Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings

[Vokarya]

Maybe we can just make Glassmith require Stone OR Salt? I considered that as well. I think the difficulty of the hoop has to be worth the payoff, and I'm not seeing it at the current level.

Also, most of the resource providers ARE National Wonders. The only ones that aren't are Potter (which shows up very early, and used to go obsolete just as early), Oil Refinery, and Steel Mill. I put a limit on Steel Mills (requires X Foundries per Mill) and I wouldn't mind seeing something similar for Refineries. The only thing I could think of was limit Refineries to cities with Oil in the vicinity, but that was shot down.

 

[Samson]

It seems to me that the rarity of getting both salt and stone gives the Glasssmith more value than it would have if it required Stone OR Salt. It means that as well as a happiness it gives you a resource that you can trade to everyone and an almost guaranteed wonder. It is rare to be able to build it, and I guess it would be nice to have alchemists labs more frequently.

 

[Rezca]

Salt as a resource could just be made slightly more abundant in resource generation perhaps.

With how Oil Refineries currently work, one single source of oil can supply every civilization in the game, even if no one else has one. Just build a few dozen Oil Refineries and wham - no one else needs to even have oil.

 

[S0crates]

Salt as a resource could just be made slightly more abundant in resource generation perhaps.

With how Oil Refineries currently work, one single source of oil can supply every civilization in the game, even if no one else has one. Just build a few dozen Oil Refineries and wham - no one else needs to even have oil.

This is true, also are resource generation/placement algorithms controlled by AND and not the map-scripts ? I do not actually know the details of how this works

 

[aggri1]

If it were possible, I'd love to see each Oil Refinery <i>consume</i> an Oil resource. That'd avoid the problem Rezca mentioned where one oil resource can supply the world with Oil Products. Corporations consume resources, as does one Civic (Coinage uses Gold & Silver), but I don't know whether this is possible for ordinary buildings. If it were possible, I think this mechanic could allow all sorts of cool things, including chains of industrial outputs. It would also open up much more Trade potential (e.g. a Civ might not want to build its own semiconductor manufacturing industrial chain, so it could just import them if other Civs are producing enough).

Oh the possibilities!

But I seem to recall that it's not (easily) possible. :-(

 

[<Nexus>]

If it were possible, I'd love to see each Oil Refinery <i>consume</i> an Oil resource. That'd avoid the problem Rezca mentioned where one oil resource can supply the world with Oil Products. Corporations consume resources, as does one Civic (Coinage uses Gold & Silver), but I don't know whether this is possible for ordinary buildings. If it were possible, I think this mechanic could allow all sorts of cool things, including chains of industrial outputs. It would also open up much more Trade potential (e.g. a Civ might not want to build its own semiconductor manufacturing industrial chain, so it could just import them if other Civs are producing enough).

Oh the possibilities!

But I seem to recall that it's not (easily) possible. :-(

Ohhh, yeah! Would be nice indeed

It seems to me that the rarity of getting both salt and stone gives the Glasssmith more value than it would have if it required Stone OR Salt. It means that as well as a happiness it gives you a resource that you can trade to everyone and an almost guaranteed wonder. It is rare to be able to build it, and I guess it would be nice to have alchemists labs more frequently.

Taking a quick look into glass making in wiki I have this idea: Make Glassmith require Salt and (Stone or Marble).
Harder than Stone or Salt, easier than Stone and Salt.

 

[Vokarya]

Taking a quick look into glass making in wiki I have this idea: Make Glassmith require Salt and (Stone or Marble).
Harder than Stone or Salt, easier than Stone and Salt.

No. The point is to get away from the absolute Salt requirement. I don't care how "realistic" it is. Salt is too sparse on maps to be fair.

 

[Rezca]

No. The point is to get away from the absolute Salt requirement. I don't care how "realistic" it is. Salt is too sparse on maps to be fair.

Can the generation of Salt on maps be increased? Or is it meant to be a very rare resource?

If increasing that isn't practical (Or worth it / wanted) then Stone OR Salt is fine as well. Would any buildings - other than the Tannery - benefit from having Salt afterwords though?

 

[Nimek]

Another idea is ro add salt evaporation pod building for coastal cities that provide salt resource

 

[<Nexus>]

Another idea is ro add salt evaporation pod building for coastal cities that provide salt resource

I think I like the idea, though it raises the question: Wouldn't that make Salt over-abundant? Even if it would be a national wonder AND only available for coastal cities, Salt would be produced by (almost) every civ. The question is: Do we want that?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I think I like the idea, though it raises the question: Wouldn't that make Salt over-abundant? Even if it would be a national wonder AND only available for coastal cities, Salt would be produced by (almost) every civ. The question is: Do we want that?

The problem was glass, maybe this way we could have salt and stone. Also, Afforess introduced a tag some time ago to let a map spawn a minimum quantity of each resource. Maybe we could simply increase that.

 

[<Nexus>]

The problem was glass, maybe this way we could have salt and stone. Also, Afforess introduced a tag some time ago to let a map spawn a minimum quantity of each resource. Maybe we could simply increase that.

I know that the problem was glass and it would be an indirect solution.
If you would decide to add salt evaporation pond, than I think it should require some medieval (or at least late classical) era tech, not to make it over abundant.

Just brainstorming...

 

[aggri1]

Perhaps the salt evaporation pond 'building' could be latitude dependent, though I'm not sure whether there's any real basis for that. Or alternatively, it could require X terrain (e.g. desert) in the city vicinity.

A terrain requirement may well help to limit the over-abundance problem, and might encourage trade (because desert is less likely away from the horse latitudes). At least on some map scripts...

 

[<Nexus>]

Perhaps the salt evaporation pond 'building' could be latitude dependent, though I'm not sure whether there's any real basis for that. Or alternatively, it could require X terrain (e.g. desert) in the city vicinity.

A terrain requirement may well help to limit the over-abundance problem, and might encourage trade (because desert is less likely away from the horse latitudes). At least on some map scripts...

Latitude DOES make sense, good idea (there are no salt evaporation ponds in Scandinavia)
but dessert in city vicinity doesn't. Desserts are rather dry, than hot (Gobi for example). And your dessert tile can be in the other corner of your city's area, so much would depend on city placement.

I think latitude restriction would be enough. We don't have to many things with it.

I only hope that Vokarya will also like the idea

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I support this idea if Vokarya agrees

 

[Vokarya]

I support this idea if Vokarya agrees

I actually am not in favor of this. I don't think pre-industrial salt evaporation produces enough salt to count as a resource (rather than just being part of the food production of coastal squares); I don't support turning natural resources into manufactured ones until the Industrial Era, where aniline (artificial Dye) and nylon (practically artificial Silk) COULD show up but don't currently, and right now we don't have very much else that breaks the distinction (I only found the Omnifactory and the Gold from World Trade Center); I want to discourage resource proliferation, especially when it's a corporate resource (Salt is used by Burgerworld and Wonka); and at this point in the mod, I would prefer solving problems by removal rather than addition.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Then I think the only solution is Stone OR Salt as you proposed before. Sounds good to me too.

 

[Rezca]

I really don't think any corporation should be benefiting from player-made resources, but at least the only one doing so currently requires National Wonder produced resources.

Actually, it benefits from the "will be in every city" Steel Mill produced resource too doesn't it?

 

[Vokarya]

I really don't think any corporation should be benefiting from player-made resources, but at least the only one doing so currently requires National Wonder produced resources.

Actually, it benefits from the "will be in every city" Steel Mill produced resource too doesn't it?

Steel Mills are limited by Foundries now. On Standard, it's 1 Steel Mill per 3 Foundries. I think Universal Soldiers is much more important for the XP bonus -- it's one of my most important corporations.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm in the middle of a comprehensive look at all of our buildings, and one thing that I am trying to avoid is "orphan" buildings. Orphans are buildings that have no connections to other buildings, either through replacement or through prerequisites Most buildings can be categorized as belonging to a line that is connected by replacements (like Docks-Harbor-Port-Seaport-International Port) or a group that is connected by prerequisites (like Library-University-Research Laboratory-Cloning Laboratory-Cloning Factory-Body Exchange Clinic) or being part of a special building type group (Myths, Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals, Civic Buildings). Buildings not part of any group or line are getting an extra look at. What I'm trying to really do is keep the number of buildings on the build list at any given time under control so that you see one part of the group at a time and not the whole thing, especially if you are starting with a brand new city later in the game.

Two buildings on my orphans list right now are the Beadmaker and the Jewellery and I realized that these buildings really serve the same purpose, so let's make a building line out of them and the Civilized Jewelers Store (which is part of the Corporate Store group, but we can still incorporate it into a line).

Beadmaker
This gets some small modifications to make it cheaper, thus easier to build early and get some use out of before being replaced.

• Reduce the base commerce from +2 to +1. This will ease the transition to Jewellery without having to power up Jewellery too much.
• Reduce the base cost from 55 to 40. Since I'm cutting off about a third of Beadmaker's effectiveness (going from +3c to +2c with one available resource), I should cut off about a third of the cost as well.

Jewellery
This gets some heavy retooling.

• Move tech from Metal Casting to Aesthetics. The reason to put Jewellery in the Classical Era is so that Beadmaker has a little time to shine. I considered Glass Blowing only because GB is a two-trick tech, but I think Aesthetics is more logical.
• Increase cost from 60 to 80. Jewellery is very cheap for its bonus if it is being built in the later game.
• Add +2 commerce; add Ivory to list of enabling resources and +1 commerce from Ivory; reduce commerce from Gems, Gold, Pearls, and Silver to +1. This flattens out Jewellery's curve from +2-8 to +3-7 commerce. It also means that you don't lose anything from upgrading if Beadmaker was being powered by Clam.
• Remove obsoleting tech. I think Jewellery only obsoletes to make way for Civilized Jewelers, but I think replacement is better.

Civilized Jewelers Store

• Allow this to replace Jewellery. In combination with Civilized Jewelers as a corporation, CJS will generate enough total commerce to beat Jewellery (Jewellery is +2 [3 with Ivory] and +1 per resource, Civilized Jewelers is +5% commerce and +1 gold/+4 culture per resource). Should this be not enough, we can add flat commerce to Civilized Jewelers Store.