Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings

[Vokarya]

Not sure, bazaar looks like a civ specific building and requiring some resources was somehow compensating for making it available for every civ. But I understand your idea so all in all I'm neutral on it.

Bazaar is not civ specific. Bazaar is simply the first trading building, showing up an era before Market. Maybe it started off as a UB? I wouldn't be surprised at that. It looks to me that Bazaar and Market add up pretty closely to BTS's original Market (+10% gold/AND Bazaar plus +15% gold/AND Market = +25% gold/BTS Market, 1 Merchant slot/AND Bazaar + 1 Merchant slot/AND Market = 2 Merchant slots/BTS Market)

 

[Vokarya]

I noticed that there is at least one more building line that can merge into the Omnifactory, since it is supposed to be the producer of everything. This is the Textile Mill line.

By the time Omnifactory is available, Textile Mill generates at most +12 commerce; 4 base, +2 per resource (Cotton, Hemp, Sheep, Silk; Fur has been obsolete since Plastics). I think giving Omnifactory an additional +15% commerce will cover losing the commerce from Textile Mill. You would also lose out on Textile Mill's +1 happiness from Dye, but also Textile Mill's -1 health, and by the Transhuman Era, I don't think either happiness or health are in short supply (or should be at that point).

+15% will make it so that no commerce is lost from upgrading Textile Mill to Omnifactory unless the city has less than 80 base commerce. (80 * .15 = 12).

 

[Vokarya]

There are a couple buildings where I am still not perfectly sure I understand what the whole purpose is of having this building in-game. One of these is the Artesian Well. I understand what it is, and I'm not going to get rid of it, but I'm wondering if there might be some better effect for it. I definitely don't think it should upgrade to Cannery. I have a hard time justifying upgrading a water-producer to a food-factory.

One thing I did notice in looking through the XML schema is that we do have a <bProvidesFreshWater> tag. When this is applied to a building, that city tile produces fresh water once the building is built. I am not sure whether or not this is best applied to Artesian Well, Aqueduct, or both, but then we would need a way to not have the two trampling on each other.

 

[<Nexus>]

There are a couple buildings where I am still not perfectly sure I understand what the whole purpose is of having this building in-game. One of these is the Artesian Well. I understand what it is, and I'm not going to get rid of it, but I'm wondering if there might be some better effect for it. I definitely don't think it should upgrade to Cannery. I have a hard time justifying upgrading a water-producer to a food-factory.

One thing I did notice in looking through the XML schema is that we do have a <bProvidesFreshWater> tag. When this is applied to a building, that city tile produces fresh water once the building is built. I am not sure whether or not this is best applied to Artesian Well, Aqueduct, or both, but then we would need a way to not have the two trampling on each other.

I never understood the A.Well --> Cannery thing either, so I like the change.
I'd put fresh water on both, and make Aqueduct require peak or hill in city vicinity, while A.Well is available anywhere.

 

[Arakhor]

I agree with Sogroon.

 

[<Nexus>]

Iirc Aqueduct upgrades to something... errr... Water treatment plant?
I think those upgrades are not * viable for fresh water providing, so I think Aqueduct could upgrade to Artesian Well as well. (that's a nice sentence )

*EDIT: After a second thought it is okay

 

[Vokarya]

I'm getting a fairly good picture now of what I think we should do. I also did discover that there is another tag, <bFreshWater>, that is used on buildings that should require fresh water access.

• Aqueduct: Requires Peak or Hill in city vicinity, provides fresh water. Aqueduct also currently provides +0.15 health per citizen. Should this be cut down? Fresh Water provides +1 health to a city that doesn't currently have it, but that doesn't help a city that already does.
• Water Treatment Plant, Waste Digester: These are the upgrades to Aqueduct. These would also provide fresh water.

• Artesian Well: Remove all the food bonuses. Add provides Fresh Water. Possibly add +1 health as well? And then merge into the Water Treatment Plant?

Now, there are two other buildings that would be changed to use the Requires Fresh Water tag.

• Irrigation Canals: Change requires River to requires Fresh Water. Add +1 food from Rice (this was removed from Artesian Well).

• Bath House: Change requires Aqueduct to requires Fresh Water.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Aqueduct is still useful for big cities - it can give up to 3 .

On bath house, do the marble requirement and GP points stay?

 

[<Nexus>]

I'm getting a fairly good picture now of what I think we should do. I also did discover that there is another tag, <bFreshWater>, that is used on buildings that should require fresh water access.

• Aqueduct: Requires Peak or Hill in city vicinity, provides fresh water. Aqueduct also currently provides +0.15 health per citizen. Should this be cut down? Fresh Water provides +1 health to a city that doesn't currently have it, but that doesn't help a city that already does.
• Water Treatment Plant, Waste Digester: These are the upgrades to Aqueduct. These would also provide fresh water.

• Artesian Well: Remove all the food bonuses. Add provides Fresh Water. Possibly add +1 health as well? And then merge into the Water Treatment Plant?

Now, there are two other buildings that would be changed to use the Requires Fresh Water tag.

• Irrigation Canals: Change requires River to requires Fresh Water. Add +1 food from Rice (this was removed from Artesian Well).

• Bath House: Change requires Aqueduct to requires Fresh Water.

All sound very good

Note to self: Will have to check&update MCP UBs.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Also I think that in the effects part it should be noted that it provides fresh water

 

[Vokarya]

Aqueduct is still useful for big cities - it can give up to 3 .

I don't want to get rid of the health bonus completely. Do we want Aqueduct to have flat health or keep the health by citizen? If it's health by citizen, I would probably just take it down to +0.1 instead of +0.15 health/pop. If we want a flat health bonus, I would probably go with +1 or +2. +2 would be better than the current for anything below size 14. Even in the Renaissance Era, I don't think cities regularly go too far above size 20. At that point, unhealth should be kicking in.

In any case, I am going to make Artesian Well give a flat +1 health, provide fresh water, and no food bonus. This will slow down the Medieval and Renaissance Eras just a bit without that +3 food. Non-river cities will be able to build Irrigation Canals with any source of fresh water, so that will help the non-river cities a little. Cannery might be able to come down a little as well.

On bath house, do the marble requirement and GP points stay?

The GP can stay; I think it's a cute nod to the Archimedes-in-the-bath story. I don't like having Marble as an absolute requirement. I would actually like to increase the cost and change Marble to +50% production speed. For basic buildings, I don't like absolute requirements unless there is no way the building can function without a steady supply of the resource (such as Oil for Oil Refinery or Uranium for Nuclear Power Plant).

 

[Arakhor]

So, will the Artesian Well be just +1 health & fresh water? If so, you may wish to reduce its hammer cost.

 

[Vokarya]

Also I think that in the effects part it should be noted that it provides fresh water

It's included. I tried turning on the tag (no other changes) and I got this (first line of the Special Abilities box). It's probably imported C2C code. We haven't used this mechanic up until now, but if it's there, let's put it to some use.

View attachment 395978

 

[Vokarya]

So, will the Artesian Well be just +1 health & fresh water? If so, you may wish to reduce its hammer cost.

I can do that. Artesian Well currently costs 110, which is fairly cheap for medieval buildings, but I think bringing it down to 80 (same cost as Apothecary) would be fair. At some point, I think we need to do a comprehensive look at building costs; they are all over the map. In a quick glance over my spreadsheet, Seminary and Observatory are far more expensive than buildings at about the same column on the tech tree.

 

[<Nexus>]

I don't want to get rid of the health bonus completely. Do we want Aqueduct to have flat health or keep the health by citizen? If it's health by citizen, I would probably just take it down to +0.1 instead of +0.15 health/pop. If we want a flat health bonus, I would probably go with +1 or +2. +2 would be better than the current for anything below size 14. Even in the Renaissance Era, I don't think cities regularly go too far above size 20. At that point, unhealth should be kicking in.

I'm rather neutral on this, though I am more used to the +/pop. I feel it is a little more accurate in real life sense, but if you want change it, that won't increase my local rebelliousness

In any case, I am going to make Artesian Well give a flat +1 health, provide fresh water, and no food bonus. This will slow down the Medieval and Renaissance Eras just a bit without that +3 food. Non-river cities will be able to build Irrigation Canals with any source of fresh water, so that will help the non-river cities a little. Cannery might be able to come down a little as well.

That will be an interesting change
I wish it was possible to make Irrigation Canals give +0.5 for farms or something like that.
Hmmm... Fresh water means that farms will spread irrigation by that time. Doesn't that also affect /farm?

 

[Vokarya]

Hmmm... Fresh water means that farms will spread irrigation by that time. Doesn't that also affect /farm?

Irrigated farms do produce +1 food, but if irrigation is already spreading, this would only help cities that weren't anywhere near water or their water sources were all blocked off (chain your Farms from the water). I think you actually can't build farms without irrigation until Biology unless you are tapping a food resource.

 

[aggri1]

If the Artesian Well is a way of introducing fresh water to an otherwise fresh water-less region, then the Artesian Well would become very important I think.

On the maps I usually play, Perfect Mongoose with low sea level, there are often large regions of plains which have no access at all to a fresh water source. They invariably end up covered with cottages and tiny villages that can't grow (at least until those irrigation-less farms become available). If these could regions could be irrigated earlier, it'd make a big difference. Not sure that I'd use it, I don't put farms away from rivers generally, but for those all-dry-plains towns it'd help enormously.

... If that is actually made possible by this proposed change, I'm not sure I've understood that correctly.

 

[Vokarya]

If the Artesian Well is a way of introducing fresh water to an otherwise fresh water-less region, then the Artesian Well would become very important I think.

On the maps I usually play, Perfect Mongoose with low sea level, there are often large regions of plains which have no access at all to a fresh water source. They invariably end up covered with cottages and tiny villages that can't grow (at least until those irrigation-less farms become available). If these could regions could be irrigated earlier, it'd make a big difference. Not sure that I'd use it, I don't put farms away from rivers generally, but for those all-dry-plains towns it'd help enormously.

... If that is actually made possible by this proposed change, I'm not sure I've understood that correctly.

This is correct. I would really like to see what this does.

 

[<Nexus>]

Irrigated farms do produce +1 food, but if irrigation is already spreading, this would only help cities that weren't anywhere near water or their water sources were all blocked off (chain your Farms from the water). I think you actually can't build farms without irrigation until Biology unless you are tapping a food resource.

Okay, now I get it more clearly. THX!

It is sure to make the game a bit different and I think for the better.
I just wonder if we will still need the Ground Water Well improvement? I mean Artesian Well is available much earlier, and can do what the GWW cannot (adding fresh water).

 

[Vokarya]

Okay, now I get it more clearly. THX!

It is sure to make the game a bit different and I think for the better.
I just wonder if we will still need the Ground Water Well improvement? I mean Artesian Well is available much earlier, and can do what the GWW cannot (adding fresh water).

Groundwater Well is partway between Farm and Town in how much it can yield. Farm tops out at 5 food/2 commerce, Town (with route) maxes out at 1 food/1 hammer/9 commerce, and Groundwater Well's maximum yield is 4 food/5 commerce. So I don't see it as that bad of a hybrid.

Besides, if I remember correctly, the last time we took out an improvement (Olive Orchard), it utterly wrecked saved games. So I'm not in a hurry to pull any improvements.