Vikings for Civ7

[The Fanatical]

Of course they didn't stop existing, at least no more than other groups of people. But they did diverge eventually into different kingdoms like Kievan Rus, Denmark, and the Normans which are all civs that can be represented in the Exploration Age, which is all I am saying.

You aren't wrong, I personally want to see the Kievan Rus' and the Danes in there, but If we get Denmark in the Exploration Age, there is no reason to get a blob Norse civilization as a precursor in the first age in my opinion. Imagine getting the Visigoths in the second age, and the Goths in the first.

I agree that the Goths will be probable to come, but I'm not sure as a precursor to the Norse.

Why not? They were both Germanic, and the former preceded the latter. I think the path Goths -> Norse will be in the game. There is no way Firaxis will put those two Germanic civilizations in the same age. This feels to me like Venice and Rome in the same era.

I will add another reason for the inclusion of the Norse in the second age. The infamous Viking Age (8th-11th centuries) happened in the Middle Ages, which are represented in the Exploration Age.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

You aren't wrong, I personally want to see the Kievan Rus' and the Danes in there, but If we get Denmark in the Exploration Age, there is no reason to get a blob Norse civilization as a precursor in the first age in my opinion. Imagine getting the Visigoths in the second age, and the Goths in the first.

I guess I'd personally want to see post-Viking Kalmar Union Denmark personally, so that's why I don't think having both would be redundant.

Why not? They were both Germanic, and the former preceded the latter. I think the path Goths -> Norse will be in the game. There is no way Firaxis will put those two Germanic civilizations in the same age. This feels to me like Venice and Rome in the same era.

I personally feel like they are going to want different representations of the Germanic, one from the north of Europe and one from the south. The Goths to me feel like they will be centered around the Ostrogothic and Visigothic Kingdoms around the Mediterranean.

 

[Evie]

Every era of the game is about expansion. It's a 4x, that's the nature of the beast. But the second era reward expansion in distant lands (eg, on other continents), where expansion on your own continent (ie, Europe for the Norse) is something you're supposed to have already done by that point. Norse expansion is thus not representative of the kind of expansion Exploration focus on.

And the Goths association with Scandinavia is half-mythology, half-speculation, all-uncertainty for a people whose historical records are all much further south, maaaaybe around Poland and the Baltic and heading into the Balkans, Spain and Italy. Even Germany as Gothic successor is a largely dubious choice, and Norse as Gothic successor is far worse. They're a massive stretch that would exist only to justify Exploration norse, not the so-called "perfect candidate".

 

[Willie5000]

That logic is understandable. But it would also be weird seeing Normans and Vikings/Norse coexist in the same age, when the former are descended from them.

But this way we can also get an Exploration Age Denmark that doesn't have to be Viking-themed.

Not really, Norman’s are Norman and Vikings are Vikings. They weren’t really the same thing.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Not really, Norman’s are Norman and Vikings are Vikings. They weren’t really the same thing.

The Normans are descendants from the Norse Viking settlers that settled in what is now Normandy.

 

[Willie5000]

The Normans are descendants from the Norse Viking settlers that settled in what is now Normandy.

I’m aware but they’re still different cultures

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I’m aware but they’re still different cultures

Well yes, I'm aware of that too. My question is if the Norse/Vikings are in Exploration Age who would they come from?

In my opinion civs like the Normans, Kievan Rus, and Kalmar Union Denmark could easily come from them, all being descended from the Norse people themselves.

 

[Willie5000]

Well yes, I'm aware of that too. My question is if the Norse/Vikings are in Exploration Age who would they come from?

In my opinion civs like the Normans, Kievan Rus, and Kalmar Union Denmark could easily come from them, all being descended from the Norse people themselves.

They don’t have to come from anything. Not every civilization needs a set precedent and descendent.

 

[Evie]

They don't need it, but not having the Norse unlock the Norman would be a new level of ridiculous, given that the Norman are very literally descended form the Norse in so many words.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

The Normans are descendants from the Norse Viking settlers that settled in what is now Normandy.

More of Off Shots.
And Vikings (or at least, longships) still around even into 15th Century, the final evolution stage is that one was armed with prowl mounted cannon just like Mediterranean galleys.

 

[Evie]

The final evolution stage was an outdated ship that was fading out of use from the 1200s onward and went entirely out of use by the 1400s ; and even in the 1200s it was no longer anything to do with Vikings, just a levy ship serving the established Scandinavian kings. By that point also, the transition from old Eastern and Western Norse language into old Norwegian, Swedish and Danish was well underway, and it is frankly just inaccurate to speak of Norse or Vikings for anything in late Medieval Scandinavia (or the Normans, or the various early Russian princes).

And I frankly question anyone who try to downplay the relation between Norse and Normans as an "off-shot".

 

[The Fanatical]

I guess I'd personally want to see post-Viking Kalmar Union Denmark personally, so that's why I don't think having both would be redundant.

I personally feel like they are going to want different representations of the Germanic, one from the north of Europe and one from the south. The Goths to me feel like they will be centered around the Ostrogothic and Visigothic Kingdoms around the Mediterranean.

Kalmar Union included Norway, Denmark and Sweden. We got Viking Norway in Civilization VI, so It would feel better If we get the Danes with a Viking coat in Exploration and the Swedish Empire in the Modern. To me and probably to most people a Scandinavian civilization without a Viking focus is like Greece without Hoplites, thus I believe that the Exploration Age needs to feature that Viking civilization.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

To me and probably to most people a Scandinavian civilization without a Viking focus is like Greece without Hoplites, thus I believe that the Exploration Age needs to feature that Viking civilization.

I agree with you, I just wanted to move the Viking Norse civ back to Antiquity. Norse> Kalmar Denmark>Swedish Empire would be my preferred Scandinavian path.

 

[The Fanatical]

I agree with you, I just wanted to move the Viking Norse civ back to Antiquity. Norse> Kalmar Denmark>Swedish Empire would be my preferred Scandinavian path.

Just to be clear, your suggestion isn't wrong, and even if it isn't what I want to see in the game, it's still possible. Who knows, maybe Firaxis will decide to go that route in the end. Khmer in Antiquity is a testament to that.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Kalmar Union included Norway, Denmark and Sweden. We got Viking Norway in Civilization VI, so It would feel better If we get the Danes with a Viking coat in Exploration and the Swedish Empire in the Modern. To me and probably to most people a Scandinavian civilization without a Viking focus is like Greece without Hoplites, thus I believe that the Exploration Age needs to feature that Viking civilization.

This is my liking.

I agree with you, I just wanted to move the Viking Norse civ back to Antiquity. Norse> Kalmar Denmark>Swedish Empire would be my preferred Scandinavian path.

^ NAH! My evolutionary path is Venetii -> Norse -> Swedes (Though Sweden is astrider, can be either Age II (late,) or Age III (Early)

Gustav Adolphe, along with Leonart Torstenson enacted immense military form, with the most important being to define Field Artillery (and how to use these propery), which ended Artillerist guild in process -- before that artillery crew were all guildsmen, not militarymen.

 

[Evie]

Agreed we need a civilization with a Viking coat, but it still belong best in ancient.

Having the "Viking coat" civilization unable to unlock Normans and whatever medieval Russian civilization we get "because seafarers belong in exploration" would be a complete design failure. The seafaring = exploration thing is a gross misinterpretation of the exploration age.

And Lonecat, we already have enough trouble finding good Ancient era precursor for actual slavic nations (given how extremely poorly documented and obscure they all are) without going and trying to shoehorn the Venetii into a Germanic path instead, when one of the few things we know about them is they weren't Germanic.

Norse-Denmark (late medieval to Early modern)-Sweden is the simple solution here, and bending over into a pretzel to shoehorn the Goths or worse the Venetii in here is just weird.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

^ NAH! My evolutionary path is Venetii -> Norse -> Swedes (Though Sweden is astrider, can be either Age II (late,) or Age III (Early)

Why would you pick a Gallic tribe as the precursor to a Scandinavian path, unless you are just thinking about the coastal/naval aspects?

 

[Evie]

He means the Veneti, a very poorly documented people of uncertain (but decidedly not Germanic) origins from the southern Baltic area, who may or may not be linked depending on who you ask with the later snd slightly better documented Slacic Wend in the same loose general area. In my opinion much too poorly documented to setiously include, and if we do merge then with the Wend and in lude the Wend, a) they should be called Wend and b)all their unlocks should be Medieval Slavic civs because we alread have a huge lack of Ancient Slavic options.

Not to be confused with the Veneti of Gaul OR the Veneti of Venetia.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Why would you pick a Gallic tribe as the precursor to a Scandinavian path, unless you are just thinking about the coastal/naval aspects?

This is what exactly I think about. Venetii was the first known people to build clinker watercrafts. and Julius Caesar used theirs to invade Britain.
Also King Arthur (who IRL could be a roman Dux)'s famous Prydwen was actaully the same venetii clinker.

 

[The Fanatical]

Agreed we need a civilization with a Viking coat, but it still belong best in ancient.

Having the "Viking coat" civilization unable to unlock Normans and whatever medieval Russian civilization we get "because seafarers belong in exploration" would be a complete design failure. The seafaring = exploration thing is a gross misinterpretation of the exploration age.

It isn't only about the seafaring gameplay, which it will honestly be restricted because If I'm not mistaken deep sea tiles won't be navigable in the Antiquity Age, thus limiting sea actions. Vikings were contemporaries with medieval civilizations. Their most famous achievements belonged to that age. In Antiquity, nobody feared the Norse raids. And personally, I want them to have a Viking land unit too, which will be absent from an ancient Norse civilization because of the medieval armament. So, if they appear in Antiquity, we will get only a Galley replacement. But a Viking unit (Druzhina or Varangian Guard) might also appear with the Kievan Rus'.