version 9 playtest feedback

[arkham4269]

Why can't be a promotion be a equipment upgrade ?

I think the notion is, htat these Technical units are kind of scavengers - when they move along defeating enemies they scavenge what they need to improve the truck. This translates in promotions with new equipment.

I totally agree. In regular Civ, you have the full power of a Civ backing up and providing for your army so looting the bodies isn't worth it. In Fury Road, every enemy you kill means more goodies for you. I mean unless you catastrophically destroy an UTE, it's still a gold mine of parts.

In fact, I would think that the mod should be tweaked so units get promotions faster to reflect this or, if it's possible to do it, have certain promotions allowed depending on the unit you killed.

 

[Refar]

I was thinking about increasing the promotion rate a bit as well. Should be fun, but might need more promotions first.

 

[Refar]

Second question, how can I make sure new players read that?

Well... getting people to actually read the documentation you provide is one of the most difficult tasks...

Maybe I could change the text in the "25% capitol victory popup", so it specifically points to this section of the civilopedia. Is there a way to put a button into a popup, which specifically brings up that civilopedia entry?

I dont know how to add a button, but perhaps just a hint to look in the pedia would be enought ?

 

[arkham4269]

I was thinking about increasing the promotion rate a bit as well. Should be fun, but might need more promotions first.

Another idea is that in some variants of Civ IV, I've seen that when you've taken a Barbarian city you get a message, "You do not find any technology of interest" that implies that early enough in the game, these barbarians might have a tech that you don't and you'd might steal it. So somewhere there is some game code that allows for gaining technology from taking cities.

While I have said before I don't believe that any event should just give you a technology, perhaps if you take a enemy city and they have a tech you don't, you have a good chance of getting a % scientific boast toward that tech.

Of course that is one function of the game "Europa Universalis" that I wish Civ IV had: if you shared a border with another civilization and they had a tech (say writing) that you didn't have, you'd get a bonus toward developing that tech since people using it are right next door and your traders would be picking up tips in the process. Obviously in Civ IV terms I'm sure you'd need an open border agreement for this to work.

 

[davidlallen]

I would think that using some basic form of the base Civ IV "Cavalry" unit would work here since they are guys on horses with guns. I would think all that would be needed is to just change the uniform a bit.

From the art standpoint, I agree. But from the unit role standpoint, I am not sure. A cavalry unit would require small arms, have movement 2, and some strength greater than 12. That exactly describes the jeep, except the jeep also requires gasoline. So we need some way to differentiate the jeep from the cavalry. Any suggestions?

 

[davidlallen]

In Fury Road, every enemy you kill means more goodies for you. I mean unless you catastrophically destroy an UTE, it's still a gold mine of parts.

In fact, I would think that the mod should be tweaked so units get promotions faster to reflect this or, if it's possible to do it, have certain promotions allowed depending on the unit you killed.

Regarding the "gold mine", I had an idea a while back about "wrecks". You can see the details at this link.

Regarding promotion speed, I have actually made the promotions slightly bigger. For example, Combat I is +15% vs +10%. So after a few promotions, the unit is more powerful. I'd want to undo that, if we lowered the XP required for each level.

There is also a related question which has been debated, about whether to raise or lower the "barb XP cap". There are some votes on either side. In vanilla, and in Fury Road today, if a unit has 10 XP it gets no additional XP from killing barbs or animals.

 

[Refar]

Making promotions have a little less impact, but have more increments and lower XP cost per promotion might be worth a try.

Overall in Fury Road we have less units than in a normal game, so it would be nice having those somewhat "personalized" - developing a unit via a interesting promotion tree could give a - liiitle bit - rpg level up feeling.

On the XP cap from barbs i somehow have mixed feelings...

I had lucky Survivor killing his 3-rd deathclaw while already at 10XP... On such a unit i wish the cap wouldn't exist - after all killing a deathklaw is by no means easy for a survivor unit, at it should make him cooler.

Then again there are "military" line of units... for those most barbs are a easy pushover... so i wouldnt want them to milk barbs for XP...

Unless we can have different XP caps for different units (AFAIK we can not) i am in favor of keeping the XP cap.

 

[arkham4269]

From the art standpoint, I agree. But from the unit role standpoint, I am not sure. A cavalry unit would require small arms, have movement 2, and some strength greater than 12. That exactly describes the jeep, except the jeep also requires gasoline. So we need some way to differentiate the jeep from the cavalry. Any suggestions?

Well I just did too big posts on road and railroads and in it I point out that today's science shows that after a post-Apocalyptic event, most roads are unusable in 20 years (i.e. at the beginning of the game) and even major highways are gone by 50 (turn 120).

So I think that, as discussed previously, cavalry is pretty easy to create since horses occur 'naturally' and since after the Apocalypse, a lot of the areas that are still habitable will be rural areas where you'd have a lot of horses available. Plus, since the game is 20 years after the fact, you'd have more interest in acquiring/breeding them.

Personally, I don't think that horses should be a resource in that unless you have a horse resource you can't build them. This isn't 4000 BC: you find horses all over these days. Instead I think these tweaks should be needed instead.
* Stable: Needed to represent all the cost associated with caring, housing and training of horses for combat. Farm horses do instantly become war horses without training.
* Pasture: While I don't believe you have to have horses as a resource, I think that since horses eat every day, that there should be a limit on how many you can have. Say perhaps for every pasture you build, you can have 2-3 Cavalry units. Then the pasture represents just that, land that exists only to feed horses. So cities in food poor areas might not be able to afford the loss of food and thus couldn't create Cav units.

The flip side of this would have to be another issue that has been bandied about and that is since roads suck and running around off-road really is hard on vehicles, that UTE's and Jeeps and the like should either take a modicum of 'damage' for traveling off road or they should have a chance to break down and would require a mechanic unit to fix them before they could move again. (This gives another reason for railroads: quickly move your mech units to the battle zone and they'll be 'fresher' than those that had to travel there under their own power). So while Jeeps are superior in combat power to Cavalry, one might want more Cav units if you want to build units that can travel through bad terrain without danger of breaking down or needing oil, not to mention being able to build them very early on.

 

[jefmart1]

From the art standpoint, I agree. But from the unit role standpoint, I am not sure. A cavalry unit would require small arms, have movement 2, and some strength greater than 12. That exactly describes the jeep, except the jeep also requires gasoline. So we need some way to differentiate the jeep from the cavalry. Any suggestions?

I think you need more rock paper scissors type bonuses, as well as perhaps lowering "melee" cavalry to 9 or 10 and then making "gun" cavalry 12-13.

But I was thinking, that gun units should have free 1st strikes, and that Vehicles should have bonuses against foot and horse units. That would be due to the protection offered by the vehicle, plus they can run over them.

From a unit standpoint, it would be silly not to have "gun" cavalry since that means guys on horses for some reason eschew the use of guns. Thats not just stupid its suicidal. From a game perspective and real life perspective, horses offer advantages over vehicles. 1) They don't require fuel 2) As mentioned by Arkham in relation to roads they can go places vehicles can't.

Perhaps Utes and Jeeps are penalized off road unless they have off road promotion (or 4 Wheel Drive) thus making "gun" cavalry useful. Or especially usefull to civs with no oil...

Honestly, I would get rid of the Jeep and have an upgunned Ute or SUV instead. I'm not sure where the Jeeps would come from in the real world, so it always seemed a little off to me. I would also up their strength to 16.

 

[arkham4269]

I think you need more rock paper scissors type bonuses, as well as perhaps lowering "melee" cavalry to 9 or 10 and then making "gun" cavalry 12-13.

But I was thinking, that gun units should have free 1st strikes, and that Vehicles should have bonuses against foot and horse units. That would be due to the protection offered by the vehicle, plus they can run over them.

Another thing to think of is that in the American Civil War, Cavalry was used mostly as recon and destroying stuff behind enemy lines. When they went into serious combat, they dismounted and fought like traditional infantry. So really Cavalry is just the first 'mech infantry' so yes I agree the idea of guys running around on horses with sabers or lances when the infantry they're attacking having shotguns and the like is silly. The horses are transports; Cavalry are not Knights.

I mean the reason you'd have Cavalry is that while they're more expensive that infantry (horses eat too) they have the speed advantage over 'straight leg' infantry. Once a Civ gets enough infrastructure to crank out reliable vehicles (gas/oil/steam - it doesn't matter) then the only reason you'd need Cavalry for is to get through certain terrain.

I mean after 20-40 years, trying to drive a vehicle through a forest should be impossible without roads.

 

[davidlallen]

Several people have commented that the jeep, being open, should have lower strength than the ute. I think the humvee unit works well for the "top of the food chain" in buildable vehicles. I guess I need to rethink the jeep, ute, and rifle cavalry "mid range" of the vehicle chain.

 

[arkham4269]

Several people have commented that the jeep, being open, should have lower strength than the UTE. I think the humvee unit works well for the "top of the food chain" in buildable vehicles. I guess I need to rethink the jeep, ute, and rifle cavalry "mid range" of the vehicle chain.

Yeah, but what is a Jeep these days. I've commented before, the Jeep shown in the graphic is from WW II and there just aren't that many around. I mean they're older than VW bugs! For the most part I see them representing SUV's while the UTE's represent trucks. While trucks can have enclosures as well, SUV's are generally built that way from scratch and thus tougher.

As for Humvee's, while they are FANTASTIC as an off-road vehicle, their gas consumption makes them a marginal unit at best. You'd be better off finding a 5-ton or even better the older 2.5 ton truck still found in Guard Armories since while bigger vehicles, they actually get better gas mileage, haul more and after 9-11 are getting retrofitted with armor.

 

[jefmart1]

What about armored buses and large vehicles like dump trucks and tractor trailers? Unusual but they probably would exist (there was one in the Road Warrior). Maybe as National Units? It might require higher end tech to produce one.

You could modify they like Utes, but have multiple weapon mounts and even transport Infantry

Which leads to another thought: Couldn't Utes, SUVs (Jeeps), etc transport one foot infantry?

In the Toyota War (Chad vs Libya) troops piled into toyota pickups and rolled out to war. In Somalia the technicals (military name for Utes) frequently have a squad of infantry riding on them...

 

[arkham4269]

What about armored buses and large vehicles like dump trucks and tractor trailers? Unusual but they probably would exist (there was one in the Road Warrior). Maybe as National Units? It might require higher end tech to produce one.

You could modify they like Utes, but have multiple weapon mounts and even transport Infantry

Which leads to another thought: Couldn't Utes, SUVs (Jeeps), etc transport one foot infantry?

In the Toyota War (Chad vs Libya) troops piled into toyota pickups and rolled out to war. In Somalia the technicals (military name for Utes) frequently have a squad of infantry riding on them...

Well I've posted pictures on this thread of my time in Afghanistan where the main vehicle of the army is an LTV which is basically a technical.

As this mods resident steampunk pest, I've pointed out that steam engines are easy to make and when easy to use if the fuel is propane. Even if it is an older engine using something like wood or coal, using a big vehicle like a tractor or dump truck becomes viable.

As for transport, from what the mod creator says, while land transport is an option in Civ IV, most modders don't use it because the AI isn't smart enough to use it and it gives the human player too much power. After running in with 4-5 BTR's with 2 infantry in them apiece that can attack on the turn after they dismount just demolish the AI, I understand that reasoning.

 

[davidlallen]

This is playtest feedback, sort of, but it's about Fall From Heaven. If you read all my posts, you know I had been avoiding playing FFH because I was afraid it would be a big time sink. Well, in the US this is a three day weekend and I decided to download it and start playing.

Boy, it will be a huge time sink. I love how each civ will give a completely different play experience. So far I've tried Grigori (thanks for the recommendation, jabie!) and Sheaim.

As Sheaim, I crushed one neighbor but the rest of the map was blocked by Clan of Embers, so I kept Open Borders with him in order to reach the remaining player, Malakim. I was busy working away on him when I suddenly lost! It seems that CoE had been sending a bunch of missionaries and all my cities had converted to Fellowship of Leaves. Since between me and CoE we had more than 80% of the population, he won a religious victory.

I found it amusing that as a new player of FFH, I had an unexpected religious loss. So it's not "just" Rury Road that has this problem. I have done a few things to make fighting back possible in Fury Road because I have gotten a few complaints, but FFH can do the same thing.

I will just go back like 100 turns in my save games, found my own religion, and make sure to convert all my cities. I can't stop his missionaries because I need the open borders to reach the other player; but at least he won't get above 80% this way.

I have put warning popups into Fury Road, but I could have used them in FFH as well.

 

[arkham4269]

This is playtest feedback, sort of, but it's about Fall From Heaven. If you read all my posts, you know I had been avoiding playing FFH because I was afraid it would be a big time sink. Well, in the US this is a three day weekend and I decided to download it and start playing.

Boy, it will be a huge time sink.

Welcome to my world. I would be interested to know how you feel, after playing FfH a bit more about my idea of switching the Armageddon Counter (AC) to something like a Cultural Counter (CC or what ever it would be called) to represent the 'light of civilization' coming back on. So when Civ's do 'bad' things (raze cities, enact slavery, perhaps start using blood/death sports as entertainment) the counter would go down and perhaps this would provide certain advantages to certain Visions and give disadvantages to others. I mean it's okay if Hopeville is pushing for A Better Tomorrow(tm) and the Gaians...uhm, I mean Aquarians are pushing to rebuild Earth. However, it would be harder to convince people of the possibility of this Vision coming to pass when the bulk of the other Civ's are burning, looting, taking slaves, and feeding people to the lions for fun and entertainment.

On the other hand, if the CC is high, it would work the other way around. As cultural levels go up and people feel like the Period of Darkness is ending, Civs who do 'bad' things would be looked down upon as only barely a step up from the roving barbarians.

Plus as I've said, perhaps certain buildings could only be build if the CC was at a certain level to show that until that point, it wasn't safe enough to enact them. Of course, it might be that the CC would apply only to your civilization. Thus what ever course you take, up or down the CC ladder, would open or close certain doors.

Plus, taking the time to build cultural things to raise the CC might be another way players who want to go the less martial route might use to help hinder the aggressive Civs. Of course the danger in that is if that aggressive Civ comes in and burns down a lot of your stuff, the CC would take an enormous hit and then you'd be the one in trouble!

Oh, in deference to Refar, I'm not saying that this would turn Fury Road into a good versus evil battle. I'm just stating that this counter would represent that actions most civilized nations would consider 'bad' would lower the counter and those that would be considered 'good' would raise the counter. However, these are hard times that require hard choices. Can your civilization survive if you cling to the morals and laws of a modern world?

 

[arkham4269]

On the other hand, if the CC is high, it would work the other way around. As cultural levels go up and people feel like the Period of Darkness is ending, Civs who do 'bad' things would be looked down upon as only barely a step up from the roving barbarians.

Another use for this CC might be the idea of eras. As has been posted before, unlike eras based on Ancient, Classical, Medieval and the like, you would have Era of Survival, Era of Restoration, Era of Rebirth or something like that. I would think that these era's could be trigger once the CC goes past a certain point for a certain amount of turns. So say the CC goes past 50 and stays there for a year, this would then trigger the new era. However, you could also have a 'special' era screen showing "Dark Age" or something to show that if the CC suddenly goes down past that era's threshold for maybe 2 years, then you revert back to the previous era.

So maybe you'd have.
Age of Tyrants - Did I mention that I'm anointed by God and not fully mortal?
Age of Despots - I love it when they say, "We who are about to die salute you!"
Age of Warlords - Hmm, laws are for sissies
Age of Survival - Basic start of the game with CC at 0
Age of Rebirth - Things getting better
Age of Restoration - Things getting a lot better
Age of Civilization - Good times are here to stay

To bad that there isn't the old Civ III graphics that had your leader's outfit change with the era's. It would be fun designing Fury Road versions of outfits for these eras.

 

[Randomness]

I mean the reason you'd have Cavalry is that while they're more expensive that infantry (horses eat too) they have the speed advantage over 'straight leg' infantry. Once a Civ gets enough infrastructure to crank out reliable vehicles (gas/oil/steam - it doesn't matter) then the only reason you'd need Cavalry for is to get through certain terrain.QUOTE]

You could show this by giving Calvary low attack (say 7-9) and give them the off-road promotion (which is already in the game) at the start. This would show the fact that they have the advantage on rough turain.

 

[davidlallen]

Another use for this CC might be the idea of eras. As has been posted before, unlike eras based on Ancient, Classical, Medieval and the like, you would have Era of Survival, Era of Restoration, Era of Rebirth or something like that. I would think that these era's could be trigger once the CC goes past a certain point for a certain amount of turns. So say the CC goes past 50 and stays there for a year, this would then trigger the new era. However, you could also have a 'special' era screen showing "Dark Age" or something to show that if the CC suddenly goes down past that era's threshold for maybe 2 years, then you revert back to the previous era.

The "positive" side of the Culture, or maybe "Safety" counter, is the effect that eras have in vanilla. I haven't spent much time yet investigating the three new tech trees that have been submitted for Fury Road (sorry guys!) but when I revamp it, I will definitely include eras. We have the technology to mix non-ruined buildings into the city and village graphics, so switching eras would show graphically how much progress you are making in rebuilding.

The "negative" side is an interesting idea which I have not seen done before. Basically, if you try, you can push civilization "further down" by introducing slavery, torture, etc. Some AI LH could try to do this by default.

I guess there is no reason we can't use the idea of eras for that also; it would be a weirdly shaped tech tree, but it may be possible. In vanilla, we can put the eras in an obvious order: ancient classical medieval renaissance modern future. You start at ancient, and then the game keeps track of moving you "up" in eras. If you started at medieval, say, it should be possible with python to push you "down" into classical.

Combine this with enough variety in the city building nifs, and you could get a cool graphical "look". I'll try out switching eras along with reviewing the tech trees.

 

[arkham4269]

I guess there is no reason we can't use the idea of eras for that also; it would be a weirdly shaped tech tree, but it may be possible. In vanilla, we can put the eras in an obvious order: ancient classical medieval renaissance modern future. You start at ancient, and then the game keeps track of moving you "up" in eras. If you started at medieval, say, it should be possible with python to push you "down" into classical.

I'd be the first to admit I don't know how going to a different era affects the game other than a change in graphics of certain units. However, that being said, since the scale of time of Fury Road is only 100 years, I would think that the Eras shouldn't be based on technology since it's how you use it is going to affect the overall safety level of the game. I mean does it really matter (except in severity) if you are pillaging and plundering using cavalry or the "latest" in bio-diesel Humvees with armor? The net result is destruction.

I'm still thinking that certain eras might cause advantages or disadvantages for certain Visions as well as maybe giving bonuses for certain types of buildings. I mean if the CC is high, your bloodsport arenas will still give happiness in your cities, but might increase the negative feeling other more 'civilized' Civ's have toward you. Plus I would think as the CC went up, your citizens would demand more stuff. In Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, the Civ Morgan Industries had a big bonus in production but the flip side was that their people wanted lots of creature comforts. While that was shown more with the civics, it might be added tweaked here.

Plus, I don't know, maybe depending on which civic you switching to may affect your anarchy time depending on the CC. If the CC is high and you're switching to a "lower" civic, your people probably wouldn't like it.