[NFP] Vietnam Discussion Thread

[AntSou]

Playing Vietnam one early thing I noticed is how comfortable I felt about moving my early units to explore, not just the scout. The warrior and slingers have no trouble getting back to the capital quickly through the forests if they're needed.

Edit: Just make sure you don't end the turn outside forests/rainforests/marshes, or the following turn the unit will be back at 2 movement (the movement bonus only applies if they start the turn on those tiles, similar to the chariot)

 

[Kupe Navigator]

which map is best for Vietnam?

 

[8housesofelixir]

which map is best for Vietnam?

Every map type with "Rainfall" set to the "Wet".

 

[Dotsworthy]

So Vietnam is pretty cool, although I imagine prone to some slow starts as getting a suitable agency early is tough. Rushing my pantheon to get sacred path was my main goal, and I also decided to plump for hermetic order. I don't normally go for it, but since it was buffed and because it has to appear on a plain tile with no features, I guessed I might get lucky with so many rainforests and woods around.

Having a cheap encampment that can be popped down at any time is also a bit of a game changer. Once the walls are up and the thanh is built, you can stave off early wars with ease. Add to that the combat bonus and I made mincemeat of Mansa Musas pitiful attempt to rush my capital.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I found the freedom in the early game as VN not as limiting as we thought. They have tier 1 starting bias for features, tier 1! I've rolled a couple of times to find a good start with luxes and resources, but have never had problems with starts that don't have features.

 

[BD123]

I just saw there's no achievement specific for Vietnam (or Kublai) besides winning any standard game.. like there isn't a Ba Trieu variant of "As Gaul, defeat a tank with your UU" or "As Babylon, unlock a tech two eras ahead." Not really a problem but kind of disappointing, I liked those kind of civilization specific achievements since it was like a little side goal you could do in-game that usually emphasized the civ's playstyle

Other than that, it's been fun playing Ba Trieu. The first roll I had I was on coast and a nearby desert so needless to say second roll was needed lol

 

[fy00sh]

I just saw there's no achievement specific for Vietnam (or Kublai) besides winning any standard game.. like there isn't a Ba Trieu variant of "As Gaul, defeat a tank with your UU" or "As Babylon, unlock a tech two eras ahead." Not really a problem but kind of disappointing, I liked those kind of civilization specific achievements since it was like a little side goal you could do in-game that usually emphasized the civ's playstyle

I was really sad when I found that out, got myself hyped up over what the achievement might be only to find... nothing. Pretty sure there wasnt one for ethiopia either, but i might be wrong abt that. Maybe theyll add them later? prolly just wishful thinking tho

 

[Kimiimaro]

Pretty sure there wasnt one for ethiopia either, but i might be wrong abt that.

Ethiopia has this.

 

[Finvola]

I'm currently playing a game with them on Immortal. In hindsight I should have picked wet but it's ok as I'm just trying them out. I'll remember next time. The map isn't too bad, nice growth and production but it's patches of rainforest and marsh and I wish I had more suitable terrain. I jotted down notes of what gives +1 culture, science, etc as a reminder so I could think about placing my districts. I got an early war dec from Ethiopia and he basically killed his entire standing army trying to invade my two cities. It was glorious. I wanted my slingers/archers leveled up a bit anyway for when it was elephant time. I didn't take any of his cities, I just wanted to see Vietnam's defense in action. I'm mostly playing peaceful but Korea and Ethiopia are the thorns in my side, but they can keep sending their units my way until they have no army, I don't mind.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Goddammit why is there so many deserts! I set my map setting to wet and there STILL is a large desert. GRRR!

 

[Basajaun]

Hmmmm...I have a feeling Vietnam is only really viable for domination. She starts pretty quick thanks to her forest bias, but the district placement limitation is in my opinion, "too limiting". There are too few marshes to make use of the production bonus, and destroying forests and rainforest without being able to chop, just to be able to place a pretty mediocre district slows her down a ton.
It limits city placement a lot too, because any spot that doesnt have a bunch of features is limited to city center buildings, non specialty districts and tile improvements, which she has none.
Comparing to other civs, @T200 epic speed Im about 1/3 behind in progress
The elephants are very strong and the movement bonus from friendly territory and features are very useful for exploring, offense and defense, hence my "only really viable for domination" comment, but the rest of the pack... meh.

Perhaps Im playing them the wrong way too, feel free to throw a tip my way

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Hmmmm...I have a feeling Vietnam is only really viable for domination. She starts pretty quick thanks to her forest bias, but the district placement limitation is in my opinion, "too limiting". There are too few marshes to make use of the production bonus, and destroying forests and rainforest without being able to chop, just to be able to place a pretty mediocre district slows her down a ton.
It limits city placement a lot too, because any spot that doesnt have a bunch of features is limited to city center buildings, non specialty districts and tile improvements, which she has none.
Comparing to other civs, @T200 epic speed Im about 1/3 behind in progress
The elephants are very strong and the movement bonus from friendly territory and features are very useful for exploring, offense and defense, hence my "only really viable for domination" comment, but the rest of the pack... meh.

Perhaps Im playing them the wrong way too, feel free to throw a tip my way

are you even using Thanh correctly? it is a good source of tourism you know.

 

[Westwall]

It's possible Firaxis didn't design them with victory in mind, just turtling and waiting out the heat death of the universe.

Side note: Since Thailand/Siam still isn't in the game, I'm just going to headcanon this gulf as being named after some long dead/mythical civilization on this world, forever lost to the sands of time. All except for this one gulf, christened since ages immemorial.

 

[Buktu]

It limits city placement a lot too, because any spot that doesnt have a bunch of features is limited to city center buildings, non specialty districts and tile improvements, which she has none.

You can plant woods earlier with her though so unless you settle in desert/snow you should always be able to place all the districts you want from the medival era (and use whatever feature you have earlier, if coastal you can always go for harbours as well for example). They might be a little more expensive since you have to use a build charge though.
You could also try and set the rainfall level to wet to start with more features.

 

[Basajaun]

are you even using Thanh correctly? it is a good source of tourism you know.

thats what I mean, either you destroy an naturally high productive rainforest to boost the thanh with mediocre (and 0) adjacency districts around it, or you have your districts spread trying to grab adjacency for them, but gimping the thanh in the process. Regardless, +2 culture per adjacent district is pretty meh too imho, especially considering mentioned placement limitations AND that it doesnt improve its yields if you progress further in civics like many other civs unique culture improvements do. Compare it with Kupe and the Marae for example. A building in a district that boosts the tiles. Not a district that is boosted by the districts around it, destroying the tiles.

You can plant woods earlier with her though so unless you settle in desert/snow you should always be able to place all the districts you want from the medival era (and use whatever feature you have earlier, if coastal you can always go for harbours as well for example). They might be a little more expensive since you have to use a build charge though.
You could also try and set the rainfall level to wet to start with more features.

True, I was aiming for that, but I feel like getting there is much slower with her than it is with basically any other civ without those limitations.
Im just doing a "fair" comparison with other civs, so a standard config like I do for other civs that I play, otherwise its giving an unfair advantage towards other civs that might spawn in my game. I mean I hear you, but playing a cold world with Russia is just mean as it is playing Terra with Kupe etc

 

[Buktu]

True, I was aiming for that, but I feel like getting there is much slower with her than it is with basically any other civ without those limitations.
Im just doing a "fair" comparison with other civs, so a standard config like I do for other civs that I play, otherwise its giving an unfair advantage towards other civs that might spawn in my game. I mean I hear you, but playing a cold world with Russia is just mean as it is playing Terra with Kupe etc

How much high adjacency TS do you have that early though? I feel like most of my early culture is coming from monuments, pingala and pops. (Maybe add in a pantheon as well.) You can get all that with vietnam too. Plus you can get at least a few UDs with some extra culture (instead of a few good TS, you can also build those Thans faster and they dont take up a district slot) and another bit of culture from your districts on woods. So on paper she should be able to get there even faster than most other civs. And lets be fair most cities (excluding maybe the first 3 or 4 which should have enough features anyway since her start bias is torwards features) didnt grow enough to support more than 2 to 3 districts at that point anyway.

And fair point about fair comparisons there.

 

[Basajaun]

How much high adjacency TS do you have that early though? I feel like most of my early culture is coming from monuments, pingala and pops. (Maybe add in a pantheon as well.) You can get all that with vietnam too. Plus you can get at least a few UDs with some extra culture (instead of a few good TS, you can also build those Thans faster and they dont take up a district slot) and another bit of culture from your districts on woods. So on paper she should be able to get there even faster than most other civs. And lets be fair most cities (excluding maybe the first 3 or 4 which should have enough features anyway since her start bias is torwards features) didnt grow enough to support more than 2 to 3 districts at that point anyway.

And fair point about fair comparisons there.

Then comes China, builds a bunch of walls, and completely dwarfs your tourism efforts with a bunch of builders . Granted, a bit later in the civis tree to get culture&tourism from adjacent segments, but at least he can take advantage of the production when destroying those features, and the gain afterwards feels much more significant. Plus he was able to get there much quicker thanks to all the money made before tourism from those walls, therefore being able to buy more builders on location, the extra builder charge and rushing wonders. Other examples Cleopatras Sphynx, Gilgameshs Ziggurat, Frances Chateau... they all feel much more viable to me regarding tourism.

Edit: Oooops! I missed that woods can be built in medieval faires. BIG one to miss, so my previous opinions might change, I have to restart and play accordingly.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

thats what I mean, either you destroy an naturally high productive rainforest to boost the thanh with mediocre (and 0) adjacency districts around it, or you have your districts spread trying to grab adjacency for them, but gimping the thanh in the process. Regardless, +2 culture per adjacent district is pretty meh too imho, especially considering mentioned placement limitations AND that it doesnt improve its yields if you progress further in civics like many other civs unique culture improvements do. Compare it with Kupe and the Marae for example. A building in a district that boosts the tiles. Not a district that is boosted by the districts around it, destroying the tiles.

But it's a cheap (and no pop cost) district that puts free monuments in places where monuments have no business being.

 

[walkerjks]

I thought Vietnam would be better for cultural wins than they are. I guess I over-estimated the benefit of the district science and culture bonuses. By the time you have many districts with buildings in them to get your +1/building, that amount really doesn't move the needle much anymore.

I do need to try a Vietnam + La Venta + early forest planting + somehow get early flight to see if I can push Colossal Head spam to a quickish win. There's potential there for a flight-based fast cultural win by going campus first everywhere and then leveraging the early forest planting.

Early forest planting can also lead to some appeal-based cultural wins. Chopping jungle and replacing with forest is certainly attractive. With Anansi, might be able to get medieval faires by turn 65 or so. Don't know how much that matters, but at the very least, could really ramp up faith with La Venta and Earth Goddess leading to more expansion. Anyway, will have to push it and see.

They certainly are pretty great at defending their territory with limited military units.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I finished my first Vietnam game (small pangea, 4 cities, king, normal speed, no modes & mods) and finished about 30 turns earlier than my usual science victories with the Maya (~260 vs. ~290).

Maybe I was particularly lucky in this game, but overall I felt that Vietnam is a pretty steady CIV once you unlock the wood planting ability, I really appreciate the ability to get lumber mills for my weaker cities. That said, I never realized how awful jungle really is when it comes to appeal (lesson learned: don't put a preserve on it). And boy, can floodplains ruin your day with this CIV, I had some really cool spots where I just couldn't get my usual aqueduct + dam + industry combo going.

My current approach is to chop everything not needed and then re-plant forests with feudalism builders later down the line, only keeping a small farm diamond or rectangle for each city. Preservers seem like pretty solid mid game districts - situational, but easier to use for them than anybody else, and the extra faith allows you to completely skip on Holy Sites. Reyna can give some nice extra yield & appeal synergy for your city with the best terrain setup.

I also noticed what seems to be a bug/oversight: I think the game won't show you the old/new forest designations in tooltips until you research conservation, which can be a wee bit annoying. Tooltip warning for chopping are in place, thankfully.

Mo

Overall second impression: Quite solid CIV, pretty much made for a casual tall turtle player like me.