Virtues, what was the issue?

[Halbbruder]

well the only way to truly know would be to play it, beyond that there is no other answer I can give.

it is, I checked a level 18 city in Civ V is 204 to 19 a level 17 city in BE is 399 to 18 so its about double food

even worse combined with just about every possible bonus (including quests) it comes out to about 50%.

In that case, having tougher growth is good because it slows the pace of the game. If CivBE had civ 5 formula for growth, we'd be seeing a lot more size 40-50 cities which will mean completing games very quickly through early growth snowball.

Even it's at war bonuses aren't really impressive.

+50% XP from Combat in a game where experience is weak and maxes out at rank 2. Weak, but I don't expect much from an opener virtue.

Ranks only max out at level 2 against aliens, just like in civ 5. Max level is 4 and there's a wonder (forgot the name ) that increases it to 5.

I reckon Might tree should enable you to unlock more diverse promotions similar to those in civ 5. In fact, not just for civBE but also in civ 5, Might and Honor respectively should provide unique military promotions as well as the bonuses they currently have.

Also increase health per soldier to 0.5 health per soldier. Because then you're investing health into your military and if your military falls, so does your health, so that's balanced in a sense.

 

[Stringer1313]

I actually don't see them messing with diplo capital in the virtues trees because I thought the philosophy was that you should really be getting diplo points primarily through deals and wonders.

*sigh* hopefully they will see how everything shakes out for a bit and then change up the virtues

 

[Halbbruder]

I actually don't see them messing with diplo capital in the virtues trees because I thought the philosophy was that you should really be getting diplo points primarily through deals and wonders.

*sigh* hopefully they will see how everything shakes out for a bit and then change up the virtues

I had a thought that they would either rework knowledge to contain diplomatic capital bonuses or add a fifth virtue tree for diplomacy. And then change Industry tree colour to yellow and make the diplomacy tree purple.

 

[Red Menace]

Also increase health per soldier to 0.5 health per soldier. Because then you're investing health into your military and if your military falls, so does your health, so that's balanced in a sense.

a diplo trait does that as well as the Might Virtue so you could get a high amount of health for having a good army, also that excuse about keeping the Original balance is crap, the original balance doesn't exist in Rising Tide, everything is changed with the addition of aquatic gameplay and the diplomacy system.

 

[Halbbruder]

a diplo trait does that as well as the Might Virtue so you could get a high amount of health for having a good army, also that excuse about keeping the Original balance is crap, the original balance doesn't exist in Rising Tide, everything is changed with the addition of aquatic gameplay and the diplomacy system.

Ah...forgot about that trait. Scratch that suggestion then.

 

[Galgus]

a diplo trait does that as well as the Might Virtue so you could get a high amount of health for having a good army, also that excuse about keeping the Original balance is crap, the original balance doesn't exist in Rising Tide, everything is changed with the addition of aquatic gameplay and the diplomacy system.

And I think it would be fair for the combination to grant substantial amounts of health with a large army.

 

[Lucius_]

I bet we see a virtue overhaul in the first major post-expansion patch.

 

[Red Menace]

I bet we see a virtue overhaul in the first major post-expansion patch.

the sooner they understand keeping the "original games balance" doesn't make sense the better for BE, because of how the new diplomacy system changes almost everything, war score, and new exploration incentives, its impossible not to change the virtues, its like if Gods&Kings never changed piety from culture to faith.
what if knowledge had a virtue that allowed you too keep all of the yields from artefact sets and get the Bonus, that's a virtue I would take.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

the sooner they understand keeping the "original games balance" doesn't make sense, especially because of how the new diplomacy system changes almost everything, and war score, and new exploration incentives, what if knowledge had a virtue that allowed you too keep all of the yields from artefact sets and get the Bonus, that's a virtue I would take.

Agreed, hell I'm surprised we're not seeing a brand diplomacy oriented virtue tree anyway!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I could see them wanting to avoid touching the virtues until they understand the rest of the game balance. (After all they would probably make it worse)

 

[GenEngineer]

I could see them wanting to avoid touching the virtues until they understand the rest of the game balance. (After all they would probably make it worse)

This. It's tempting to make a million changes at once, but that means if an issue arises, it becomes exponentially more difficult to identify what needs changing. While I do think that the virtues need some rebalancing and changing to adapt to the new systems a bit better (if they haven't already), I could see them waiting until some time after the expansion so that they can amass a much wider array of data on how the virtues fit the system at all difficulty levels. I think a lot of why the people here don't see eye to eye with the devs is that they don't play on the highest difficulty (the devs, that is). At middling difficulties, balance issues aren't as apparent unless they are really obvious, because that slight advantage to one option or another isn't the difference between winning or losing. So the devs design a game that seems pretty balanced at the levels they play, and the levels most casual people play, but people here get deep into the highest difficulty, so to them every imbalance is magnified and it looks like they didn't put near as much effort into balancing as they (probably) did.

 

[Ryika]

I could see them wanting to avoid touching the virtues until they understand the rest of the game balance. (After all they would probably make it worse)

Yeah, that's actually quite a good argument when it comes to balance. I think from the stream footage it's rather easy to assume that the release version of the addon will once again be the "inofficial public beta", and until players have found roughly balanced numbers it doesn't really make sense to implement balance changes.

However, that does not excuse the fact that they're completely ignoring the chance to introduce interactivity with the new systems. Adding new, interesting options can't make it much more imbalanced than it will be anyway.

 

[Galgus]

Agreed, hell I'm surprised we're not seeing a brand diplomacy oriented virtue tree anyway!

There is plenty of room in the Knowledge tree for that if useless filler is gutted.

 

[Barathor]

I could see them wanting to avoid touching the virtues until they understand the rest of the game balance. (After all they would probably make it worse)

Yes, this, plus I'd imagine Firaxis has quite a lot on their plate already as they scramble to get everything in a release-worthy state.

In my own opinion, they went above and beyond the content of a typical expansion and made some pretty bold moves into features that have never been implemented before in the Civ franchise -- which I'm sure took a lot of extra work to design properly.

 

[Red Menace]

There is plenty of room in the Knowledge tree for that if useless filler is gutted

what if knowledge had a virtue that allowed you too keep all of the yields from artefact sets and get the Bonus, that's a virtue I would take.

it could be a very strong virtue considering how much the yields get cut down when they are put into sets,

Yes, this, plus I'd imagine Firaxis has quite a lot on their plate already as they scramble to get everything in a release-worthy state.

In my own opinion, they went above and beyond the content of a typical expansion and made some pretty bold moves into features that have never been implemented before in the Civ franchise -- which I'm sure took a lot of extra work to design properly

Beyond earth needs a lot if BE is going to be saved in the minds of the fans, they are headed in the right direction, which is why I am confidant they can turn it into a more than worthy addition to the Civ franchise.

I could see them wanting to avoid touching the virtues until they understand the rest of the game balance. (After all they would probably make it worse)

makes sense but why did they say "we want to keep the original games balance" why? poorly worded at best, if they are simply too busy they could just say they have future plans for it.

 

[ZTZaorish]

Yes, this, plus I'd imagine Firaxis has quite a lot on their plate already as they scramble to get everything in a release-worthy state.

In my own opinion, they went above and beyond the content of a typical expansion and made some pretty bold moves into features that have never been implemented before in the Civ franchise -- which I'm sure took a lot of extra work to design properly.

How are these features bold? Half finish hybrid affinities without their own victories. A diplomacy system that relies on more plus 1 here plus 10% there. 4 new sponsors. (None of them are revolutionary)
Water cities are decent and somewhat interesting although I would hesitate to call them bold. (Already done in alpha centaur apartment from the fact they couldn't move at the time)
Coloring the tech tree, marvel quest that are just natural wonders with a quest.

I know this is subjective, but I really don't see how any of these changes are bold. They are an ok try, but ultimately still feel half done. I personally would be surprised to see this game go above 80% on steam.

In my honest opinion they went 30% of the way in terms of creativity. I think of BE as lower than a base product, and Rising tide brings it just a bit over the content we would have expected for the base game.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Half finish hybrid affinities...

They're only supposed to be half. Half of one and half of another.

 

[Galgus]

They're only supposed to be half. Half of one and half of another.

They have described them as their own unique philosophies on humanity's future, not just some scrambled mish-mash.

They would be more complete with air units and leader and city graphics.

 

[VCrakeV]

I think the problem is that the devs can't commit. The hybrids seem half-done, not to mention they were meant to be their own affinities, but are just hybrids too. Water cities are made to be different, but use the same basic improvements. I could go on...

 

[GenEngineer]

I think the problem is that the devs can't commit. The hybrids seem half-done, not to mention they were meant to be their own affinities, but are just hybrids too. Water cities are made to be different, but use the same basic improvements. I could go on...

Where was it stated that they were meant to be their own affinities? They have their own philosophy, yes, but they were never supposed to stand on there own. That has simply been something that everyone here wants to see, not the original intent of the developers.