Vokarya's Workshop: Units

I think combining, splitting, splitting, combining all the tanks lines looks weird and doesn't make a lot of sense. Axe either stealth or hover or make a hover stealth tank... I feel like you are just using these units because they are already there not because the mod really needs both.

If I had to pick one, I'd keep the Stealth Tank I guess. I like having both, but I really feel they should both be unique enough to keep around - if both are going to remain side-by-side.

I do really like the idea of having multiple types of tank in the same era, fulfilling different roles or having different strengths/weaknesses, but if the only thing separating them is a difference in power and a different model but they're both in the same era? I'm not as sure.

I like the idea of a Hover Tank and a Stealth Tank though. Maybe one has Anti-Air capability or is more resistant to such attacks...
 
I don't want to get rid of any units as long as I think they have a niche. I especially don't want to get rid of any Transhuman Era units because I feel that era is starved for content. We have 9 Transhuman Era techs that are one-trick-only, and 8 more that are 1.5. Until those are fleshed out, I am not going to get rid of anything -- move to another tech possibly, but not remove.
 
I like the 3 different tanks, I think they are unique enough to keep them all.

I could even think 2 more very lategame tanks:

Tzunami tank (from Redalert3)
-upgrade of Hover tank
-truly amphibious: can enter coast and attack ships too

Arclite siege tank (from Starcraft)
-upgrade combination of Plasma tank and NLOS cannon


I don't know if these were good ideas, just brainstorming.
 
Is it logical that spies would upgrade to agents?

Yes, I guess we should change it. I don't know why it's not possible now, probably a leftover from some very old version. If Vokarya doesn't have different ideas, I'll change it in next revision.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13155539 said:
Yes, I guess we should change it. I don't know why it's not possible now, probably a leftover from some very old version. If Vokarya doesn't have different ideas, I'll change it in next revision.

I'm all for it. I believe that there was a problem not with the Spy - Agent upgrade, but with allowing Agents to upgrade to Special Agent and Top Secret Agent, because those are National Units and auto-upgrade messes with them.
 
I'm all for it. I believe that there was a problem not with the Spy - Agent upgrade, but with allowing Agents to upgrade to Special Agent and Top Secret Agent, because those are National Units and auto-upgrade messes with them.

Yes, I also think so. Ok, I'll include it in the next update.
 
Hi, just upgraded to Rev686. A few thoughts on the Cavalry changes...

1) Looking at the unit tree, it's not at all clear to me as to why there are two exclusive horse-based cavalry 'lines'? (Not considering the various horses up in the infantry section). I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to upgrade a Heavy Horseman into e.g. a Heavy Cavalry, or why I can't upgrade any pre-gunpowder horse-based unit into either a Light or Heavy Cavalry.
2) Having 'lines' along which units progress is all very well, but I don't think we should have unit 'lines' simply for their own sake.
3) The Heavy Cavalry upgrades to Light Cavalry through the Lancer.
4) Horse archers and heavy horsemen both become obsolete and un-buildable when their successors are available, but the successors are not necessarily better in all respects (e.g. the successors both have lower withdraw chances). Therefore one might wish to build the older units despite their lower strengths.
5) There is a remarkable number of horse-based units now.

So I have a few questions.
A) Why do horses upgrade to tanks? Just so that a 'line' continues? (This has always been an annoyance of mine).
B) What is the basis for the seemingly arbitrary split of the horse-based cavalry into the two exclusive 'lines'?
C) Why do we need so very many almost identical units? I've seen elsewhere that AND tries specifically NOT to include everything (C2C-style), and that's one of the things I like about it, but these recent changes to the cavalry units seem somewhat counter to that ethos.

Please consider this constructive criticism: I very much enjoy this mod' and thank the AND team for all the great work!

Cheers, A.
 
The reason for the various Mounted units is that prior to my work, we had two or three different Mounted units available up to the end of the Medieval Era: Chariot/Horseman, Horse Archer/Light Cavalry (renamed Heavy Horseman), and Heavy Cavalry/Knight/Mailed Knight, but only Cuirassier in the Renaissance and Cavalry in the Industrial. So I wanted a few more units to offer some more variety of mounted units in the later eras. It is a Civ4 principle that every unit upgrades, and historically, cavalry switched to vehicles once they became established and horses were obsolete.

Heavy Cavalry has an unfortunate name that I have not yet figured out a better replacement for yet. The original Light Cavalry (now Heavy Horseman) and the current Heavy Cavalry come from the Charlemagne mod as weaker than the Knight, where it does work because there is no regular Cavalry to compare them to. We have regular Cavalry, so we need other names for these units; I think the upgrade paths would make more sense if the names were clearer.

I did consider allowing one era's heavy mounted unit to upgrade to the next era's light mounted, but not the other way around. Otherwise, there is effectively just one long line of mounted units, and I do not want that. I'd like to leave it the way it is for now.

I will look into adding some other ability to the lighter mounted units to differentiate them better from the heavy counterparts. As I see it, the purpose of the heavy mounted units is to combine strong attacking power with movement 2 -- if you want heavier attacking power, switch to elephants. The light mounted units need something else, and I will see what I can do. I'm thinking about more flanking bonuses for light mounted, but I will look at other suggestions (maybe even move 3 for Lancer and Light Cav? They don't have innate Blitz, so they would move faster but not attack more often without a lot of advancement).
 
Heavy Cavalry has an unfortunate name that I have not yet figured out a better replacement for yet. The original Light Cavalry (now Heavy Horseman) and the current Heavy Cavalry come from the Charlemagne mod as weaker than the Knight, where it does work because there is no regular Cavalry to compare them to. We have regular Cavalry, so we need other names for these units; I think the upgrade paths would make more sense if the names were clearer.

OK, I think better names would help. Yep.

I did consider allowing one era's heavy mounted unit to upgrade to the next era's light mounted, but not the other way around. Otherwise, there is effectively just one long line of mounted units, and I do not want that. I'd like to leave it the way it is for now.

Can the units overlap a bit in terms of obsolescence? I think that even within a single 'line' it might be nice to have the older unit remain constructable for a bit longer - particularly as I recently found while playing as the Carthaginians, where that fantastic unique unit which starts with Speed (+1 moves) becomes obsolete even though I still want to build them. I guess the question is, are the upgrade options specified independently from the obsolescence technology? If they are independent (hopefully), then one could still build the older units after their newer replacements are available (and in principle, immediately upgrade them, but we'd just have to make sure that that's not worth doing, economically, which should already be the case with the cost formula being half-the-hammer-difference-plus-20 gold). The older unit could then become un-constructable at some other point further along, when it really is inconceivable that one would build them - e.g. when Cavalry with guns are available.

I will look into adding some other ability to the lighter mounted units to differentiate them better from the heavy counterparts. As I see it, the purpose of the heavy mounted units is to combine strong attacking power with movement 2 -- if you want heavier attacking power, switch to elephants. The light mounted units need something else, and I will see what I can do. I'm thinking about more flanking bonuses for light mounted, but I will look at other suggestions (maybe even move 3 for Lancer and Light Cav? They don't have innate Blitz, so they would move faster but not attack more often without a lot of advancement).

After I thought about this for a while, I came up with the following concepts. What do you think?

1) Strength: Light horse line is weaker than the heavy horse line in terms of the units' base strengths.
2) Withdraw: Light horse line has some significant inherent withdraw chance, which is consistent throughout the line (or increasing). Heavy horse line has no withdraw chance (except perhaps unique units), but they can still get Flanking promotions.
3) Flank attacks: Light horse line consistently has flank attack against archery units (or all infantry?), Heavy line has flank attack against siege units (just for example).
4) Moves: Light line should be faster, but three moves might be too much for a horse unit, so... Not sure.
5) Cost: the Light horse line should be cheaper, and require only the Horse resource. Units of the Heavy horse line should be expensive (hammer-wise), and require some resource such as copper or iron (perhaps only after a certain stage? I can't remember where this line starts...).

I think that a 'line' should be defined by what the units are good at (their abilities: strengths and weaknesses), and be consistent in those abilities. At the moment, my impression is that the two horse lines are quite muddled (e.g. the flank attacks and inherent withdraw chances are all mixed up), and I think that's why it's not clear to me why there are two 'lines'. What I am trying to convey in the above dot points is a consistency along the line, so that abilities don't arbitrarily disappear. When the 'line' is more consistent, there's less chance that the successor unit is not always better in every way than the older unit, reducing the likelihood of being in the situation I described further up, where one wants to build the old unit because the replacement unit is deficient in some regard.

Looking forward to hear your thoughts.

Cheers!
 
Can the units overlap a bit in terms of obsolescence? I think that even within a single 'line' it might be nice to have the older unit remain constructable for a bit longer - particularly as I recently found while playing as the Carthaginians, where that fantastic unique unit which starts with Speed (+1 moves) becomes obsolete even though I still want to build them. I guess the question is, are the upgrade options specified independently from the obsolescence technology? If they are independent (hopefully), then one could still build the older units after their newer replacements are available (and in principle, immediately upgrade them, but we'd just have to make sure that that's not worth doing, economically, which should already be the case with the cost formula being half-the-hammer-difference-plus-20 gold). The older unit could then become un-constructable at some other point further along, when it really is inconceivable that one would build them - e.g. when Cavalry with guns are available.

Upgrades are completely separate. Most units actually do not technically obsolete; they are simply replaced. If a situation happens where you cannot build the newer unit, the older unit reappears. A unit disappears from the build list when all of its upgrades are available. With UU's, what we could do is have them upgrade to the next unit down the line - that way, you could continue to build them for a while. I am playing a current game as Benin, and its UU is a Knight that starts with Flanking I and Shock I. I wouldn't mind being able to build those until Cavalry show up, but I would have to look into it more.

I think that a 'line' should be defined by what the units are good at (their abilities: strengths and weaknesses), and be consistent in those abilities. At the moment, my impression is that the two horse lines are quite muddled (e.g. the flank attacks and inherent withdraw chances are all mixed up), and I think that's why it's not clear to me why there are two 'lines'. What I am trying to convey in the above dot points is a consistency along the line, so that abilities don't arbitrarily disappear. When the 'line' is more consistent, there's less chance that the successor unit is not always better in every way than the older unit, reducing the likelihood of being in the situation I described further up, where one wants to build the old unit because the replacement unit is deficient in some regard.

Looking forward to hear your thoughts.

Cheers!

I agree the horse lines are muddled right now. I am currently working on cleaning up the art defines files -- there seem to be some unused artworks in the files, and I think between what I recently added and the additions from the Megapack, the mod is getting very strained and a little unstable, so pruning that back would be a help. Once I get that done, I will take another look at the horse lines and see what we can do about cleaning them up more. I will probably have to create a few tables for posting so that we can see what all of the horse units currently look like.
 
Light cavalry
I think a movement of 3 would be too high. I could rather think of a "no terrain penalty".

That's very workable. Most of the units with Ignore Terrain Movement Cost are either scouts, high-tech units (helicopters, advanced tanks, mechs), or powered ships (which just get to ignore the 2-cost for moving through Ocean squares). There are some UU's with this ability, but they are mostly heavy cavalry, which normally wouldn't get the bonus.
 
Light cavalry
I think a movement of 3 would be too high. I could rather think of a "no terrain penalty".

A very similar but slightly lesser bonus would be -1 terrain movement cost. In that case, these units would still be slowed down on peaks and in swamps and so forth. That may be a bit more realistic than zooming across all terrain unhindered.

There is a promotion with this effect: Mobility. However, I think it'd be better that these units got whatever speed bonus they end up getting through an inherent ability, and not via a promotion, because the promotion is kept when the units are upgraded, and in my opinion, that's not desirable if the unit can be upgraded to a different type. I believe that that will be the case eventually right? When they 'turn into' tanks, the light and heavy lines merge at some stage don't they? Then you'd have tanks with Mobility being those which were light horse units, and other tanks which don't have Mobility being those you have newly built and/or upgraded from heavy horses.

So if the -1 terrain movement cost can be an inherent ability, then I think that it would be good for the light horse line. If it can only be given via promotion, then just the inherent ignore terrain movement costs would be preferred. In my opinion only. :-)

?

A.
 
A very similar but slightly lesser bonus would be -1 terrain movement cost. In that case, these units would still be slowed down on peaks and in swamps and so forth. That may be a bit more realistic than zooming across all terrain unhindered.

There is a promotion with this effect: Mobility. However, I think it'd be better that these units got whatever speed bonus they end up getting through an inherent ability, and not via a promotion, because the promotion is kept when the units are upgraded, and in my opinion, that's not desirable if the unit can be upgraded to a different type. I believe that that will be the case eventually right? When they 'turn into' tanks, the light and heavy lines merge at some stage don't they? Then you'd have tanks with Mobility being those which were light horse units, and other tanks which don't have Mobility being those you have newly built and/or upgraded from heavy horses.

So if the -1 terrain movement cost can be an inherent ability, then I think that it would be good for the light horse line. If it can only be given via promotion, then just the inherent ignore terrain movement costs would be preferred. In my opinion only. :-)

?

A.

Errr... Exactly :)
Just you wrote it with the right words :lol:
 
Is it intentional that Warriors can upgrade to Axemen and Archers, but not to LightSwordsmen? IMHO a warrior is much closer to swords than bows. (Altough I wouldn't like the archer line removed from warrior.)
 
Probably, considering "Warrior" is kind of a blanket name; also, besides, by the time you can make Light Swordsmen, you should AT LEAST be able to upgrade/make archers.
 
Is it intentional that Warriors can upgrade to Axemen and Archers, but not to LightSwordsmen? IMHO a warrior is much closer to swords than bows. (Altough I wouldn't like the archer line removed from warrior.)

Warrior gets to upgrade to Archer or Spearman, not Axeman. I think it is intentional, although I'm thinking about both allowing Warrior to upgrade to Axeman and doing a ForceObsolete once Archer is available. If I remember upgrading correctly, you can build a unit up until all of its upgrades are available to build, but you need copper/iron/obsidian to build Spearman, so it's possible that Warrior can stick around until you reach Musketman (which is the first unit in Spearman's upgrade chain that can be built without resources).
 
A very similar but slightly lesser bonus would be -1 terrain movement cost. In that case, these units would still be slowed down on peaks and in swamps and so forth. That may be a bit more realistic than zooming across all terrain unhindered.

There is a promotion with this effect: Mobility. However, I think it'd be better that these units got whatever speed bonus they end up getting through an inherent ability, and not via a promotion, because the promotion is kept when the units are upgraded, and in my opinion, that's not desirable if the unit can be upgraded to a different type. I believe that that will be the case eventually right? When they 'turn into' tanks, the light and heavy lines merge at some stage don't they? Then you'd have tanks with Mobility being those which were light horse units, and other tanks which don't have Mobility being those you have newly built and/or upgraded from heavy horses.

So if the -1 terrain movement cost can be an inherent ability, then I think that it would be good for the light horse line. If it can only be given via promotion, then just the inherent ignore terrain movement costs would be preferred. In my opinion only. :-)

That's a very good idea, but unfortunately the XML doesn't support it. Here is actually what happens: Units can get <bFlatMovementCost> (ignore all bonuses and penalties to movement, so units move the same even over roads) and <bIgnoreTerrainCost> (ignore just movement costs from terrain). Promotions can give <iMoveDiscountChange>, which reduces penalties by 1 (or more, but that's not done).

With a speed of 2 (and only being able to get higher with Morale and Speed, which aren't that common), I don't think it will be that breaking to let light cavalry move across all terrain unhindered.
 
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