listed underneath. There are some civs which have "default" city names. For your purpose, this doesn't make any difference, you can just replace the names like TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_FOO with My City.

For leader names, see file Fury Road/Assets/XML/Text/FuryRoadLeaders.xml (not .txt). Search for the leader name in upper case like this:

<Tag>TXT_KEY_LEADER_CHRISTOPHER</Tag>
<English>Christopher</English>

You can just change "Christopher" to whatever you want.

For flags, it is a little more involved. I learned from this link with more general references found from this link. Depending on how well you can figure out the file structure and use a tool like Photoshop, this may be easy or hard.

That and I want to change the Aquarian's info. As a neo-pagan, I tend to hate it when non-neo-pagans try to do people like her up as they tend to over-state certain believes or understate others. Although I like how she's imperialistic since this can make sense.

That is interesting. Stevie of the Aquarians is one of the few remaining LH *without* any background apart from "hippy" city names. If you could suggest a more detailed background which would be "reasonable" neo-pagan, that would be helpful.

 

[davidlallen]

It was actually a bit too easy. The Industrious half of his traits also meant I could, by aiming for Diplomacy from turn 1 and not trading it (or its prereqs, for that matter) get the first Capitol.

I have found that many of the civs start building capitols around turn 180. If I am well on my way to a capitol victory by then, I may be impossible to stop; but by turn 200, say, my percentage is almost always dropping due to the other capitols. What turn was your victory? It may be that "organized" is too powerful, maybe 2/3 cost instead of 1/2 cost for advocates would be better. On the other hand, if you can get similarly easy victories using other traits, the whole capitol victory may need to be adjusted.

 

[davidlallen]

* The new pillaging animals are great. [...] I hope the AI does know...

Good point. I have not done anything specifically about that. But I doubt the AI allows barbs/animals to just wander around in friendly territory.

* I noticed a very stupid AI behaviour on workers - i snagged 7 in 100 turns

I know that one of the bullet points about 3.17 was better threat detection for workers. I had not done any side by side comparisons in vanilla, let alone in Fury Road. I assume the DLL I am using is based on 3.17, but I don't know how to tell. I will double check with jeckel. I have not yet collected any statistics about AI workers lost to animals -- that's still on the to-do list.

* Roaming Horses should pop at random (and possible more than once) when entering the plot.

Yes, I was aiming for a predictable effect like "the villagers are hostile!". I was not aiming for a repeating problem, just a one time nasty surprise.

* Popped Small Arms from the hut... It would have been 32 turns worth of research at that point. Doesn't seem right... Leaning to think, that no tech's should be popped from Hut's at all. Maybe replace by "Knowledge of a elder living in the Survivor Village helped our researchers" (Converted into some for the current tech.)

I haven't dug into how goody huts work very much. Maybe Small Arms is too powerful to pop, that is an easy change. I do not think the goody hut can directly give points towards a tech. Of course it can be done by rewriting the goody hut stuff in python instead of using the default engine, but that is more work. If I turn off bGoodyTech for Small Arms, does that help "enough"?

* Forests should be good for something (I think i might have moaned about this before - sorry if i am repeating it...) No Chop- is fine. But... Maybe +1 on the plot from working them (as per normal game) or/and possible "Hunters Lodge" improvements...

(Still) on the to-do list.

* Cities "Accidentally" built on oil make the ressource invalid ? Or will that pop trucks ? Maybe a building, that can pop a truck ? Availably only if the city is actually on the oil ?

You are right, this is a bug. The code specifically hunts for oil well improvements, and a city on an oil resource doesn't count. It should.

* How does animal spawn wark ? My impression is - there is a few turns nothing, then on the same turn a lot of them do pop everywhere... Then again a few turns nothing...

You may be able to tell how it works if you turn on the "full view" (ctrl-z) before your first turn, on a tiny map. Also the key alt-c produces a one line message with some statistics. At the end of each turn, the code counts how many animals are present. Then it counts how many unowned squares there are and divides by iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal (GameInfo/CIV4HandicapInfos.xml); this gives the "desired" number of animals. If there are too few animals, they are added. So at the end of turn 1, a full set of animals spawn. Thereafter, in each turn when animals are killed, a few more animals are spawned. So except for the first turn, there should be no "bursts" of animal production.

 

[davidlallen]

Fast feedback from first game of version 09:

Thanks for the detailed feedback! It sounds like I have achieved a lot of my goals for tuning things up.

Some of the leaderhead art could stand to be improved, but it's coming along. The new leaderhead background images are really great. They enhance the thematic feel. /clap

This is the first release where I have put in the animated LH by default. I have removed the "least post-apo" LH, but a few of them still look "medieval". I think Tinker is probably the worst now. Which ones do you think could benefit the most from a graphical update?

got two cargo trucks (nice!), but the civilpedia entry on the bonus they give could be more specific. I feel like I essentially wasted one of them (food truck), and the other while good I should have used elsewhere (medic truck).

I'll look into making the civilopedia clearer. The various buildings are listed in the Wonders tab, but maybe the name of the cargo trucks do not link clearly enough to the buildings. The food truck is a good idea, but it's only worth "half a refugee", more or less. Is there some different effect I could give for finding a cache of food?

The horse icon is rather unhorse-like. What is that really a picture of? [...] I am confused by wild horses. I thought if you attacked them and won you captured wild horses. These could then be relocated and dropped somewhere within your borders to create a horse resource node. Instead, they just died when I attacked them or defended against them. What is their purpose? Are they just another barbarian creature spawn like any other?

The icon is a pretty psychotic-looking biting horse. It's kind of a subtle clue that the horses may hurt you on the first encounter. It works just like a goody hut encounter with hostile villagers: the barbarians (horses) pop up, attack you on their turn, and then move away if they survive. After that the horse resource is normal. It's just supposed to be a nasty one time surprise ... Geez! Nothing out here is safe!

why no commerce bonus (1 coin) for plots along river edge? I don't think this is new, but something I noticed especially today as I had good river access in most cities

I should add a motorboat tech to enable trading on rivers and better food yield on coastal plots. That is getting to be the most popular request.

 

[Refar]

You may be able to tell how it works if you turn on the "full view" (ctrl-z) before your first turn, on a tiny map. Also the key alt-c produces a one line message with some statistics. At the end of each turn, the code counts how many animals are present. Then it counts how many unowned squares there are and divides by iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal (GameInfo/CIV4HandicapInfos.xml); this gives the "desired" number of animals. If there are too few animals, they are added. So at the end of turn 1, a full set of animals spawn. Thereafter, in each turn when animals are killed, a few more animals are spawned. So except for the first turn, there should be no "bursts" of animal production.

I will check using these tools.

 

[jefmart1]

WOW!!!!! This is awesome! So far from the original version its scary. The graphics are amazing and really add to the feel.

A couple of notes/suggestions:

Make Copper a requirement to build the Ammunition Factory (brass is copper, tin, and zinc; but mostly copper).

You need a way to scrub fallout, maybe a late game tech that allows that action.

Need UUs for each civ...

I didn't see any chopper units? I thought the barbs had them?