Virtues, what was the issue?

[Galgus]

Where was it stated that they were meant to be their own affinities? They have their own philosophy, yes, but they were never supposed to stand on there own. That has simply been something that everyone here wants to see, not the original intent of the developers.

An incredibly vague statement from you.

It is reasonable to expect them to be more differentiated and complete after the devs played up their different philosophies angle.

 

[GenEngineer]

An incredibly vague statement from you.

It is reasonable to expect them to be more differentiated and complete after the devs played up their different philosophies angle.

It is certainly reasonable. But there is a difference between saying that they should have done more with something and saying that they abandoned the idea halfway through. The devs stated that the hybrids would have their own philosophy and lore in the background, and would be distinct conceptually, but they never said they were going to be full affinities, on par with the main ones having victory conditions and unique buildings.

Myself, I would love to mod in an upgrade to the hybrids to full, and have been compiling a " wish list" for what such a mod would entail for me to set as a goal when I try to learn modding after playing a few unmodded games of Rising tide. But with the hybrid affinities, it is a question of a different vision for the games than that of the designers, not the designers going back on their promise about them.

 

[Galgus]

I did not mention them being "full affinities" or having victories or buildings there, only having a complete unit roster and a complete graphics set.

 

[GenEngineer]

And again, that is a reasonable thing to want and something that should be in the game, but it was never promised in the first place. That's what I'm arguing against - not people saying that stuff should be in, but the specific statement of "The hybrids seem half-done, not to mention they were meant to be their own affinities, but are just hybrids too."

They are exactly what they are meant to be, they just aren't meant to be what we want them to be.

 

[Galgus]

It comes off far more as an incomplete implementation than a real design decision.

Really, who would choose to leave them as-is?

 

[VCrakeV]

Pardon my poor word choice. It's just that with how unique the hybrids are meant to be, they would essentially be their own affinities.

 

[GenEngineer]

It does come across as incomplete, and it doesn't make sense for them to choose like that given the available data, but all of the released statements indicate this is how they wanted it, and none of them indicate dissatisfaction on the part of the developers.

Hopefully they'll realize that it's an issue and try to fix it quickly in a patch (we can always dream, can't we?) but if they do, it's not them fulfilling a promise that they made late, it's them realizing they were wrong.

 

[Halbbruder]

I could see them wanting to avoid touching the virtues until they understand the rest of the game balance. (After all they would probably make it worse)

I agree with this, but it also raises the issue and perhaps near-impossibility of creating a complete product with this game. I mean, sure, why no hybrid planes and subs among other things, but with virtues, we still need to see how everyone plays this game before we know whether it's balanced or not. It also means examining the UP elements, too.

You know there's balance when each tree contains its own decent build, not to mention the broad virtue builds. Perhaps a greater incentive is needed there, too, but not until after game is released and when Firaxis releases its first patch with this expansion.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

@GenEngineer@VCrakeV@Galgus The whole point of hybrid affinities was to give players some form of gameplay benefits for getting points in multiple affinities since in base BE, there was none. So the gameplay itself always dictated that the hybrids would be a combo of 2 existing affinities, not unique affinities. This is why the upper screen still has 3 affinity counters, not 6. Furthermore, the devs always called them "hybrid affinities" which by definition mean "hybrids of existing affinities, not unique affinities. If the devs had decided to make the "hybrids" their own unique affinities then they would have just said "the expansion will add 3 new affinities for players to pick".

Within the context of the game's design goals, the hybrids do what they are designed to do: give the player gameplay perks for going multi-affinity:
- the player gets synergy bonuses for getting points in 2 different affinities
- the player gets hybrid upgrade options for many of the base units when the player reaches a certain level in 2 different affinities
- the player gets unique hybrid units which complement the strengths of the other affinity units that the player can build.

So, hybrids may not meet some player's goals, who essentially wanted new affinities but they definitely seem to meet the design benchmarks that the devs always had.

 

[GenEngineer]

@ SupremacyKing2 - That's the point I was trying to make.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

@ SupremacyKing2 - That's the point I was trying to make.

I know. I am backing you up on this.

 

[Lucius_]

I'm pretty sure the design goal was to have a more organic tech web, not fully fleshed out hybrid paths. I think the theory is now you go through the tech web picking techs you want, regardless of affinity, and not be penalized. The idea is to de-emphasize affinities, not to have 3 additional options. The hybrid additions are just a way to make that organic play viable vs the pigeonholed nature of the tech web as it is now.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I'm pretty sure the design goal was to have a more organic tech web, not fully fleshed out hybrid paths. I think the theory is now you go through the tech web picking techs you want, regardless of affinity, and not be penalized. The idea is to de-emphasize affinities, not to have 3 additional options. The hybrid additions are just a way to make that organic play viable vs the pigeonholed nature of the tech web as it is now.

Exactly!! In fact, you just paraphrased one of the devs. It was Dave who said that players will now pick techs based on their current needs and get affinity points as a bonus, rather than picking leaf techs just to beeline up one affinity tree. That is why they spread out affinity points to more techs, including stem techs now, not just lead techs.

 

[Galgus]

I'm pretty sure the design goal was to have a more organic tech web, not fully fleshed out hybrid paths. I think the theory is now you go through the tech web picking techs you want, regardless of affinity, and not be penalized. The idea is to de-emphasize affinities, not to have 3 additional options. The hybrid additions are just a way to make that organic play viable vs the pigeonholed nature of the tech web as it is now.

Which will create problems for players trying to use a pure affinity if they do not add in perks and buildings requiring high Affinity levels.
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@SupremacyKing2

They were always advertised as unique philosophies, and they will always feel incomplete as that without a full unit roster and city and leader art.

I'd be mostly fine with them saying that they might add it later because they ran out of time, but excluding those things makes no sense as a purely design decision.

Most of what makes Hybrid affinities interesting is their unique outlooks on the future, where they agree and disagree with their parent Affinities.

(Aside Purity / Supremacy, which is poorly designed without substantial differentiation from Purity.)

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Which will create problems for players trying to use a pure affinity if they do not add in perks and buildings requiring high Affinity levels.

I feel like Rising Tide basically gets rid of the pure affinity strategy as we once knew it and forces players to play a hybrid approach at least a little bit in the sense that they will get points in multiple affinities automatically from certain techs. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. It is just how the game will work now and players will need to adjust their thinking.

They were always advertised as unique philosophies, and they will always feel incomplete as that without a full unit roster and city and leader art.

Yes, the devs advertised that they have unique philosophies but in terms of gameplay mechanics, they clearly work as merely the combination of affinity points in two main affinities: that is how the player gets a hybrid affinity. If gameplay wise, they were intended as unique affinities, then why not give the hybrids their own unique name, their own unique icon and counter at the top of the screen and have certain techs give points to that new affinity instead of giving points to 2 core affinities? It seems like some players, like yourself, want them to be their own unique affinity since they have a unique philosophy, even though the player will not directly get points in this new affinity.

 

[Galgus]

The game gains nothing if it destroys the same amount of options it created.

As I said, the fix would be as easy as adding some high-affinity bonuses.

Fortunately that seems easy to mod if Firaxis isn't up to the task.
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We are talking aesthetics here, primarily.

Though it does have some game-play implications to lack a full unit roster, having units that don't fit the theme alongside cities and leaders stands out like a sore thumb, and destroys some of the immersion of the affinities.

Personally I'd like them to have a unique icon, though their progression should remain tied to their parent affinities.

(The icon could incorporate both colors of the parent affinities, perhaps.)

Your use of the phrase "unique affinity" is rather vague, and muddles a desire for a complete unit list and complete aesthetics with a desire for their to have their own affinity counters.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I don't get why people are so attached to getting all affinity points in one affinity, to the extent that getting point for free is seen as a negative.

As for the uniqueness or lack of in purity related affinities, purity always had a uniqueness problem. A future human space civilization would need robotics and genetic engineering, and all affinities start off as standard human to begin with so even straight supremacy is still part human. Supremacy isn't pure robot and harmony isn't pure alien so they are hybrids themselves. So a hybrid with purity would therefore still be mostly human. Half way between human and half human is 3/4 human.
The uniqueness problem of purity is in terraforming. The key thing that it would do and the others wouldn't. Harmony wouldn't change the planet and supremacy wants away from planet dependence. H/P would likely engineer themselves to breathe more than one type of atmosphere, and S/P would have the robots toil put in the alien wilderness and stay in domes.
Without terraforming, purity is only defined by what it won't do rather than what it does. Purity needs to terraform hard for it to have an identity that isn't shared with all other options.

 

[Galgus]

I'm not going to tear my hair out if I somehow get a point of not-Purity, but I really want focusing on one Affinity to be viable.
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Purity does research Robotics and Genetic Engineering, just not from an angle of becoming a robot or massively altering the human form with genetic engineering.

(Though they are okay with improving it from the angle of creating the "perfect" human, so long as the human form is preserved.)

The main themes of Purity are a wariness in changing humanity, terraforming, and remembering history.

I stress that last point as what separates Purity from the others beyond Terraforming and what it does not do - honoring and preserving the past's legacy is absolutely central to Purity.

(Whereas Harmony and Supremacy, in comparison, abandon it with their separate visions of what will be best.)
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Every Hybrid needs points that they agree on and disagree on with both Affinities, so it does not follow that none of the Hybrids would terraform.

Harmony / Purity could easily be envisioned as crafting a perfect environment to match their "perfect" race.
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I agree that Dome life seems more likely and thematically fitting for Purity / Supremacy, but there could still be distinctions.

I would have them create human-like AI's to serve them, perhaps eventually being seen as equals.

This would disagree with Purity in creating sentient AI's and with Supremacy's vision of a computerized humanity - Supremacy would likely also disapprove with limiting AI's to make them human-like.

 

[DefiantMars]

Purity needs to terraform hard for it to have an identity that isn't shared with all other options.

Mechanically speaking, Purity's new Affinity Wheel bonuses seem to be attempting to pushing them in that direction. 3 of their 4 effects are increased yields to their improvements, including Health from Terrascapes. Their 4th bonus is increases strength when fighting aliens. Which is another element to their identity.

Purity

• 2: +20% Strength and Ranged Strength when attacking or defending against Aliens.
• 5: +1 Energy and +1 Culture from Floatstone
• 8: +2 Energy and +1 Health from Terrascapes
• 12: +1 Food from Dome Improvements

You bring up a lot of good points.

With H/P, the way I see it is that they're taking the human form and human ideals and making "liberal" use of genetic modification and genetics from the new planet to make a humanity without the limitations of its past. Purity engineers brutalist tech, terraforms its environment to suit itself, and cleans up the flaws their genomes. From what I've seen H/P is designing a new humanity that can thrive on the new Planet without resorting to going "full native", so to speak.

This is deviating off topic. So to bring it back to the Virtue topic, I've always been confused about the Might tree possessing Adaptive Sciences and Martial Meditations, the Virtues that provide bonus Affinity XP and a free Affinity level respectively.

I suppose its meant to help warmonger sponsors keep up in tech by requiring less total techs to get their affinity XP?

 

[Galgus]

I view Affinity progression as part of Might's niche, which kind of makes sense with it tied to military progression.

I think Honor and might have shown that a military tree needs more than just military bonuses to be viable.

(Since there is only so much Virtues can get in that department before they break the balance.)