[NFP] Vietnam Discussion Thread

better than going for one leader that everyone knows Ho Chi Mihn. No offense to him but he is just linked to the communist state of Vietnam too much. Vietnam is more than communist nation.
That girl is a born communist freedom fighter, though. :goodjob:
The one issue I have with the choice is that it avoids all of Vietnamese imperial history. Her shtick might as well be communism since she tells you nothing about what life in Vietnam was like, how its government functioned, who actually lead it.
So all the heavy-lifting will have to be done by the text in Civilopedia and banner at the start. As it stands, if I told a random person on here that Vietnamese had rajas, worshipped Vishnu and what-not, they wouldn't be able to tell I was making stuff up unless they explicitly looked up Vietnam beforehand. Everyone knows that Europe had kingdoms with kings and aristocracy, that muslim world had harems and viziers and so on but Vietnamese history is a blank slate for most casual observers.
So you have the civilisation's bonus focused on the Mekong river delta (an area that was conquered by Vietnam in 19th century), freedom fighter bonus for the leader that would be the same as on Ho Chi Minh, the leader herself wearing a modern Vietnamese dress in its 20th century form instead of a maybe more fitting armor set. You then have a guerrilla elephant unit, whose soldiers also don't seem to be going for any visually striking characteristics of Vietnamese arms and armor aside from showing that Vietnam used elephants in battle. And finally you have the fortress which is for now mostly a fairly neutral fortification acting as it would anywhere else in the world, first for defense and later for tourism.

As it stands, I'd be more inclined to say the civ's design says: "You know the communist Vietnam, right? Well it didn't sprung into existence during the Cold War, it was there before, used elephants and if you want to know any more then you'll just have to suck it up and learn Vietnamese. :cry:" but at its core it's still just Auntie Trieu's ranged guerrilla troops battling anonymous foreign aggressors in the humid jungles of South Vietnam while the opponent needs to get rid of all the forest cover. Instead of Uncle Ho's ranged guerrilla troops battling US aggressors in the humid jungles of South Vietnam while the opponent needs to get rid of all the forest cover.
I think there's still a fairly big room for improvement yet if Vietnam makes it into a later Civ game (and it would be a shame if they did not) and the explicit mission is to create a different and more pre-colonial image of the country rather than that of Viet Cong's guerrilla struggles. But critique is easy and designing an alternative that fulfills this goal without removing the fairly engaging wood elf gameplay is genuinely hard. So yeah, I do look forward to any change in perception of Vietnamese history among the Civ community, although the sceptic in me says it will be more of the same but with elephants hidden in those trees that speak Vietnamese. :mischief:
 
That girl is a born communist freedom fighter, though. :goodjob:
The one issue I have with the choice is that it avoids all of Vietnamese imperial history. Her shtick might as well be communism since she tells you nothing about what life in Vietnam was like, how its government functioned, who actually lead it.
So all the heavy-lifting will have to be done by the text in Civilopedia and banner at the start. As it stands, if I told a random person on here that Vietnamese had rajas, worshipped Vishnu and what-not, they wouldn't be able to tell I was making stuff up unless they explicitly looked up Vietnam beforehand. Everyone knows that Europe had kingdoms with kings and aristocracy, that muslim world had harems and viziers and so on but Vietnamese history is a blank slate for most casual observers.
So you have the civilisation's bonus focused on the Mekong river delta (an area that was conquered by Vietnam in 19th century), freedom fighter bonus for the leader that would be the same as on Ho Chi Minh, the leader herself wearing a modern Vietnamese dress in its 20th century form instead of a maybe more fitting armor set. You then have a guerrilla elephant unit, whose soldiers also don't seem to be going for any visually striking characteristics of Vietnamese arms and armor aside from showing that Vietnam used elephants in battle. And finally you have the fortress which is for now mostly a fairly neutral fortification acting as it would anywhere else in the world, first for defense and later for tourism.

As it stands, I'd be more inclined to say the civ's design says: "You know the communist Vietnam, right? Well it didn't sprung into existence during the Cold War, it was there before, used elephants and if you want to know any more then you'll just have to suck it up and learn Vietnamese. :cry:" but at its core it's still just Auntie Trieu's ranged guerrilla troops battling anonymous foreign aggressors in the humid jungles of South Vietnam while the opponent needs to get rid of all the forest cover. Instead of Uncle Ho's ranged guerrilla troops battling US aggressors in the humid jungles of South Vietnam while the opponent needs to get rid of all the forest cover.
I think there's still a fairly big room for improvement yet if Vietnam makes it into a later Civ game (and it would be a shame if they did not) and the explicit mission is to create a different and more pre-colonial image of the country rather than that of Viet Cong's guerrilla struggles. But critique is easy and designing an alternative that fulfills this goal without removing the fairly engaging wood elf gameplay is genuinely hard. So yeah, I do look forward to any change in perception of Vietnamese history among the Civ community, although the sceptic in me says it will be more of the same but with elephants hidden in those trees that speak Vietnamese. :mischief:
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That was load of nonsense... how is it any different from the way they did China, Korea and Japan? For China they added Great wall, an ablility to have increased eruaka and inspiration and ablility to construct wonders faster, Korea is a weird hybrid of Silla and Chosen, Japan has increased ability to gain agency bonuses and construct districts faster.

Heck you could make a similar argument for all the civs. What can you tell from Brazil from its UA, UU, LA, UD? What can you tell America? what about France?
 
I don’t think so. I ask because it is very similar to some types of Russian kokoshnik
It's just hard to tell, but the Russian kokoshnik is a headdress while the Vietnamese one (left postcard) is a long strip of fabric wrapped into a circle and around itself, which is not exactly easy to sell on a 3D model, but IRL is nothing like the headdresses in Europe.
hoang-hau-nam-phuong-khan-dong-khan-van-0149.jpg
 
it really is a shame that Thành looks too generic... especially compared to another Encampment UD- Ikanda ) it looks way more unique.

Yeah the Ikanda looks really nice when fully upgraded with the generic buildings given a recolour and a few Zulu details to make it fit into the district a bit more. Mali's unique district had it too so it was a little dissapointing that all the UD in the NFP have just had the basic looking buildings.
 
The one issue I have with the choice is that it avoids all of Vietnamese imperial history. Her shtick might as well be communism since she tells you nothing about what life in Vietnam was like, how its government functioned, who actually lead it.
Also vietnam civ highlights its position as "graveyard of the empire" As well as having a rich culture. You know how all the famous "empires" picked a fight and NONE of them came out the same. sure like Ming Dynasty and Imperial France they might have captured Vietnam for a time BUT Vietnam managed to fight itself off.

UD in the NFP have just had the basic looking buildings.
I disagree with all of the UD before Thành. Oberverity, Hippodrome, Oppodium all had unique looks... it is just Thành that is the weak link.
 
Also vietnam civ highlights its position as "graveyard of the empire" As well as having a rich culture. You know how all the famous "empires" picked a fight and NONE of them came out the same. sure like Ming Dynasty and Imperial France they might have captured Vietnam for a time BUT Vietnam managed to fight itself off.
Vietnam isn't Afghanistan, nor a graveyard of empires. None of the enemies barring the US had any large impact caused by the failure in Vietnam. Yuan didn't, Ming didn't, Qing didn't, Siam didn't, Japan didn't, French didn't.
That's my main issue with the design. You already know what US is like, what France is like, what China is like. Vietnam is, however, an open slate for most people and while the game tries to steer away from the Vietnam War tropes, you're kinda showing off that it could do more. At the same time I'm aware that if you put history before gameplay you'd just end up with a mess. Elephant units alone don't make for exciting design so making them guerrillas, while comical and drawing on stereotypes, ties them better with the rest of the civ's roster.
 
I disagree with all of the UD before Thành. Oberverity, Hippodrome, Oppodium all had unique looks... it is just Thành that is the weak link.

The difference I mean is the buildings inside the districts don't have a different 'skin'. For example the university in the observatory just looks like the normal one but the bank in suguba has extra features to make it blend in with the district more.
 
That's my main issue with the design. You already know what US is like, what France is like, what China is like. Vietnam is, however, an open slate for most people and while the game tries to steer away from the Vietnam War tropes,
Most people don't know about Korea, Maya. Cree, Ethiopia, Khmer, Indonesia, Gran Colombia, Babylon, Arabia, Gaul, Georgia ( no NOT US state), Maori ect.
You can make the same argument for these civs. Why weren't you arguing when these civs were added? What makes Vietnam so different from these civs?
 
Most people don't know about Korea, Maya. Cree, Ethiopia, Khmer, Indonesia, Gran Colombia, Babylon, Arabia, Gaul, Georgia ( no NOT US state), Maori ect.
You can make the same argument for these civs. Why weren't you arguing when these civs were added? What makes Vietnam so different from these civs?
I have complained more than once about Korea becoming a Sejong the Great civ in later Civ games, HK and so on.
I don't know everything there is about every single civilisation that has ever appeared in human history so I couldn't and wouldn't take my stance on say the Cree or Ethiopia having to be done different. But steering Vietnam away from wood elves of the oriental jungles is something that many people on here and even the people working at Firaxis have set as one of the main goals of the civ's design. That's why there have been so many discussions about local puppetry traditions, distinct religious sites, naval vessels and so on.
All I'm saying is that while the civ definitely looks fun, it could use a little more details to show more than that. The only Vietnamese thing about the elephant unit is its guerrilla ability. Someone posted a drawing of a Mughal elephant (ironically actual Afghanistan) as an IRL representation of the unit, it is that non-descript. The guys firing crossbows instead of bows, or at least having some Vietnamese looking armor, or decorations on the elephant itself would, IMO, help it a lot. Thanh has a similar problem. It's the best of the bunch but as it stands it's a little lacking in visual department and especially lacks anything representing its cultural bonus, which is something we're both in agreement on.
 
Can I say just how awesome Vietnam theme is? I can't wait for Fraxis to release full version. It is already becoming my favorite NFP theme. ( then again I am a bit of sucker for Asian music...)

it really is a shame that Thành looks too generic... especially compared to another Encampment UD- Ikanda ) it looks way more unique.
Since when is a Civ 6 Civilization theme not cool? They're all amazing, even the ones with less quality because they are that good.

We will see. Hammurabi certainly is able to skip through tech tree quite nicely - at crew in medieval, oh yeahhhh - last eureka update does feel like it was towards him unable to go further than 40+ techs as he did feel like stuck after being first for almost full game. But back to Vietnam. I believe the early forest planting is also made so that it's AI won't be complacently clueless after several turns. (I assume thanks to bias start first few cities are gonna expand as they should).
Trevor-ish, I don't mean to sound rude here, but you put my quote but said nothing about my quote. You might have accidentally forgotten to write something, which is why I'm asking you this.

Take care,
William.
 
I have complained more than once about Korea becoming a Sejong the Great civ in later Civ games, HK and so on.
I don't know everything there is about every single civilisation that has ever appeared in human history so I couldn't and wouldn't take my stance on say the Cree or Ethiopia having to be done different. But steering Vietnam away from wood elves of the oriental jungles is something that many people on here and even the people working at Firaxis have set as one of the main goals of the civ's design. That's why there have been so many discussions about local puppetry traditions, distinct religious sites, naval vessels and so on.
All I'm saying is that while the civ definitely looks fun, it could use a little more details to show more than that. The only Vietnamese thing about the elephant unit is its guerrilla ability. Someone posted a drawing of a Mughal elephant (ironically actual Afghanistan) as an IRL representation of the unit, it is that non-descript. The guys firing crossbows instead of bows, or at least having some Vietnamese looking armor, or decorations on the elephant itself would, IMO, help it a lot. Thanh has a similar problem. It's the best of the bunch but as it stands it's a little lacking in visual department and especially lacks anything representing its cultural bonus, which is something we're both in agreement on.
it is a limitation of a gaming system... something that is bit too late as it would cause overwriting a whole system. However at least they didn't go for an easy route and referenced modern communist Vietnam in the civ. They could have made Ho Chi Mihn a leader and/or have Vietcong as UU.
 
Moderator Action: Please get back on topic. This thread is not about Vietnamese history. We have a History forum for that, please use it.
 
Since when is a Civ 6 Civilization theme not cool? They're all amazing, even the ones with less quality because they are that good.


Trevor-ish, I don't mean to sound rude here, but you put my quote but said nothing about my quote. You might have accidentally forgotten to write something, which is why I'm asking you this.

Take care,
William.
Early morning error...idk how did I quote two posts like that x_X Mea Culpa
 
My opinion about Vietnam:
Leader Ability:
+1 start movement speed and +2 in own territories with features is superb, or game changer tier.
+5 strength with tiles with feature, +10 when in own territories is nice, and again, superb defense is good offense.

Civ Trait: (the most important and need some fixes)
-Districts do not remove feature ==> Nice, but there are alot of questions about those features and district bonuses when chop, regrowth features after districts are built, on districts of conquered cities, ...
-District can only be placed upon features maybe a too harsh restriction. Vietnam cant use desert and snow tiles for their district.
-District bonus +1 prod, or 1 science, or 1 culture depend on feature (marsh, forest, rain forest) for each buildings. The bonus first look is nice, but overall, it required a ton of production investment to have somehow little in return, and need a long term to get benefit from, compare with instant and constant bonuses from remove marsh (1 pop right away), forest (buildings or wonders right away with some chop), ...

==> The Civ Unique is really interesting, but i think they should be better if be fixed a bit:
-Remove districts built on feature restrictions, Vietnam still can build districts every where like other civs, on "waste land" like snow or desert.
-District placement does not remove features.
-District's Buildings only get bonus from features when the features are exist, and bonuses are lost when features are removed.
-Builder can plant woods on district's tiles, if possible, they can plant woods over snow or desert tiles with districts are already built.
-Optional: Can place Water District (Harbor, Water Park) on Reefs tiles, and buildings get bonus Gold.
-Optional: Vietnam can get 25% of food/productions bonus when place district on the features, Magnus can still +50% bonus to them (to 37%).

Unique District: Thanh
-Free to build, half cost.
+2 Culture for each adjacent district.
==> OP UD i think, free Encampment every where is insane for warfare, and with culture bonus Vietnam will have bigger border, bigger threat, then every neighbors will have hard times to deal with them if they play aggressive.
But there is an important tradition of Vietnamese, it is "farmer at peace, militia at war", so they are master of mobilization and farming from ancient times. Its better, and more unique, if we can change their unique district like this:
-Free to build, half cost.
+3 pop slots.
-Pops work in this district produce 4 Food, 1 Culture (instead of 2 Gold, 1 Production). In total, this District can have max 6 Pop and produce 24 Food and 6 Culture.
+2 Tourism for each adjacent district.
Optional: +1 Amenity with each military Buildings (max 3).

Unique Unit
-I dont know why, but a Ranged Unit with high strength, high speed, can move after attacking, does not fear cavalry, is it possible?
 
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