Vokarya's Workshop: Units

[Vokarya]

I'm going to agree with this. I think we have too many Modern Era air units. We have 5 modern era fighters (Early Jet, Jet Fighter, Strike Fighter, Modern Fighter, Stealth Fighter) and 5 modern era bombers (Bomber, Strategic Bomber, A-10, Stealth Bomber, Drone Bombers). I would say 3 units of a given type in one era is enough (like Arquebusier/Musketman/Rifleman was before Rifling moved to the Industrial Era) but I'm wondering if even that is too much.

I think we should consider cutting out the Early Jet and the Modern Fighter. I'd like to keep the Jet Fighter as the fighter for the early Modern and the Strike Fighter for the late Modern. The Stealth Fighter can then be kind of a wildcard unit. I don't think the A-10 serves much of a purpose either. It's supposed to be an anti-tank air unit, but between air combat limits and collateral damage limits, I don't think it is very effective. Plus, I think having so many air units is contributing to trick count bloat, especially on Robotics, Composites, and Guided Weapons.

 

[<Nexus>]

Sounds good. Try 3/era and see how it works. You can cut more later if needed.

Drone Bombers? Would you cut it or move to the TH era? I'd prefer the second as the name/concept sound good enough (to me) to keep it.

 

[GreedyManul]

Why not shunt the Stealth Fighter into the Secret Army Base package alongside the Blackbird? It fits in there thematically, plus the added effort of consctructing it means it can get a slightly bigger buff.

Though while nitpicky, the F-117 was a ground-attack plane instead of a proper fighter (if they bothered to do proper designation, it'd be called the A-117). Also, Drone Bombers (and a possible Drone Fighters unit) would make for a good Unmanned Warfare civic unit.

 

[<Nexus>]

Also, Drone Bombers (and a possible Drone Fighters unit) would make for a good Unmanned Warfare civic unit.

Agree and disagree: Unmanned Warfare relies heavily on drones so drones should get some boost but restricting them solely to UW... No, please, no.

 

[Vokarya]

I don't want to limit drones to Unmanned Warfare. I want to keep them where they are, because they are at the very tail end of the Modern Era and both eliminating the Modern Fighter and moving the Drone Bombers would leave Machine Learning a little bare.

I did notice that removing the air units that I want to remove doesn't hit the techs that could really afford to take a trick hit: Robotics (6 tricks), Composites (6.5 tricks), and Guided Weapons (8 tricks). The ones that get hit are Jet Propulsion (5 tricks going to 4), Modern Warfare (5.5 tricks going to 4.5), and Machine Learning (also 5.5 tricks going to 4.5). Robotics is required in addition to Stealth for both the Stealth Fighter and Stealth Bomber, but I'm reluctant to cut it. I want to keep the Strike Fighter where it is at Composites/Guided Weapons. 4-5 tricks is the "sweet spot" for me, so going down but staying in that range doesn't bother me.

We might have to look at scaling up some fighters and scaling down bombers a little just to make sure we have an adequate fighter counter available for each bomber.

 

[Vokarya]

I did some calculating on what would be better strength numbers for air units. Here's what I think we should do. Right now, Stealth Fighter is still up in the air as to what to do with it; it's currently the only Modern Era air unit that has an edge on the Stealth Bomber, not to mention the Drone Bombers. If we limit Stealth Fighter, we would probably have to increase Strike Fighter, Jet Fighter, and Strategic Bomber. (Strike Fighter would go up to counter Stealth Bomber/Drone Bomber; Strategic Bomber would go up so it isn't annihilated by Strike Fighter; Jet Fighter goes up to be a decent counter to Strategic Bomber).

• Airship increased to 15.
• Fighter increased to 32.
• Early Bomber decreased to 35.
• Bomber decreased to 45.
• Strategic Bomber decreased to 65.
• Drone Bombers decreased to 125.
• Aurora Scramjet decreased to 125.

If you really want, I can provide the details. I'm working out a "curve theory" based on the jump points from the Combat Explained article.

 

[nionios]

I agree that some fighters should be removed,there're too many.
The Stealth Fighter is a confusing unit because it's based on real life F-117 which isn't a fighter of course (It's a joke it can perform interceptions in the game).Thegreekweegee also correctly stated that.
For bombers category I'd say about removing A-10 only.
I'm talking about games with no Transhman era.

 

[GreedyManul]

If you really want, I can provide the details. I'm working out a "curve theory" based on the jump points from the Combat Explained article.

Go for it, tbh.

 

[aggri1]

Agree with removing some air units.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

To tell the truth I like most air units where they are. The only unnecessary ones are IMO A10 and F117, although the latter might be produced like Sr71 in a Secret Army Base, which would make it more useful. I see no need to cut the others, AI never had a problem in building those different units.

 

[Vokarya]

The problem that I have with the Early Jet is that Jet Propulsion and Supersonic Flight are just too close together. Once you get to Jet Propulsion, there is only one prerequisite tech (Computers) missing from Supersonic Flight. So when the techs are that close, there isn't much time to build Early Jets before Jet Fighters come available. I'm willing to move the Jet Fighter back to Jet Propulsion to stagger the air units rather than have them be paired up all the time. Moving the Jet Fighter back opens up a little space between the Jet Fighter and the Strike Fighter.

Likewise, you have to get to Modern level 6 to get the Strike Fighter, and the Modern Era is only 8 levels deep, which is where the Modern Fighter is currently located.

If we remove the Early Jet, A-10, and Modern Fighter, that is still 2 fighter units (Jet Fighter and Strike Fighter) and 4 bomber units (Bomber, Strategic Bomber, Stealth Bomber, and Drone Bombers) for just the Modern Era, not counting any unusual units like the SR-71 or Stealth Fighter. I think that's plenty of air units.

 

[Vokarya]

As far as the Stealth Fighter goes, I think the problem is that it's very difficult to separate ground-attack aircraft and bombers. The only differences between fighters and bombers that I can see are that fighters have an intercept chance, while bombers deal collateral damage and are better at bombing. Fighters have a limited bombing capacity (and this is a holdover from BTS). So there isn't really anything that leads to a ground-attack aircraft being different enough to split off into a third category; if you give it an intercept chance, then it's a fighter, but if you don't, then it's a worse bomber. I can see making the Stealth Fighter into a "bomber-class" unit, but I'd have to look at the stats in detail.

 

[Vokarya]

Here is another alternate thought I had: what if we used the current Aurora Scramjet unit as a BOMBER, not a fighter, and use the current Modern Fighter as an early Transhuman Era fighter? That would give us 2 fighters ("New Fighter" and Orbital Fighter) and 2 bombers (Scramjet and Orbital Bomber) for the Transhuman Era. Orbital Flight is at about the halfway point of the Transhuman Era, so if this new fighter was at a first-column tech -- Metamaterials could easily use the new trick -- that would be sufficient space.

 

[<Nexus>]

Here is another alternate thought I had: what if we used the current Aurora Scramjet unit as a BOMBER, not a fighter, and use the current Modern Fighter as an early Transhuman Era fighter? That would give us 2 fighters ("New Fighter" and Orbital Fighter) and 2 bombers (Scramjet and Orbital Bomber) for the Transhuman Era. Orbital Flight is at about the halfway point of the Transhuman Era, so if this new fighter was at a first-column tech -- Metamaterials could easily use the new trick -- that would be sufficient space.

Aurora was a rumored mid-1980s American reconnaissance aircraft. There is no substantial evidence that it was ever built or flown and it has been termed a myth.

The U.S. government has consistently denied such an aircraft was ever built. Aviation and space reference site Aerospaceweb.org concluded, "The evidence supporting the Aurora is circumstantial or pure conjecture, there is little reason to contradict the government's position." Former Skunk Works director, Ben Rich, confirmed that "Aurora" was simply a myth in "Skunk Works," a book detailing his days as the director. Mr. Rich wrote that a young colonel working in the Pentagon arbitrarily assigned the name "Aurora" to the funding for the B-2 bomber design competition and somehow the name was leaked to the media.

Well... The above tells me that it never existed so you can make anything of it. Go for it


One more idea about Airship:
Don't you think it would be better as a "helicopter" unit instead of a city locked aircraft?

 

[nionios]

As far as the Stealth Fighter goes, I think the problem is that it's very difficult to separate ground-attack aircraft and bombers. The only differences between fighters and bombers that I can see are that fighters have an intercept chance, while bombers deal collateral damage and are better at bombing. Fighters have a limited bombing capacity (and this is a holdover from BTS). So there isn't really anything that leads to a ground-attack aircraft being different enough to split off into a third category; if you give it an intercept chance, then it's a fighter, but if you don't, then it's a worse bomber. I can see making the Stealth Fighter into a "bomber-class" unit, but I'd have to look at the stats in detail.

That's exactly I've thought about.Let's make Stealth Fighter a bomber-class unit(without interception chance of course) and increase its bonus against cities(it has already got city bonus).In that way it's considered as precision strike* unit and not so worse than Stealth Bomber because the latter has no bonus against cities.
*Is it possible to make it destroy tile improvements or buildings in cities with greater probability?

 

[Vokarya]

One more idea about Airship:
Don't you think it would be better as a "helicopter" unit instead of a city locked aircraft?

No, but I think we should give Airship a bomb rate. These are WWI era airships, so they should be usable for bombing, but below bombers.

 

[<Nexus>]

No, but I think we should give Airship a bomb rate. These are WWI era airships, so they should be usable for bombing, but below bombers.

I remember that in the past it had greater range than its upgrade. I don't know if it is fixed by now but if not than IMO it should be taken care of too.

 

[Vokarya]

I remember that in the past it had greater range than its upgrade. I don't know if it is fixed by now but if not than IMO it should be taken care of too.

It hasn't. Airship and Bomber are range 8, but the Early Bomber in between is only range 6. I'll lower Airship to range 6 and keep the rest.

 

[Vokarya]

Since we're keeping Stealth Fighter as a unit, even if it has radically changed stats, it probably should have a different name so that no one thinks of it as a fighter. I think we should rename the Stealth Fighter to Nighthawk. Numerical designations for units don't work for me, except as flavor names, but the Nighthawk name works. Also, the SR71 should be Blackbird. I think it actually conveys that these are both secret units from the Secret Army Base.

We also need a better name for the Modern Fighter. I'm going to preemptively say that anything ending in -generation Fighter is not going to work. It just screams "We have nothing better to use." If we can't find anything else, I'm probably going with Interceptor. It's fairly concise and still conveys the unit's primary purpose.

 

[Vokarya]

I started looking at air combat mechanics in a little more detail, and the assumptions I was making about air-vs-air combat were totally wrong, especially that intercept % plays a role in overall combat results. I'm going to have to go back and look deeper into this to find appropriate unit strengths for air units.