Virtues, what was the issue?

[Galgus]

With that, the game needs rewards for being very high in one specific affinity.

 

[DefiantMars]

I don't think I've ever played a game when I haven't been 'hybrid' to some extent and honestly can't recall a game where I have been pure, even when going Purity .

That's why I've elected to use the term "Core" affinities and "Hybrid" affinities.

 

[Galgus]

That term works well.

 

[Kutuzov]

That's why I've elected to use the term "Core" affinities and "Hybrid" affinities.

Indeed. But my post was made in response to the concerns raised by another poster:

also how will this balance out to someone who isn't going hybrid? is everyone just supposed to go hybrid to get the best bonuses possible? what do the Hybrids not have going for them in comparison to the pure affinities? it just seems like you will be disadvantaged if you don't want to have such a Heretical society when clearly the only true path is the path of the Machine

I am not sure that he needs to be concerned as it is likely very rare that someone will play strictly one affinity only. I have never pursued one 'pure' affinity exclusively in any single game I've played even if I've gone down 'the path of the machine' more times than any other affinity. (Harmony three times, Purity twice and Supremacy umpteen times). I've always had a second affinity developed to 8 or 9 at the least by the late mid-game.

We have all been playing hybrid affinities to some extent while deriving no real benefits from doing so since the release whereas now, we will get some real benefit.

The benefit we will derive from playing 'pure' is that we'll likely get to the victory condition faster which is, IMO, already a significant reward.

 

[hevans900]

I have never pursued one 'pure' affinity exclusively in any single game I've played even if I've gone down 'the path of the machine' more times than any other affinity.

Heresy! Filthy alien hugging hybrids!

Honestly though, a lot of people's strategies in base BE revolve around tunnelling lvl 13 in a single affinity and winning as fast as possible - so people do do it.

 

[Ryika]

I am not sure that he needs to be concerned as it is likely very rare that someone will play strictly one affinity only. I have never pursued one 'pure' affinity exclusively in any single game I've played even if I've gone down 'the path of the machine' more times than any other affinity. (Harmony three times, Purity twice and Supremacy umpteen times). I've always had a second affinity developed to 8 or 9 at the least by the late mid-game.

We have all been playing hybrid affinities to some extent while deriving no real benefits from doing so since the release whereas now, we will get some real benefit.

The benefit we will derive from playing 'pure' is that we'll likely get to the victory condition faster which is, IMO, already a significant reward.

If pure Affinities can reach the Victory Condition significantly faster, then Hybrid Affinities are not viable. I'm pretty certain that hybrid affinities will not need to reach 13/13 or anything close to that and instead maybe 10/10, which should be reached at about the same time as 13 is a single affinity.

Currently it is very rare for a person to have more than 2 points in any off-affinity for people who try to win quickly.

 

[Doviello]

I am not sure that he needs to be concerned as it is likely very rare that someone will play strictly one affinity only. I have never pursued one 'pure' affinity exclusively in any single game I've played even if I've gone down 'the path of the machine' more times than any other affinity. (Harmony three times, Purity twice and Supremacy umpteen times). I've always had a second affinity developed to 8 or 9 at the least by the late mid-game.

But that's totally up to the player play style. I ALWAYS went pure affinity, my steam folder has a 100 or so screenshot, and in them im always 18/0/0 or x/0/0. There's no drawback in getting 3 lvls of supremacy when going purity, i admit, but i go 'pure' any way for roleplaying reasons. As in RT, hybrids are looking really unattractive to me, with no custom art for cities, or hybrid planes/subs, so i'll probably keep going pure after messing with hybrids a few times.

But now i can't anymore! My playstyle has been banned from the game, because there's affinity xp everywhere on the tree, even on main techs, it's virtually impossible to go pure. Sure that's easy to mod, i just need to open a txt file and move xp from main techs to leaf techs, it will take less than an hour, but that doesn't make me less happy. It's not "very rare" to go 'pure', at least i've read quite a few users on reddit with the same concern.

Instead, they should have balanced the bonuses of going supremacy 18 with the bonuses you get going sup 11/purity 11 or whatever is the equivalent. The current RT system is hardly ideal.

 

[Ryika]

But now i can't anymore! My playstyle has been banned from the game, because there's affinity xp everywhere on the tree, even on main techs, it's virtually impossible to go pure.

So I assume you don't pick up Alien Ruins because they may give you Affinity for something that you're not actively pursuing? ^^

Overall, I don't think any "playstyle" has been "banned". You can still do exactly the same thing that you do now, go for technologies that you want and that have the Main Affinity that you're looking for. The only thing that has changed is the fact that you will pick up some free Affinity on the way. Yes, the resulting Affinity Score may not be as "clean" as it is now... but honestly, if that's the drawback for having more choices in the tech web AND making hybrids viable? I'm perfectly fine with that.

 

[GenEngineer]

But that's totally up to the player play style. I ALWAYS went pure affinity, my steam folder has a 100 or so screenshot, and in them im always 18/0/0 or x/0/0. There's no drawback in getting 3 lvls of supremacy when going purity, i admit, but i go 'pure' any way for roleplaying reasons. As in RT, hybrids are looking really unattractive to me, with no custom art for cities, or hybrid planes/subs, so i'll probably keep going pure after messing with hybrids a few times.

But now i can't anymore! My playstyle has been banned from the game, because there's affinity xp everywhere on the tree, even on main techs, it's virtually impossible to go pure. Sure that's easy to mod, i just need to open a txt file and move xp from main techs to leaf techs, it will take less than an hour, but that doesn't make me less happy. It's not "very rare" to go 'pure', at least i've read quite a few users on reddit with the same concern.

Instead, they should have balanced the bonuses of going supremacy 18 with the bonuses you get going sup 11/purity 11 or whatever is the equivalent. The current RT system is hardly ideal.

This. Even though, hypothetically, there is nothing keeping a player from only building one affinities buildings or units, it does ruin a bit of the immersion of guiding your societies ideals if hybridization to a high degree (5 in each) is inevitable. I'm hoping that either A: the techs that give multiple affinity won't be all that useful to a Core Affinity play, or B: there is some kind of soft lock on what affinity you are, that costs diplomatic capital to change.

In short: unlocking even the tier 1 uniques (CNDR, Xeno Swarm, Battlesuit) in Vanilla was a choice. Unlocking the tier 1 hybrid uniques (Nanohive, Drone Cage, Immortal) should also be a choice, not guaranteed.

 

[Ryika]

it does ruin a bit of the immersion of guiding your societies ideals if hybridization to a high degree (5 in each) is inevitable.

Is that realistic though? I can't see how a society would completely shield itself from other ideas. There will always be -some- who don't share all the same ideas. (Well, until they're properly reprogrammed. )

Firaxis would of course need to make sure that Affinity that is passively gathered on the tech web does not push you far enough that cities get buildings of that affinity.

 

[GenEngineer]

Firaxis would of course need to make sure that Affinity that is passively gathered on the tech web does not push you far enough that cities get buildings of that affinity.

That's what we're worried about though. Considering that the first tier of core affinity buildings unlock at Affinity 2, and the first tier of hybrid units at affinity 3, picking up some stuff from the other affinities seems inevitable. It's all a matter of scale - it's one thing if, by the point you've reached Harmony 10, you have level 1-3 in Supremacy and/or Purity. It's another entirely if, by Harmony 10, you're 7-8 in the others. It seems ridiculous, but the streams we've seen set in the late game always seem to have at least 4 in every affinity, even when the person says they were trying to keep to just one of the hybrids, and a lot of the streams were essentially tied in everything (granted, those seem to have been generated like that from the start to show everything off, but still). Without being able to see how much 'accidental' affinity piles up, you can't really decide if it will or will not be an issue, but there is always the chance that it could be.

 

[Doviello]

So I assume you don't pick up Alien Ruins because they may give you Affinity for something that you're not actively pursuing? ^^

Overall, I don't think any "playstyle" has been "banned". You can still do exactly the same thing that you do now, go for technologies that you want and that have the Main Affinity that you're looking for. The only thing that has changed is the fact that you will pick up some free Affinity on the way. Yes, the resulting Affinity Score may not be as "clean" as it is now... but honestly, if that's the drawback for having more choices in the tech web AND making hybrids viable? I'm perfectly fine with that.

I get xp from ruins from time to time, but early on those ruins don't give enough xp for a single level. Sometimes i get a lvl from stealing techs as well, but in such case it's fine, i never restarted a game because of that.

But xp from ruins aside, going pure harmony in RT, for example, means ignoring computing, physics, enginnering, bionics, robotics, fabrication, genetic design, and all the leaf techs connected to those. What you're saying is, i can still play my style of going clean affinity score, i just have to go non-clean. Well, then i can't really.

This. Even though, hypothetically, there is nothing keeping a player from only building one affinities buildings or units, it does ruin a bit of the immersion of guiding your societies ideals if hybridization to a high degree (5 in each) is inevitable. I'm hoping that either A: the techs that give multiple affinity won't be all that useful to a Core Affinity play, or B: there is some kind of soft lock on what affinity you are, that costs diplomatic capital to change.

A: Going pure purity means no terraforming (no improving floatstones!), and pure supremacy has to avoid robotics (no firaxite).

B: that would be an acceptable solution. Say we get xp from techs, but we don't level up our affinity until we pay a diplomatic cost, that would give me the choice of grabbing ANY TECH i wanted, with the choice of not leveling up an unwanted affinity, that would be the most sensible solution i think!

 

[Ryika]

That's what we're worried about though. Considering that the first tier of core affinity buildings unlock at Affinity 2, and the first tier of hybrid units at affinity 3, picking up some stuff from the other affinities seems inevitable.

Well, you don't have to build them. See it as: "Yeah, we understand how that works but we won't taint our empire with it." if you want a roleplay-explanation for why you don't use the buildings.

It's all a matter of scale - it's one thing if, by the point you've reached Harmony 10, you have level 1-3 in Supremacy and/or Purity. It's another entirely if, by Harmony 10, you're 7-8 in the others. It seems ridiculous, but the streams we've seen set in the late game always seem to have at least 4 in every affinity, even when the person says they were trying to keep to just one of the hybrids, and a lot of the streams were essentially tied in everything (granted, those seem to have been generated like that from the start to show everything off, but still). Without being able to see how much 'accidental' affinity piles up, you can't really decide if it will or will not be an issue, but there is always the chance that it could be.

The streams we've seen were done by people who more or less clicked random stuff, I highly doubt that you reach that level if you try to avoid non-main-Affinity Leaf Techs. I mean, just in case that wasn't known:

- Ring 1 Branch Techs give 7 Affinity
- Ring 1 Leaf Techs give 20(!) Affinity

That's the scale that we're talking about. With only Branch Affinities you will not push high-level Hybrid-Affinities (unless that ratio changes on high-level techs).

/edit: Jesus Christ, so many Typos to fix.

 

[Lucius_]

Those stem techs likely do not give enough xp for whole affinity levels alone. But most likely you are correct. It looks like 18/0/0 will be impossible to achieve in RT. If it is possible, it will require some major sacrifices. Most likely, after RT, a pure affinity game will look like 18/2/2 or similar.

 

[Red Menace]

Indeed. But my post was made in response to the concerns raised by another poster:



I am not sure that he needs to be concerned as it is likely very rare that someone will play strictly one affinity only. I have never pursued one 'pure' affinity exclusively in any single game I've played even if I've gone down 'the path of the machine' more times than any other affinity. (Harmony three times, Purity twice and Supremacy umpteen times). I've always had a second affinity developed to 8 or 9 at the least by the late mid-game.

We have all been playing hybrid affinities to some extent while deriving no real benefits from doing so since the release whereas now, we will get some real benefit.

The benefit we will derive from playing 'pure' is that we'll likely get to the victory condition faster which is, IMO, already a significant reward.

I don't usually get more than 4 points in an "off" affinity, so the way I imagine it a "core" affinity would look 16/5/3 and a hybrid might look like 10/10/4 I'm not concerned with having points in other affinities I'm concerned that the bonuses of going full hybrid outweigh someone who isn't, and I'm not sure the VCs still to work the way they did in vanilla but that's a different discussion.

 

[Galgus]

Indeed. But my post was made in response to the concerns raised by another poster:



I am not sure that he needs to be concerned as it is likely very rare that someone will play strictly one affinity only. I have never pursued one 'pure' affinity exclusively in any single game I've played even if I've gone down 'the path of the machine' more times than any other affinity. (Harmony three times, Purity twice and Supremacy umpteen times). I've always had a second affinity developed to 8 or 9 at the least by the late mid-game.

We have all been playing hybrid affinities to some extent while deriving no real benefits from doing so since the release whereas now, we will get some real benefit.

The benefit we will derive from playing 'pure' is that we'll likely get to the victory condition faster which is, IMO, already a significant reward.

By the end end game most everyone has many ranks in off-affinities unless they are trying to win quickly, but for most of the time I play I'm Purity only.

(With maybe a random quest giving inconsequential ranks in another.)

Again, keeping core affinities viable requires only that the developers design high-end affinity bonuses for them to unlock, to compete with Hybrids.

That or designing a system where players cannot, given enough time, theoretically gain all bonuses.
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Also, beyond the problem of making core affinitity strategies weaker techs granting two affinities seems to make things too easy for hybrids.

Why should they advance both affinities they need at once?

One affinity per tech is a better system - that or an overhaul where players gain generic affinity points from researching techs* and spend it in the affinities they want.

*(And unlocking Virtues?)

 

[GenEngineer]

@ Galgus - giving only one affinity per tech doesn't make as much sense now that the affinity experience has been moved to branch techs - a lot of those have stuff that is important to different affinities, such as Mechatronics having both Optical Surgery (Supremacy) and LEV-Plant (Purity). So which affinity gets the experience there?

I'm still a proponent of having everything but the upgrade system having a secondary unlock condition based on "Chosen" affinity, which can be changed on the affinity screen for an amount of diplomatic capital dependent on progress both in the affinity you're moving towards and the one you're moving away from. That way, Affinity still grows organically, and people can still develop the hybrid strategies as well as the core ones, but now there's no incentive based on grabbing bonuses from multiple trees, allowing each one to have a distinct playstyle and not needing to adjust the affinity requirements of buildings and such (since otherwise increasing them just means the game will end before they get a chance to become relevant). As for why upgrades are excluded, there needs to be a way to ensure that hybrids are still capable of unlocking the Tier 3 units, and the uniques being able to enjoy their dabbling in other affinities.

 

[Ryika]

By the end end game most everyone has many ranks in off-affinities unless they are trying to win quickly, but for most of the time I play I'm Purity only.

(With maybe a random quest giving inconsequential ranks in another.)

Again, keeping core affinities viable requires only that the developers design high-end affinity bonuses for them to unlock, to compete with Hybrids.

That or designing a system where players cannot, given enough time, theoretically gain all bonuses.

I don't think the "end end game" should be considered at all. The game has to last until the victory conditions are achieved, after that... whatever. It's already the case anyway, with techs being unlocked every 2 turns after a while.

But I see the problem with hybrid affinities being stronger overall. A simple solution for that would be a better power-curve for lategame-stuff. Civs that go hybrid need to pick up more early-/midgame technologies than a pure affinity can, so making later stuff stronger would not only serve the balance for hybrid vs. pure, but also make late-game stuff worth buying.

Also, beyond the problem of making core affinitity strategies weaker techs granting two affinities seems to make things too easy for hybrids.

Why should they advance both affinities they need at once?

That seems to once again be a non-problem based on false assumptions. The only techs that grant dual-affinity are Branch technologies and they only give about 1/3 of the affinity that leaf techs give. I don't think Hybrid-Affinities will get anywhere without picking up leaf techs for both affinities.

 

[Lucius_]

One affinity per tech is a better system - that or an overhaul where players gain generic affinity points from researching techs* and spend it in the affinities they want.

*(And unlocking Virtues?)

I'm really theorizing here because this kind of goes against the dev streams we've seen so far.

I'm thinking we don't "pick" an affinity anymore. You don't say, "I'm going Purity this game." Instead, you research techs you want or need and based on that you gain affinity. So if you have lots of firaxite around, you will choose techs that improve those tiles and you'll move in a Supremacy direction. But you also hate all this miasma surrounding you, so you get worker immunity tech. You have lots of fungus as well so you get the tech to improve those tiles. As you pick techs you need for your situation, your affinity forms.

I have a feeling that is the way RT is suppose to play and it will be a rare circumstance where the stars align and you end up a pure affinity. I don't know if hardcore role-playing where you start the game set on a certain affinity will still be viable, I hope so, but I'm doubting that at this point. Hopefully we hear more about victory conditions soon. That should shed some light on things, but I do think the concept of actively choosing an affinity may become dead.

 

[Galgus]

@GenEngineer

Then maybe it doesn't make sense for Affinity to be in branch techs.
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I'd be fine with everything Affinity related being unlocked in a different screen; and ideally Hybrids should not have access to core affinity units.
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@Ryika

True, at that point the player should have won already.

I completely agree that the power-curve change would solve the issue.
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Mostly I just think it makes no sense to give two affinities at once, ever.

Seems to cater towards hybrids too much, even if the numbers are low.
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@Lucius

In my experience with base BE it's not hard to make anything work on any start, provided you expand properly.

What does it matter that I started near Firaxite when my second city can have plenty of Floatstone?