version 9 playtest feedback

I'm playing "Children of the Fire" and I built my Capitol but I didn't found any Vision. Looking in the Civolopedia, there doesn't seem to be a way to found my Vision.

This does seem to imply that I'm in for a tough time trying to win a Vision victory. :nuke:

UPDATE: I even went into the WorldBuilder and flagged my city with it's already built capitol as having the CoF Vision and it didn't take.
 
Make Copper a requirement to build the Ammunition Factory (brass is copper, tin, and zinc; but mostly copper).

You need a way to scrub fallout, maybe a late game tech that allows that action.

Need UUs for each civ...

I didn't see any chopper units? I thought the barbs had them?

I agree with this as well as the previous comment about boats being a popular request. Think the 'river port' building from Rise of Mankind mod would be really good.

As for making copper a requirement, I'm not sure. I've pointed out a few times that a lot of this depends on the scale of the game, both in time and in size of units.

If the game scale is short (turns seem to be 1/2 a year? now) and any given unit is small (2-20 vehicles, 50 or so infantry and 30 or so Cavalry) then I think there is plenty of copper left in wires and the like. As most people know these days, there are wires in all sorts of things which metal thieves are stealing from like light pools and the like.

However, I could see this game having a bit of a reverse of the standard game in time in that later game might shift to having longer timed turns to represent that the civilization is getting back on it's feet and is able to start doing more large scale projects that take more time and are field units that are larger. If this is the case, I would think that many of the later units/weapons might have a resource requirement since you've already scavaged up the resources in the early game and now with larger units, you need more natural resources to get by.

I also believe that the food to city size might need to be tweak, if possible to show that for the early part of the game, the way cities would expand would be mostly by refugees coming in, brought in by the lure of safety. I mean if every turn is a 1/2 year, then it takes 30 turns for a baby to go from birth to a 'decent' breeding age of 15 so while food is important to feed a growing population, time constrains how fast your cities are going to grow naturally beyond that of refugees coming in.

Again this probably more work than it's worth, but it might be worth it because it works to help players who are trying to win via a more pacifistic approach. I mean a player who works to grow his culture and build defensive works (since they're not going to focus on aggression) the side-affect is that refugees will hear about their culture due to the culture boast and would want to stay due to the high safety. Thus they would grow faster. The flip side of this would be aggressive cultures would have a bit harder time just cranking out nothing but combat units since they would have small cities.

Once again, I really feel that different paths to victory need to be viable. Obviously in this mod, combat is important, but it seems to me that there should be a penalty for just focusing on combat. I mean even Despots have to worry over time about restless peasants. So, can you keep your empire together long enough to get an army big enough to take the cultured, but safe Civ next door?
 
I'm playing "Children of the Fire" and I built my Capitol but I didn't found any Vision. Looking in the Civolopedia, there doesn't seem to be a way to found my Vision.

That is odd. It seems to have worked for other players. If you still have the save game, could you go into the capitol (religion) screen and see which capitols exist? There is no specific popup or announcement when you found a relgion. You get a turn of anarchy, and it shows up in the capitol screen. If it's there, then what I need is some kind of popup so it's harder to miss.

If it's not there, I may be able to learn something from the save game. It's also possible you had some funny python error. I assume you don't have python exceptions or logging, so I couldn't investigate that. If a few people report this type of problem, I will investigate more.
 
I really feel that different paths to victory need to be viable.

I agree. I think most players will have to do something towards a capitol victory, even if it's only defensive. A domination victory is possible, especially if you get a lot of civs capitulating to you. I hope a safety victory is possible, given the new buildings in version 8, but I don't think anybody has tried it yet. If you have some other suggestions about "peaceful victories", it's something we could explore further.
 
That is odd. It seems to have worked for other players. If you still have the save game, could you go into the capitol (religion) screen and see which capitols exist? There is no specific popup or announcement when you found a relgion. You get a turn of anarchy, and it shows up in the capitol screen. If it's there, then what I need is some kind of popup so it's harder to miss.

If it's not there, I may be able to learn something from the save game. It's also possible you had some funny python error. I assume you don't have python exceptions or logging, so I couldn't investigate that. If a few people report this type of problem, I will investigate more.

I'll check it tomorrow as I've turned off my game machine. However, I built my capitol really early in the game and when it was finished nothing happened. Since I like to play a new version without really reading the changelog a lot (so I can be sort of surprised) I didn't think much of it. Yet much later in the game (about when I was about 1/2 way through the Broadcast of the Wastelands) the Hopeville people created their vision and a few turns later the New Romans did. I went to the religion screen at first and Hopeville was listed as was CoF, but CoF was listed as not having a Capitol. :rolleyes:
 
If you have some other suggestions about "peaceful victories", it's something we could explore further.

Well FfH has a Defender leader trait that I wouldn't mind seeing. I Cre/Def leader would play like I do, focus on culture and defense until my large cities can really bring me up in having enough of a tech lead that I can go on the offensive with better units.

I just don't like to play aggressive because early in the game that means building mostly combat units. If I wanted to do that, I'd play Command and Conqueror and not Civ. So I think having city growth limited early on shifts focus more on needing refugees to boast up your cities. This fits in with the reality of a post-apocalyptic world as there are lots of survivors (4.5 billion people are hard to kill) but they are spread out and trying to find a place to call home. If given a choice (which slavery Civs/Warlord Civs won't) the refugees would like a place that is safe and has something resembling what they use to have. So the Civs with a higher culture & Safety would reap this benefit which would allow them to grow their cities faster so they could build the defensive works and thus might be able to stave off the AI who is mostly just pumping out UTE's.

I mean sometimes the AI is just crazy. I was just playing a Rise of Mankind game on a randomized Real Earth Map where on AI Civ in what would be China build up an army of about 30-40 units (like 15 catapults) and march them all the way to the Middle East to attack me in Africa. Never mind I doubt in the 'real world' anyone would allow this many troops through their territory, especially since the Civ who did was the 2nd most powerful Civ! So sometimes I think more peaceful Civs are at a disadvantage with the Civ IV AI.
 
If you have some other suggestions about "peaceful victories", it's something we could explore further.

Well FfH has a Defender leader trait that I wouldn't mind seeing. I Cre/Def leader would play like I do, focus on culture and defense until my large cities can really bring me up in having enough of a tech lead that I can go on the offensive with better units.

I just don't like to play aggressive because early in the game that means building mostly combat units. If I wanted to do that, I'd play Command and Conqueror and not Civ. So I think having city growth limited early on shifts focus more on needing refugees to boast up your cities. This fits in with the reality of a post-apocalyptic world as there are lots of survivors (4.5 billion people are hard to kill) but they are spread out and trying to find a place to call home. If given a choice (which slavery Civs/Warlord Civs won't) the refugees would like a place that is safe and has something resembling what they use to have. So the Civs with a higher culture & Safety would reap this benefit which would allow them to grow their cities faster so they could build the defensive works and thus might be able to stave off the AI who is mostly just pumping out UTE's.

I mean sometimes the AI is just crazy. I was just playing a Rise of Mankind game on a randomized Real Earth Map where on AI Civ in what would be China build up an army of about 30-40 units (like 15 catapults) and march them all the way to the Middle East to attack me in Africa. Never mind I doubt in the 'real world' anyone would allow this many troops through their territory, especially since the Civ who did was the 2nd most powerful Civ! So sometimes I think more peaceful Civs are at a disadvantage with the Civ IV AI. That and I'd like to see the logistics of THAT. Sometimes I think that the game needs a tweak that will allow small level of units through their territory under an open agreement, but won't let large units to transit through to attack another Civ unless that Civ itself is also at war. I mean do you really think US citizens would be okay if Canadian troops where traveling through to attack Mexico and had to forage on the way? :p
 
I noticed that there are different Utes in the civlopedia and in game, I guess depending on the civ? Or maybe on the promotion (like weapons mount)?

I would change some of them to "Technical" and make them buildable. Give them strength 12 instead of 8 and really differentiate them. Make Utes upgradeable to Technicals instead of having a weapons mount promotion. Then Heavy Technicals with armor instead of armor mount.

I would require buildings to build them like a Garage and Ammo Factory for Technicals, and also a Repair Yard (needs to be added) for Heavy Technicals.

Ute (8 Str) -> Technical (12 Str +50% vs Melee/Crossbow, + 25% vs Utes/Choppers/Cavalry, 1 1st Strike -> Heavy Technical (instead of armor) (16 Str +100% vs Melee/Crossbow +50% vs Utes/Choppers/Cavalry 1 1st Strike)

Also, I would add a cavalry unit with guns after the Ammo Factory is built.
 
I tried a "capitol sprint" victory using Children of the Fire, 5 players, noble difficulty. This was definitely too easy. I researched administration, agriculture, diplomacy, construction, combustion and then some other stuff which ultimately didn't matter. As soon as I got diplomacy I built the capitol at home, then put both cities to cranking out pairs of utes and advocates. I won on turn 117. I did check the capitol screen after I built the capitol, and my capitol showed up correctly. Apart from animals and barbs, I never fired a shot.

Looks like for version 10, I will stretch out the tech tree and maybe require a second, larger tech to actually get the win. During that time, presumably the other players will build capitols so keeping the capitol percentage high will be harder.
 
I noticed that there are different Utes in the civlopedia and in game, I guess depending on the civ? Or maybe on the promotion (like weapons mount)?

This is nowhere explained in the game, which is a problem. To answer your question, the different utes are only different artwork based on promotions. If you have "heavy armor" promotion (which requires the Armor tech) then you get a variant art with armor. If you have the "weapon mount" promotion (which requires the Small Arms tech) you get a variant art with mounted machine guns. If you have the "antitank" promotion (which requires Heavy Weapons tech) you get a variant art with a TOW (bazooka like thingie).

The reason for putting such large improvements as promotions is to give the feeling of an elite unit which has been through a lot and can now take on anything.

Also, I would add a cavalry unit with guns after the Ammo Factory is built.

Good idea.
 
If you want to keep the promotions and Utes they way they are, then I would add or change buildings to grant the promos automatically...because they are really upgrades with equipment not promotions.
 
Why can't be a promotion be a equipment upgrade ?

I think the notion is, htat these Technical units are kind of scavengers - when they move along defeating enemies they scavenge what they need to improve the truck. This translates in promotions with new equipment.
 
Good point

But, they could also be purpose built that way. Perhaps there is a way to do both? You could have another or multiple buildings that grant either the promos or XP to vehicles?

Scrap Yard +5 Hammers, Free Armor promo for Utes
Repair Yard +25% healing (repair) for vehicles, +25% Vehicle Construction, requires Garage and Scrap Yard, Free Weapon Mount promo for Utes
Mechanic (early game) +10% Vehicle Repair, +3 Hammers, leads to Garage
Auto Factory +100% Production of Utes - Found like Depots, etc.

I know you didn't want to add alot more buildings, but I think you should. Stretching out the tech tree would allow that. Probably another thread should be started for that...
 
Another thought, what about rewards from searching ruins? In addition to survivors in "bunkers", some ruins could contain supplies or weapons. It would need another graphic. Plus, you could use the cargo truck graphic and they have to take it to a town to use it.

Examples would be:

"You find guns and ammo in the ruins" = Free Guardian Unit

"You find food and medicine" = +1 Population and +1 Health

"You find science books" = +250 beakers

"You find an old truck in the ruins" = Free Ute

"You scavenge parts and building supplies" = +100 Hammers
 
The mod looks great - very different feel from the original game.

However the victory types spoil the fun a bit... I played two games lost both to Vision around turn 200~250 :cry:
 
It is true that new players may not realize about the capitol (was "vision") victory. There are popups which come at 25% and 50% to warn you about this, and there is information available about the victory in the civilopedia. However, it seems like it is not enough information.

How can the game give you more, relevant information about the victory so that you do not lose by surprise?
 
Maybe what is really needed is info/tips on how to fight the Vision victory (loss) ?

I myself for example barely build missionaries in my unmodded games - i just let a AI do the work converting me... So while it might seem obvious, that spreading your own vision would help, it might be something some players are unused to do.

Also a pointer about not putting off the Diplomacy tech / capitol for too long might be in order - the way the tech tree is set up now, bypassing Diplomacy might seem the right thing to do with some strategies.

Perhaps including a few of these in the tips that show up while the game is loading, would help ? (It might be just me, but i actually do read these, while waiting for a game to start / savegame to load)
 
I agree the hints are a key place to get information. The only hint in the game about this so far is:

Beware of enemy advocates converting your cities to support their capitol. Send your own advocates afterwards, to remove their influence.

The key place I want the player to look for information about this is in the civilopedia, Fury Road Concepts tab, item "2. Capitols".

So first question, does that section explain enough? Or is it too long/irrelevant?

Second question, how can I make sure new players read that? Maybe I could change the text in the "25% capitol victory popup", so it specifically points to this section of the civilopedia. Is there a way to put a button into a popup, which specifically brings up that civilopedia entry?
 
Also, I would add a cavalry unit with guns after the Ammo Factory is built.

I would think that using some basic form of the base Civ IV "Cavalry" unit would work here since they are guys on horses with guns. I would think all that would be needed is to just change the uniform a bit.
 
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