45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
I don't think we have any use for this, let's cut it
Vokarya's Workshop: Units
- Thread starter Vokarya
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IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
Hybrid tanks v's Modern Armour
The ONLY difference is 1 movement point (3 for Hybrid, 2 for Modern) and cost, with Hybrid being slightly cheaper.
Strength of units 85 for Hybrid, v's 105 Modern.
Also on auto production, all tanks upgrade to the Hybrid, and not the stronger modern.
If you want multiple movement for pillaging, Helicopters offer 5 movement points and ignore terrain.
Further upgrades are lessor then the Plasma Armour, for upgrades to the modern Armour.
I propose removing these other tank models, as they offer only immune to 1st strikes, or invisible, or sees high tech units or other such fluff.
Who really builds them??? I certainly don't, I just spam out Plasma Armour and upgrade them to the National unit of Dreadnought Armour.
It just seems like content for contents sake, if they make a tech a 'viable' on tricks, then that tech has its own problems.
The ONLY difference is 1 movement point (3 for Hybrid, 2 for Modern) and cost, with Hybrid being slightly cheaper.
Strength of units 85 for Hybrid, v's 105 Modern.
Also on auto production, all tanks upgrade to the Hybrid, and not the stronger modern.
If you want multiple movement for pillaging, Helicopters offer 5 movement points and ignore terrain.
Further upgrades are lessor then the Plasma Armour, for upgrades to the modern Armour.
I propose removing these other tank models, as they offer only immune to 1st strikes, or invisible, or sees high tech units or other such fluff.
Who really builds them??? I certainly don't, I just spam out Plasma Armour and upgrade them to the National unit of Dreadnought Armour.
It just seems like content for contents sake, if they make a tech a 'viable' on tricks, then that tech has its own problems.
nionios
Prince
- Joined
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- Messages
- 459
Yoy're right about auto upgrade.More advanced units are ignored by auto upgrade when the upgrade line is not linear.(Infantry upgrades first to Motor. Infantry and you can't go to Modern Infantry.You'll have to wait until Mech Infantry becomes available).And if you play with No Transhuman Era you should upgrade Tanks manually if you want to have Modern Tank at the end.
Good point about the Hybrid Tank. I looked at it a little and here is what I think we can do for the Modern Era at least.
Gunship: Reduce base strength to 80 and reduce bonus vs. tracked to +50%. This will make it still better than Modern Era Tracked units, at 120 vs. Modern Armor's 105. But Gunship won't be invincible. 85 strength +100% vs. tracked would be 170 vs. 105, which is about a 95+% win rate. Also reduce Helicopter to 55 and bonus vs. tracked to +50%. Helicopter will be still better than any Industrial Era tank.
Hybrid Tank: Increase base strength to 95. That gives a 15-point gap between the Hybrid Tank and the Gunship.
At the same time, clean up Mobile SAM just a little by reducing its bonus against Helicopter to +75% (because someone gave it +200% which it really does NOT need) and remove the -25% against Tracked. At this point, Hybrid Tanks are available, and their new Str-95 should be enough to make it a likely fight but not guaranteed.
Hover Tank and Stealth Tank are supposed to be the light tanks of the Transhuman Era. I think they either need to be boosted or Genetic Soldier/Super Soldier need to be reduced.
Gunship: Reduce base strength to 80 and reduce bonus vs. tracked to +50%. This will make it still better than Modern Era Tracked units, at 120 vs. Modern Armor's 105. But Gunship won't be invincible. 85 strength +100% vs. tracked would be 170 vs. 105, which is about a 95+% win rate. Also reduce Helicopter to 55 and bonus vs. tracked to +50%. Helicopter will be still better than any Industrial Era tank.
Hybrid Tank: Increase base strength to 95. That gives a 15-point gap between the Hybrid Tank and the Gunship.
At the same time, clean up Mobile SAM just a little by reducing its bonus against Helicopter to +75% (because someone gave it +200% which it really does NOT need) and remove the -25% against Tracked. At this point, Hybrid Tanks are available, and their new Str-95 should be enough to make it a likely fight but not guaranteed.
Hover Tank and Stealth Tank are supposed to be the light tanks of the Transhuman Era. I think they either need to be boosted or Genetic Soldier/Super Soldier need to be reduced.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
If your going to go this Route, why don't the light tanks have a separate upgrade line.
Why do they all merge at Main battle tanks, then the diverge again into light/heavy/hi tech tanks.
Main battle tank could be the 'heavy' tank option, and you have a light tank option here, for greater speed v's lighter armour.
then they continue on their own upgrade paths.
Why do they all merge at Main battle tanks, then the diverge again into light/heavy/hi tech tanks.
Main battle tank could be the 'heavy' tank option, and you have a light tank option here, for greater speed v's lighter armour.
then they continue on their own upgrade paths.
Because I don't have a good early modern light tank. If I had one, I'd probably have included it. If you can find one, I can probably include it. Historically, the main battle tank took over most tank roles in the time period where we are missing a light tank (early to mid-modern eras). The Hybrid Tank already existed in AND as the T-95. I took the existing model and repurposed it from a heavy tank to a light tank.
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I also noticed that Anti-Tank is very underpowered for its time period. It comes in the same column as Modern Armor (105 Strength) and one column after Hybrid Tank (95 Strength after adjustments), but it only has Strength 50 and +70% against Tracked units, for a net strength of 85, less than the units it's supposed to counter.
I think we should boost Anti-Tank to 65 Strength and +75% against Tracked units. This will give it 113.75 strength against Tracked units, not quite as good as a Gunship, which is 80 strength with +50% for a net 120 strength, but Anti-Tank has the ability to target Tracked units in stacks.
I think we should boost Anti-Tank to 65 Strength and +75% against Tracked units. This will give it 113.75 strength against Tracked units, not quite as good as a Gunship, which is 80 strength with +50% for a net 120 strength, but Anti-Tank has the ability to target Tracked units in stacks.
I looked at columns some more, and I think SAM Infantry needs to come down in strength.
In BTS, regular Infantry is Strength 20. SAM Infantry is Strength 18, with +75% against Helicopters, for a net 31.5 against a Gunship with 24 Strength.
The current AND SAM Infantry is Strength 54. This is BETTER than a Modern Infantry, and with +75% against Helicopters, that is 94.5, not only overwhelming against a Helicopter with 55, but also very good against a Gunship with 80 (these are post-adjustment numbers).
I think SAM Infantry should come down to Strength 45. This would make them in general weaker than a Modern Infantry, but still have 78.75 strength against any helicopter, which would be more than enough to beat a Helicopter and just a touch weaker than the Gunship, giving you a reason to upgrade to Mobile SAM.
In BTS, regular Infantry is Strength 20. SAM Infantry is Strength 18, with +75% against Helicopters, for a net 31.5 against a Gunship with 24 Strength.
The current AND SAM Infantry is Strength 54. This is BETTER than a Modern Infantry, and with +75% against Helicopters, that is 94.5, not only overwhelming against a Helicopter with 55, but also very good against a Gunship with 80 (these are post-adjustment numbers).
I think SAM Infantry should come down to Strength 45. This would make them in general weaker than a Modern Infantry, but still have 78.75 strength against any helicopter, which would be more than enough to beat a Helicopter and just a touch weaker than the Gunship, giving you a reason to upgrade to Mobile SAM.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
I'd like to see Anti-Tank be stronger as well, it always seemed very underwhelming for where it was and compared to what it was fighting. It'd be good to see SAM Infantry be weakened slightly too.
As for the Hover/Stealth tank thing... I loved the Stealth Tanks. They were good for keeping watch on things and scouting around during conflicts, and they made excellent sentries in parts of my territory that were suffering from frequent revolutions since the spawning rebels would almost never actually be able to see them, so they could sit outside a city and not take damage from the revolt or the rebel attacks like the garrisoned troops do. Then when my turn rolls around, the full-health Stealth Tanks mop up a good number of the weakened rebels.
The 'speedy' tanks were always great for pillaging missions and I'd often have a handful of them on auto-pillage to cause havoc along with some helicopters to distract and annoy while my main stack went around assaulting cities. I'd be very unhappy if Hybrid/Hover/Stealth got removed, so I'd go with weakening the Genetic and Super soldiers a tad. Or boosting the tanks maybe? Not really sure which would be best tbh...
As for the Hover/Stealth tank thing... I loved the Stealth Tanks. They were good for keeping watch on things and scouting around during conflicts, and they made excellent sentries in parts of my territory that were suffering from frequent revolutions since the spawning rebels would almost never actually be able to see them, so they could sit outside a city and not take damage from the revolt or the rebel attacks like the garrisoned troops do. Then when my turn rolls around, the full-health Stealth Tanks mop up a good number of the weakened rebels.
The 'speedy' tanks were always great for pillaging missions and I'd often have a handful of them on auto-pillage to cause havoc along with some helicopters to distract and annoy while my main stack went around assaulting cities. I'd be very unhappy if Hybrid/Hover/Stealth got removed, so I'd go with weakening the Genetic and Super soldiers a tad. Or boosting the tanks maybe? Not really sure which would be best tbh...
A couple of things I have noticed, after getting to the industrial units for the first time in a while:
- Russian Cossack upgrades to the light tank only, unlike Cavalry it replaces.
- Air units get experience for recon missions, so you can (rather tediously) gain them experience during peace time.
- Russian Cossack upgrades to the light tank only, unlike Cavalry it replaces.
- Air units get experience for recon missions, so you can (rather tediously) gain them experience during peace time.
I'll see what I can do once I get some more time to look at units. Since all the techs are arranged into columns by how difficult it is to research the techs, arranging units by the columns of their techs is a good way to find units that should be available at the same time and then easily compare them. I haven't gotten to the Transhuman Era yet.
I suspect something that might be good is to lower Genetic Soldier/Super Soldier's Strength but add free promotions. Heal seems like an obvious one. I'm not about to get rid of the Transhuman tanks. I really like them, and especially I want to keep the Plasma Armor. I could see reworking parts of the Transhuman Era, but I think Controlled Plasma-Fusion is pretty important. We need to figure out what the niches are for Transhuman Era units.
I can fix the Cossack. I can't do anything about the air recon XP.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Never noticed but I'll have a look at it.
nionios
Prince
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The situation with air recon missions is a bit obscure.I'm not sure about XPs from air recon and it's also supposed to get intercepted but I've not seen any yet.
I suppose that XPs and interceptions for air recon regard missions over enemy territory only.
I suppose that XPs and interceptions for air recon regard missions over enemy territory only.
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45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Looking at the code you get a small amount of experience for recon missions, no matter where. But only if you have Dynamic XP option, and it's just 0.05 xp points. I can live with that. After all, you can only scount in enemy territory if they don't have Flight or using a spy plane. And while performing recon missions on neutral territory, you can discover enemy units. So I think it's ok.
Some initial notes on Transhuman Era units:
Genetic Soldier is too strong for where it shows up. It has a Strength of 140 and most defensive units aren't that strong yet. Bolter Infantry is 110 and ACV is 100. Genetic Soldier is also cheaper than even Bolter Infantry, although some of its use is actually mitigated by its invisibility.
Cyborg is very underpowered. By the time it appears, it's a 95 competing against 150+ offensive units. I don't think those units are going to do very much.
Plasma Armor and Stealth Armor have bonuses against Tracked Units. I'm not sure if these are necessary. It makes Plasma Armor one of the best counters to Dreadnought Armor.
Also, most Tanks have attack bonuses against Machine Gun and specifically Machine Gun. These stop becoming necessary as Minigun starts to die out. Minigun is a very good counter unit for Gunpowder units, having Strength 90 against them and the most powerful Gunpowder unit being Automatons at 70. In the Transhuman Era, Minigun upgrades to Bolter Infantry. At that point, I don't think a specific bonus is justified. Even a Minigun bonus isn't necessary; Hybrid Tank is 95, and Modern Armor is 105, vs. Minigun only having Strength 60.
Genetic Soldier is too strong for where it shows up. It has a Strength of 140 and most defensive units aren't that strong yet. Bolter Infantry is 110 and ACV is 100. Genetic Soldier is also cheaper than even Bolter Infantry, although some of its use is actually mitigated by its invisibility.
Cyborg is very underpowered. By the time it appears, it's a 95 competing against 150+ offensive units. I don't think those units are going to do very much.
Plasma Armor and Stealth Armor have bonuses against Tracked Units. I'm not sure if these are necessary. It makes Plasma Armor one of the best counters to Dreadnought Armor.
Also, most Tanks have attack bonuses against Machine Gun and specifically Machine Gun. These stop becoming necessary as Minigun starts to die out. Minigun is a very good counter unit for Gunpowder units, having Strength 90 against them and the most powerful Gunpowder unit being Automatons at 70. In the Transhuman Era, Minigun upgrades to Bolter Infantry. At that point, I don't think a specific bonus is justified. Even a Minigun bonus isn't necessary; Hybrid Tank is 95, and Modern Armor is 105, vs. Minigun only having Strength 60.
nionios
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2013
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- 459
Thanks 45...
,that's clear now.
My personal belief is that the units segment of the game still has room for modifications and fixes.
For example bomber units get the Fighter Engagement mission which means they can attack other aircraft on air or on the ground.Anti air warfare for bomber units is totally unrealistic, especially for modern bombers such as strategic and stealth although WWII bombers did have some anti air capability.Moreover bombers attacking helicopters doesn't sound very reasonable.
,that's clear now.My personal belief is that the units segment of the game still has room for modifications and fixes.
For example bomber units get the Fighter Engagement mission which means they can attack other aircraft on air or on the ground.Anti air warfare for bomber units is totally unrealistic, especially for modern bombers such as strategic and stealth although WWII bombers did have some anti air capability.Moreover bombers attacking helicopters doesn't sound very reasonable.
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I can take Fighter Engagement off of the Early Bomber and the Stealth Bomber. I agree they don't need it. (The Early Bomber was originally an IL-2 fighter/bomber, so it made a little sense there, but I repurposed the unit.) If you see that ability on another bomber, then something else is going wrong because controlling Fighter Engagement should be done by the XML tags.
Playing latest revision from SVN i really like new unit cost so far. Especially new worker cost makes them more valueable because you have to decide carefully whether to build one.
Capturing a worker from combat with slavery in the beginning of game is a tremendous boost
My minor concern is that horseman unit is too cheap.
In contrast to 4
spearman with over 90 
it costs only lil over 60 (on Epic gamespeed). I think horseman should be of same price like spearman as it is a very powerful unit early on possibly crushing archers on open field easily.
Capturing a worker from combat with slavery in the beginning of game is a tremendous boost
My minor concern is that horseman unit is too cheap.
In contrast to 4
spearman with over 90 it costs only lil over 60 (on Epic gamespeed). I think horseman should be of same price like spearman as it is a very powerful unit early on possibly crushing archers on open field easily.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
SVN 1054 Strike fighter V's Stealth fighter.
I know you not at Future era, or last 1/3 of Modern era yet, but as a note.
To me, there seems no difference.
the only one is tech
Strike fighter is available at Guided weapons.
Stealth fighter is available at Stealth. Which needs Composites and runs directly off of Guided weapons.
they are BOTH still available as a build once you have Stealth, but the stealth fighter is;
Stronger,
Longer range on base,
causes more destruction on base figures,
Has a 20% evasion chance v's zero,
Higher level of city defences bombardment.
Both cost the same per turn, and upgrades that is only difference.
Strike fighter will upgrade to a Modern fighter, which is only slightly better than a
Stealth fighter, at Machine learning, and upgrades to a Stealth fighter anyway, if kept separate, they BOTH then upgrade to a Aurora Scramjet at Sky roads.
Modern fighter has a VERY short life, only ever so slightly better then a Stealth fighter, which by then would have combat improvements/promotions.
To me, it seems again, units for units sake, no real diversity.
I'd would suggest, removal of both the strike fighter and the modern fighter, as they merge again into the Aurora Scramjet.
If they are to be kept, I can't see why, but if. Then they should have a separate line of upgrades, merging at the Orbital fighter.
I know you not at Future era, or last 1/3 of Modern era yet, but as a note.
To me, there seems no difference.
the only one is tech
Strike fighter is available at Guided weapons.
Stealth fighter is available at Stealth. Which needs Composites and runs directly off of Guided weapons.
they are BOTH still available as a build once you have Stealth, but the stealth fighter is;
Stronger,
Longer range on base,
causes more destruction on base figures,
Has a 20% evasion chance v's zero,
Higher level of city defences bombardment.
Both cost the same per turn, and upgrades that is only difference.
Strike fighter will upgrade to a Modern fighter, which is only slightly better than a
Stealth fighter, at Machine learning, and upgrades to a Stealth fighter anyway, if kept separate, they BOTH then upgrade to a Aurora Scramjet at Sky roads.
Modern fighter has a VERY short life, only ever so slightly better then a Stealth fighter, which by then would have combat improvements/promotions.
To me, it seems again, units for units sake, no real diversity.
I'd would suggest, removal of both the strike fighter and the modern fighter, as they merge again into the Aurora Scramjet.
If they are to be kept, I can't see why, but if. Then they should have a separate line of upgrades, merging at the Orbital fighter.
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