Virtues, what was the issue?

[poom3619]

Has anyone thought of a creation/customization thread where the community can create and contribute to a virtue overhaul? One already exists, but it is disappointing.

The "community" is barely alive now, and I find there's little point making a new mod just to make a new one when an expansion will be released in a month

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Knowledge doesn't work because it requires you to be at positive health early on

But again, in Rising Tide, the health traits will really help with maintaining positive health early on which will make the "extra science while in positive health" virtue better. So I think going the knowledge tree is more viable now.

 

[Ryika]

But again, in Rising Tide, the health traits will really help with maintaining positive health early on which will make the "extra science while in positive health" virtue better. So I think going the knowledge tree is more viable now.

Well, I'd say that depends. If getting Health from Diplomacy is a strong option by itself - then yes, Knowledge would become stronger in comparison to other virtues (than it is now).

But if getting Health-Traits is not a top option, then it's another investment that is needed to make the Knowledge tree work - and in that case, it doesn't really elevate the Knowledge tree, because other Virtue Trees will have the choice of picking better Traits and still work just fine by themselves - the overall strength-difference is not made up for.

With that said: I don't think getting extra health from the Trait System is really a "strong" option, as it's basically only extra growth and there are a lot of other options that do more interesting and (probably) more useful stuff. I assume Knowledge will, if at all useful, still be an option for the late-game.

 

[Red Menace]

does anyone find it strange that [MIND OVER MATTER] is in prosperity and [COMMUNAL MEDICINE] is in knowledge? I think growth being harder in beyond earth really takes away from communal medicine, most cities are going to struggle to get above 18 population which is three health maybe 3 cities will get to 24 which is a bit better, but the policy itself is still pretty weak,

If getting Health from Diplomacy is a strong option by itself - then yes, Knowledge would become stronger in comparison to other virtues (than it is now).

there are a lot of options to buy health using the diplo system, both buying it from domestic for example or buying it from the AI, doesn't SJB have a rent trait that improves health? there is also a trait that allows you to turn production into health.

 

[Doviello]

There is a lot of potential for virtues giving some bonus to the diplomacy system, from bonus capital/turn to giving something for each agreement you have, etc. So many new mechanics are being introduced, and nothing changed! Industry could boost water city in some way, Might could give some bonus to marvel tiles, to reward expansion / conquest, Prosperity could boost some of the new resources, etc.

They really dropped the ball here, and it feels like pure laziness.

 

[Ryika]

there are a lot of options to buy health using the diplo system, both buying it from domestic for example or buying it from the AI, doesn't SJB have a rent trait that improves health? there is also a trait that allows you to turn production into health.

Yes, that may very well be true, but the question is: Does being in positive health add enough to your empire to justify taking these bonuses or are other options just stronger?

Because if not, then these bonuses don't put knowledge closer to the other virtues.

 

[GenEngineer]

does anyone find it strange that [MIND OVER MATTER] is in prosperity and [COMMUNAL MEDICINE] is in knowledge? I think growth being harder in beyond earth really takes away from communal medicine, most cities are going to struggle to get above 18 population which is three health maybe 3 cities will get to 24 which is a bit better, but the policy itself is still pretty weak.

That's actually a really good point. Personally, I think the biggest reason why Prosperity seems so strong and Knowledge so weak is the spread of the health traits. There are basically 4 traits in all of the virtues that give global health, which is much more important than local health in growing wide at any appreciable rate. Might has 1 (based on number of military units), industry has 1 (number of trade units), Prosperity has 2 (flat +7 and based on number basic resources) while Knowledge has 0. Add to that the fact that Prosperity is the only tree to have some way of reducing unhealthiness, thus slightly circumventing the local health population cap, and it's obvious why Knowledge is viewed so poorly and Prosperity so positively. If [MIND OVER MATTER] and [COMMUNAL MEDICINE] were swapped, giving the health based on city size one to the tree based on growing big cities, where it would get more use, and the flat bonus to the more localized tree, both virtues would be viewed more favorably. Likewise, if the virtue in Knowledge that converts a percent of your excess health to culture (I forget the name) were reversed to be a percent of your culture to excess Health, the Knowledge tree would be a lot better, and it would fix some of the problem that Knowledge is paying culture to get more culture to buy more culture with.

 

[Cyon]

The prosperety virtue that gives health from number of resources will be even stronger with all the new water resources added. And a reason to have both sea and land cities.

 

[Veras]

Don't forget that idiotic Might virtue that makes you take enemy outposts that you want to destroy. That's not a useless bonus, it's a penalty.

Not anymore. On the Machimina livestream, they captured an outpost and this popped up the option of capturing or destroying it. So the Liberation Army virtue now only gives you the option to capture outposts when you judge that useful.

 

[GenEngineer]

Not anymore. On the Machimina livestream, they captured an outpost and this popped up the option of capturing or destroying it. So the Liberation Army virtue now only gives you the option to capture outposts when you judge that useful.

It's not a new thing, either. I just played a game yesterday where I decided to just go full might, all the time, and I still had the exact same pop-up asking if I wanted to keep the outpost or destroy it. I think it might have been changed a while ago, but since it wasn't spotlighted, people never got the virtue and thus noticed the change.

 

[Makenshi]

growth being harder in beyond earth

Growth in BE is slower and harder than in CiV, in my opinion, not only because of health issues, but mainly because in BE there is only one building dedicated to that, the Nanopasture [30%], while in CiV there were two, the Aqueduct [40%] and the Medical lab [+25%, for a total 65%]. Plus, the Nanopasture in in the outer ring, while the Aqueduct is early game, so the effects of the latter apply for a lot more time, and thus have way more impact.

Also, I heard the growth formula is different [and tougher] in BE.

 

[Ryika]

the Nanopasture [30%]

15% actually, the tooltip is wrong.

 

[Red Menace]

Yes, that may very well be true, but the question is: Does being in positive health add enough to your empire to justify taking these bonuses or are other options just stronger?

Because if not, then these bonuses don't put knowledge closer to the other virtues.

well the only way to truly know would be to play it, beyond that there is no other answer I can give.

Also, I heard the growth formula is different [and tougher] in BE.

it is, I checked a level 18 city in Civ V is 204 to 19 a level 17 city in BE is 399 to 18 so its about double food

the Nanopasture [30%]

15% actually, the tooltip is wrong.

even worse combined with just about every possible bonus (including quests) it comes out to about 50%.

 

[Galgus]

Don't forget that idiotic Might virtue that makes you take enemy outposts that you want to destroy. That's not a useless bonus, it's a penalty.

Scavenging is one of the few useful Might virtues. If if didn't require and lead to mostly useless stuff I would take it more often.
Field Research is actually one of my favorite openings. Three expeditions are practically a free Tier 1 stem and if you get more you can grab Computing and start spying very early. It's quite easy to leverage this early research boost into perpetual tech superiority. I think it might become even more useful when stem techs give affinity points.



Health from traits will tip the balance a bit from Prosperity to the tech track of Knowledge, but it doesn't solve the general weakness of Might or the power of Industry.

Yeah, I've never really seen the AI place an Outpost and thought "I really want to capture that!"
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Scavenging has some use, but it does little beyond a minor early game tech boost - and completely falls off at mid-game.

I have a similar problem with Field Research in how it falls off.

But I agree that the larger problem is the total filler virtues, not the one-time ones that become useless.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Not anymore. On the Machimina livestream, they captured an outpost and this popped up the option of capturing or destroying it. So the Liberation Army virtue now only gives you the option to capture outposts when you judge that useful.

Oh, they buffed it from detrimental to worthless. Cool.

 

[Galgus]

It's not, it's just too narrow, while Prosperity is so flexible. It's a bit like the problem with Honor in Civ5, but larger, because the tree is so much deeper: it's a great tree when you're at war. It's a bit of a dead investment when you're not.

If it had more virtues like Adaptive Sciences, it would be a great tree but at the moment, it just - overall - cannot compete with the flexibility and always useful bonuses of Prosperity.

Even it's at war bonuses aren't really impressive.

+50% XP from Combat in a game where experience is weak and maxes out at rank 2. Weak, but I don't expect much from an opener virtue.

+15% Production when building Units and +10% per upgrade. Won't help you at all on the battlefield, but it could be useful in the unlikely scenario that you need to funnel all production into the Miltiary late-game for an extended period of time.

+50% of each Strategic Resource. Decent, essentially means a few extra affinity units or buildings.

The only thing that really directly affects combat is a 20% Strength boost.

That is decent, but it's not really worth completing an entire Virtue tree.
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This is how I would change Might.

(Other trees would also receive some buffs, mostly targeted at filler virtues.)

I was actually working on modding it in, but I had difficulties with a perks grant buildings tool that I still need to figure out.
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Survivalism now grants Energy equal to 10x the Strength of slain enemies.

Scavenging now grants three times the Science from cleared nests and Science equal to five times Alien combat strength.

Military Industrial Complex now grants 4 Production in the Capital.

Liberation Army now grants Culture equal to 10x the Strength of all enemies killed.

Adaptive Sciences absorbs Martial Mediation's 1 free Affinity Level bonus.

Martial Mediations now grants Gold and Culture equal to 5x the Strength of all enemies killed.

Army Engineering Corps now grants +4 Production from strategic resources. The energy boost is transfered to Brutal Efficiency.

Brutal Efficiency now grants +4 Energy from strategic resources.

Joint Operations now grants +2 Science from trade routes with Stations per Station tier.

 

[Stringer1313]

In one of the recent livestreams one of the developers said they were not going to change the virtues in order to "keep the original balance." I tried to see if he was joking but he seemed to have a poker face. I would be astounded if they did not completely overhaul the virtues.

So either he was telling the truth, or he was messing with us. Which do you all think?

 

[Galgus]

Probably telling the truth, unfortunately.

 

[Ryika]

His answer seemed rather serious and I'd say it would be a bit late to start messing with Virtues and then having to re-evaluate all the Traits to fit the new virtues.

 

[Natura]

I'm quite astonished that no Virtues are being overhauled to integrate them into the new Diplomacy system. This is especially surprising given that Might should logically provide benefits to your War Score and Fear rating, and Knowledge should provide benefits to your Diplomatic Capital and Respect rating. Those two trees are also co-incidentally the two underpowered virtue trees. It feels like the devs missed a golden opportunity here to not only integrate their new systems more fully with the existing gameplay, but also to give Might and Knowledge some much needed love.

Oddly enough RT actually gives slight buffs to Prosperity and Industry by providing more basic resources, which means more Energy and Health.

It's not a new thing, either. I just played a game yesterday where I decided to just go full might, all the time, and I still had the exact same pop-up asking if I wanted to keep the outpost or destroy it. I think it might have been changed a while ago, but since it wasn't spotlighted, people never got the virtue and thus noticed the change.

It's rather telling that the virtue is so unused that when it pops up in a Livestream most people think it's a new feature.