Virtues, what was the issue?

[SupremacyKing2]

I'm thinking we don't "pick" an affinity anymore. You don't say, "I'm going Purity this game." Instead, you research techs you want or need and based on that you gain affinity. So if you have lots of firaxite around, you will choose techs that improve those tiles and you'll move in a Supremacy direction. But you also hate all this miasma surrounding you, so you get worker immunity tech. You have lots of fungus as well so you get the tech to improve those tiles. As you pick techs you need for your situation, your affinity forms.

I have a feeling that is the way RT is suppose to play and it will be a rare circumstance where the stars align and you end up a pure affinity. I don't know if hardcore role-playing where you start the game set on a certain affinity will still be viable, I hope so, but I'm doubting that at this point. Hopefully we hear more about victory conditions soon. That should shed some light on things, but I do think the concept of actively choosing an affinity may become dead.

I think you describe it perfectly. Players are going to have to make a paradigm shift in their thinking and accept that this is how Rising Tide is meant to be played.

 

[Lucius_]

Ok so let me say it like this. When you play Purity, do you get Autoplants? It's a fully automated factory that goes against Purity ideals. If you want Autoplants in your cities, you are embracing Supremacy to some extent.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Wanting to have no points in non-core affinities reminds me of playing Final Fantasy 6 when I was young. Anyone could learn any magic spell from espers but I was very careful who got what spells. Especially Shadow. He was a bad ass loner ninja so he should only have spells like Death, and Meteor, and, Demi. The cool spells. No healling or revive magic because he was a bad ass loner ninja. However that's stupid because why wouldn't I want everyone to be able to heal in case things took a bad turn? I even avoided other spells that still fit my theme because they came with spells that didn't.
I eventually outgrew that because it was just an obsessive compulsive habit that didn't actually make me enjoy the game any more, it just frustrated me when I couldn't make it work.
Now in this case we have people who believe being able to build something that gives extra yields from xenomass hurts their immersion. Or that a true purity civilization would pay full price for magrail maintenance on principle. I frankly don't give a crap. Someone wants the game to enforce their compulsion to limit themselves and therefore limit me too. That would make the game worse for me. So I don't want them to have what the want and I'm comfortable in this case saying I should get what I want and tough luck if it isn't what you want too.
Shadow's getting life magic, and Purity's getting xeno nursery access. And we both have to get used to it.

 

[GenEngineer]

I think you describe it perfectly. Players are going to have to make a paradigm shift in their thinking and accept that this is how Rising Tide is meant to be played.

Again, the entire issue with the affinities, specifically the addition of hybrids, has always been that how it's meant to be played and the way people WANT to play are different things. Hybrids are not meant to be on the same level as the core affinities, and as such lack planes and city aesthetics, but people still want them all the same.

@Galgus - I support putting the affinities on branch techs. The devs were right in that affinity really didn't develop organically in the base game, and adding it to branch techs corrects that. I would just like to organically grow in a targeted fashion, rather than at random.

@ MinorAnnoyance - the ability to do so is one thing. Whether or not you're required to is another. You could always grab Xeno Nurseries as Purity. The question is, is that the result of a decision that you made, or is it one that the game made for you? In you're analogy, you chose to give Shadow healing, but that was an active decision on your part that enhanced play, not the game stepping in and teaching it to him for you. The optimal strategy will likely involve doing exactly that, but that's why some of us (myself included) don't play at the highest difficulty, simply because they like doing certain things even if they are sub-optimal. Same thing goes with what Lucius was saying. The higher levels of play involve adapting your game to the circumstances. That doesn't mean people don't want to be able to roughly chart out their course from turn 1, like choosing to shoot for a Cultural or Diplomatic victory in Civ5, even if the state of the game results in that being more difficult than other options. Furthermore, it's the question of degrees - Purity getting a Xeno Nursery is one thing. A Purity civ getting up to Xeno Sanctuaries and Microbial Mines is another.

 

[Lucius_]

Ok I got it now. This should be super clear.

In BE, our affinity directed our choices.

In BERT, our choices will direct our affinity.

 

[Galgus]

Ok so let me say it like this. When you play Purity, do you get Autoplants? It's a fully automated factory that goes against Purity ideals. If you want Autoplants in your cities, you are embracing Supremacy to some extent.

I disagree: automation is not against Purity's ideals.

Sentient machines are, but not mere automation.

That would be akin to saying that Harmony hates robotics for some reason.

Wanting to have no points in non-core affinities reminds me of playing Final Fantasy 6 when I was young. Anyone could learn any magic spell from espers but I was very careful who got what spells. Especially Shadow. He was a bad ass loner ninja so he should only have spells like Death, and Meteor, and, Demi. The cool spells. No healling or revive magic because he was a bad ass loner ninja. However that's stupid because why wouldn't I want everyone to be able to heal in case things took a bad turn? I even avoided other spells that still fit my theme because they came with spells that didn't.
I eventually outgrew that because it was just an obsessive compulsive habit that didn't actually make me enjoy the game any more, it just frustrated me when I couldn't make it work.
Now in this case we have people who believe being able to build something that gives extra yields from xenomass hurts their immersion. Or that a true purity civilization would pay full price for magrail maintenance on principle. I frankly don't give a crap. Someone wants the game to enforce their compulsion to limit themselves and therefore limit me too. That would make the game worse for me. So I don't want them to have what the want and I'm comfortable in this case saying I should get what I want and tough luck if it isn't what you want too.
Shadow's getting life magic, and Purity's getting xeno nursery access. And we both have to get used to it.

I prefer strong assymetry in games, and when all the bonuses bleed together everything becomes less unique, and interesting.

I'm fine with Hybrid being strong so long as Core affinity builds are still viable.

Min-maxing is not a valid argument for defending a design.
____________________________________________________________

@GenEngineer:

Personally I'd prefer a generic Affinity yield section so that the techs researched wouldn't matter - aside the affinity requiring bonuses and buildings they unlocked.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Ok I got it now. This should be super clear.

In BE, our affinity directed our choices.

In BERT, our choices will direct our affinity.

Yep. But I would point that it will still be possible for players in BERT to play "like BE" in this regard. It will just be more limiting since there are more techs that give affinity points. So, if you do decide to play supremacy from the get-go, you will need to only pick techs that give supremacy points and accept that some techs will give dual points in another affinity. But you could pick a hybrid affinity and only pick techs that give those affinity points. It will just limit you to only the units, tile improvements, buildings and wonders of those 2 affinities.

 

[GenEngineer]

Ok I got it now. This should be super clear.

In BE, our affinity directed our choices.

In BERT, our choices will direct our affinity.

But that's the opposite of how I at least view it.

You're seeing it as a tech by tech basis, where our affinity chooses what techs we research. The rest of us say we chose our affinity to start, and THAT determined the techs later. In BERT, that option is in many ways missing, depending on the pacing of how the key techs affect affinity. For example, with some very exceptional exceptions, every game will pick up the first ring of techs, including computing, because you essentially had to at some point to unlock all of your units. In BE, that didn't affect your affinity, but now it does, and what we are worried about is the extent to which that, and things like that, will affect it. Again, impossible to know for sure until we see some full playthroughs of the game, but still worrying to some of us.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

But that's the opposite of how I at least view it.

You're seeing it as a tech by tech basis, where our affinity chooses what techs we research. The rest of us say we chose our affinity to start, and THAT determined the techs later. In BERT, that option is in many ways missing, depending on the pacing of how the key techs affect affinity. For example, with some very exceptional exceptions, every game will pick up the first ring of techs, including computing, because you essentially had to at some point to unlock all of your units. In BE, that didn't affect your affinity, but now it does, and what we are worried about is the extent to which that, and things like that, will affect it. Again, impossible to know for sure until we see some full playthroughs of the game, but still worrying to some of us.

An important point might involve the cost of the Affinity levels, and how that changes

So lets say you get 20 affinity points... enough to go from 4.0.0 to 5.0.0 but what if it isn't enough to go from 4.15.10 to 5.15.10?

Its possible that what order you get techs in might be important as well as what techs you get.

BE vanilla had a system whereby your non-highest affinities were more expensive.
Perhaps in BERT, how much an affinity level costs depends on the levels of Both of the other affinities (not just if another is higher)

ie Affinity level cost=10+total of all 3 affinity levels.

So eventually getting the whole web could result in very different level mixes (not counting quests, free affinity boosts, etc.)

 

[SupremacyKing2]

We have seen from the live streams that the early techs like computing only give 7 affinity points so not enough for level 1. So, players can still grab those important first ring techs like engineering and computing without committing to level 1 in an affinity.

 

[Gokudo01]

We have seen from the live streams that the early techs like computing only give 7 affinity points so not enough for level 1. So, players can still grab those important first ring techs like engineering and computing without committing to level 1 in an affinity.

by the way, the second affinity "tax" starts after lvl 3 in BEvanilla

	<Affinity_Levels>
		<Row>
			<ID>0</ID>
			<AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>0</AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>
			<AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>0</AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>11</AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>
			<AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>11</AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>
			<HarmonyPlayerPerk>PLAYERPERK_EXPLORER_MIASMA_IMMUNITY</HarmonyPlayerPerk>
			<PurityPlayerPerk>PLAYERPERK_EXPLORER_DOUBLE_DEFENSE</PurityPlayerPerk>
			<SupremacyPlayerPerk>PLAYERPERK_EXPLORER_CHARGES</SupremacyPlayerPerk>
			<HarmonyFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_HARMONY_1</HarmonyFlavorText>
			<HarmonyFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_HARMONY_01</HarmonyFlavorAudio>
			<PurityFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_PURITY_1</PurityFlavorText>
			<PurityFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_PURITY_01</PurityFlavorAudio>
			<SupremacyFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_SUPREMACY_1</SupremacyFlavorText>
			<SupremacyFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_SUPREMACY_01</SupremacyFlavorAudio>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>12</AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>
			<AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>12</AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>
			<HarmonyFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_HARMONY_2</HarmonyFlavorText>
			<HarmonyFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_HARMONY_02</HarmonyFlavorAudio>
			<PurityFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_PURITY_2</PurityFlavorText>
			<PurityFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_PURITY_02</PurityFlavorAudio>
			<SupremacyFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_SUPREMACY_2</SupremacyFlavorText>
			<SupremacyFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_SUPREMACY_02</SupremacyFlavorAudio>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>13</AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>
			<AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>13</AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>
			<HarmonyPlayerPerk>PLAYERPERK_LESS_MIASMA_ATTRITION</HarmonyPlayerPerk>
			<PurityPlayerPerk>PLAYERPERK_ALIEN_COMBAT_MOD</PurityPlayerPerk>
			<SupremacyPlayerPerk>PLAYERPERK_ROUTE_MAINTENANCE_MOD</SupremacyPlayerPerk>
			<HarmonyFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_HARMONY_3</HarmonyFlavorText>
			<HarmonyFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_HARMONY_03</HarmonyFlavorAudio>
			<PurityFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_PURITY_3</PurityFlavorText>
			<PurityFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_PURITY_03</PurityFlavorAudio>
			<SupremacyFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_SUPREMACY_3</SupremacyFlavorText>
			<SupremacyFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_SUPREMACY_03</SupremacyFlavorAudio>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			[B]<AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>14</AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>
			<AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>16</AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>[/B]
			<HarmonyFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_HARMONY_4</HarmonyFlavorText>
			<HarmonyFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_HARMONY_04</HarmonyFlavorAudio>
			<PurityFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_PURITY_4</PurityFlavorText>
			<PurityFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_PURITY_04</PurityFlavorAudio>
			<SupremacyFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_SUPREMACY_4</SupremacyFlavorText>
			<SupremacyFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_SUPREMACY_04</SupremacyFlavorAudio>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>16</AffinityValueNeededAsDominant>
			<AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>20</AffinityValueNeededAsNonDominant>
			<HarmonyFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_HARMONY_5</HarmonyFlavorText>
			<HarmonyFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_HARMONY_05</HarmonyFlavorAudio>
			<PurityFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_PURITY_5</PurityFlavorText>
			<PurityFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_PURITY_05</PurityFlavorAudio>
			<SupremacyFlavorText>TXT_KEY_AFFINITY_LEVEL_UP_FLAVOR_SUPREMACY_5</SupremacyFlavorText>
			<SupremacyFlavorAudio>AS2D_NARRATOR_SPEECH_AFFINITY_SUPREMACY_05</SupremacyFlavorAudio>
		</Row>

 

[Lucius_]

We have seen from the live streams that the early techs like computing only give 7 affinity points so not enough for level 1. So, players can still grab those important first ring techs like engineering and computing without committing to level 1 in an affinity.

Do we know what level 1 affinity costs? I count 14xp of each affinity in the first ring essential techs. So after those will we be at 1/1/1 unless we purposely skip some of those techs? It sounds as if some people want 0's in their off affinities, which if that is the case, I think that might be impossible.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

BE vanilla had a system whereby your non-highest affinities were more expensive.

Yup, but that and the diplomacy aspect of affinity only kicked in at (I think ) level 5. There's really no way to accidentally get to level 5 is the wrong affinity if you're actively perusing a different one. So I still don't see why some are seeing getting a few points of various affinities from the early techs as a bad thing. Level 5 by accident simply doesn't happen.

 

[Red Menace]

Do we know what level 1 affinity costs?

I believe its 12points for the first level, but I'm not worried about getting 2 levels in a different affinity but rather that the hybrids get perks from 3 different affinity trees and someone who is trying to stay to their core affinity 8/3 not intending to get above 5 in an off affinity so later in the game the hybrids have 8/8/2 or 8/10/5 [or whatever] they have perks in three different trees where the core player 16/3/2 has all of his core affinity perks and 2 others, basically higher affinity levels should have perks such as 14 or 16 or 18 something the hybrids cant reach.

 

[Galgus]

I agree, that would keep core affinities relevant.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Do we know what level 1 affinity costs? I count 14xp of each affinity in the first ring essential techs. So after those will we be at 1/1/1 unless we purposely skip some of those techs? It sounds as if some people want 0's in their off affinities, which if that is the case, I think that might be impossible.

Since both engineering and computing give supremacy points now, it would appear that if players want to avoid getting level 1 supremacy then they will not be able to get both techs. They would need to choose one or the other. Of course, with the way techs give affinity points now, there is no harm in getting level 1 in supremacy. As mentioned before, BERT focuses on letting players pick techs first and then gives them affinity points as a consequence of their choices. So, players can pick both engineering and computing for the new buildings and units they give with the extra reward of getting level 1 in supremacy. It would only be an issue for the player who wants to role-play and deliberately go for x/0/0.

 

[GenEngineer]

With Regards to giving the higher level bonuses to core affinity, in addition to aforementioned methods, the rate at which affinity needed to level up increases could go up, making Level 10 to Level 11 cost even more than it already does compared to Level 9 to Level 10, thus pushing the game length out while making the final tier of perks and units for Core affinities even more out of reach for hybrids.

 

[Cyon]

Maybe a building quest or a virtue or a trait could give you a choice between:

Purge: - 1 affinity in the two affinities you have the least points in, +1 affinity in the one you have most in

Or

Diversify: - 1 affinity in the one you have most in +1 in the two you have the least in.

 

[Lucius_]

Maybe a building quest or a virtue or a trait could give you a choice between:

Purge: - 1 affinity in the two affinities you have the least points in, +1 affinity in the one you have most in

Or

Diversify: - 1 affinity in the one you have most in +1 in the two you have the least in.

This is a gameplay solution to a problem that isn't a gameplay problem, rather one that exists in some players heads.

 

[Galgus]

Immersion is a game-play issue, as is role-playing.

Game-play extends beyond simply what is optimal to win.