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Vokarya's Workshop: Wonders

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by Vokarya, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    Agree.
    The name of Venetian Arsena sounds as a WW, but the bonus is just a NW.
    I agree, that +Xp is not a very interesting thing.
    It need something reeeeeally uniqe.
    How about a free ship every X turns (like the crusade)? It could be even a unique unit IMO.
     
  2. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I think with +300% production, you would be able to get all the ships you'd ever want or need just from that. I want to try it out just to see how good it actually is.
     
  3. Spirictum

    Spirictum Immortal

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    Nothing related to the Arsenal, but as my doubt came from a National Wonder, I think here is the place to ask.

    I'm explaining some techs and their benefits in my Iroquois story on S&T forum and I stumbled upon something I didn't understand:

    Victualler's Guild Hall.

    It says it's a national wonder, and obviously it's related to guilds, and it's needed for Baker Master Guild HQ.

    When I go to Victualler's Guild Hall on Civilopedia, it goes to the National Wonder part but it just doesn't appear on the list. I wonder if this is because I'm running Realistic/Dynamic Corps or something else. The info on the right displays as normal, but on the National Wonder list on the left there is no Victualler's Guild Hall.

    But anyways, I can't build it. It's a National Wonder and I can't build it. Is it because I'm running the Realistic/Dynamic corps?
    And if corps just get found when 3 or more civs can actually "build" the HQs, and Baker's HQ needs Victualler's Guild Hall will it ever get founded? Or this restriction is removed from this type of game? Or I may only build Victualler's under a civic that lets me build corp/guild related stuff?

    I'm confused, sorry if this is so confusing.
     
  4. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Chieftain

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    with Realistic corporations, you can't build the "H.Q's" of said corporations or Guilds. Period.

    They are HQ'd in the founding city, but you can't build the add on wonders as you could possibly lose the HQ due to some economic miss-management.

    Also they are tradable, so you can't trade the wonder once its built. Like Holy cities with inquisitions, the building is destroyed, and the holy city will be relocated, min of 2 cities with religion in another civ, for a new Religious wonder to be built. All monies are confiscated to the state as well.
     
  5. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    If you have Realistic Corporations turned on, the National Wonder Guild Halls (Crafts, Servants, Victuallers) cannot be built. The World Wonder guilds can found themselves if you have the right techs. The only checks seem to be technologies, number of players, and number of corporations already founded by a particular player.
     
  6. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    There are 2 wonders I think could be adjusted a bit:


    Shwedagon Paya
    Its effect is to allow all religion civics, which was acceptable in BtS, but AND has greatly extanded the techtree and revorked the civics. S.P. is just ruining it in its present form so I suggest removing the >enable Atheism< and maybe the >enable Secular< too.


    King Richar's Crusade
    I don't know what are your experience but I haven't seen it have any affect on my games. It is a cool wonder that doesn't have its chance in the game :sad:
    I think it would be much better to change it from christian-religion-only to intolerant-civic-only. It could be even changed from WorldWonder to NationalWonder.

    What do you think?
     
  7. aggri1

    aggri1 Chieftain

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    Regarding the King Richard's Crusade Wonder: I quite like it. Once I saw how good those Crusaders were, I pretty much always try to get it, which usually means being the first and only Civ' in Christianity. Doesn't make me popular... But, those Crusaders are great, with their ability to use enemy roads at that early stage of the game.

    Might be a shame if the Wonder required Intolerant, since I never like to use that, but ah well...
     
  8. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Chieftain

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    Just wonder...
    I don't think we're going to change that. I like those wonders as they are and definetely Crusaders are useful.
     
  9. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    Yes, these are 2 more issues worth to mention:

    Crusader unit is imo umbalanced. Too hard to get and too poverful to its era.

    Intolerant is not a very useful civic, compared to StateRelgion or FreeReligion. Unless you are going for a religios victory it is much more worthy to run a multy-religious empire for the many bonus you can collect:
    - :health: :science: :culture: bonus from monasteries, and sometimes some special bonus (Hellenic Gymnesia +military production + free Pancration; Taoist Monastery free Martial Arts)
    - :culture: from temples; and having enough temples you can build cathedrals for their +50% culture

    And don't forget the Kong Miao's free Morale promotion. You don't have to convert to confucianism, just have to fund it.
    So it is an other question: When and why did Kong Miao recieve the ability of the free Moral promotion? In BtS it doesn't have it. I know we are all used to it, but is it necessary?
     
  10. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I agree; I don't think we need to adjust either of them.

    A Wonder that unlocks all civics of a particular type is all-or-nothing; you cannot exclude a particular civic. I have at least one idea for a new civic that has to be very carefully balanced with Wonders in mind so that it isn't too powerful too fast.

    I'm also fine with King Richard's Crusade being the single Christian-only wonder. One Wonder per religion is fine (although I have had a few thoughts about making Alhambra a religion-neutral wonder and giving Islam something else), but more than that is going too far, as I think it violates the spirit of competition that is essential for World Wonders. Crusaders also lose a lot of power once the Renaissance starts, and I find that they are often not as good as Heavy Swordsmen that are getting lots of XP, since Crusaders don't start with any XP.

    I do think that Kong Miao is a little bit too powerful with both Shrine bonuses and Morale promotion. Morale is a gigantic promotion, and it seems out of place on Kong Miao.
     
  11. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I've been working on a few National Wonders to fill out some under-utilized technologies. One that I want to introduce is the Federal Reserve. This National Wonder becomes available with Applied Economics. This is a gameplay fudge, as the historical Federal Reserve was founded in 1913 while the Applied Economics tech more properly represents the Keynesian school of economics of the late 1930's, but it's a good fit and it should allow moving the Great Merchant from Applied Economics to Conglomerates, which is a one-trick-tech at this point.

    I have two effects in mind for the Federal Reserve. One is a free Bank in every city. This will mostly help new cities, as Banks have been available for a long time. So there needs to be a second effect to make the Federal Reserve worth building for a mature civilization. I was thinking that a unique second effect would be something to do with inflation. As far as I can tell, the only way to adjust inflation without directly affecting the DLL (which I cannot do) is to use an Event. There isn't even a Python function that directly changes inflation rates. The problem with using Events is that if No Events is turned on, it doesn't work. I can make an event trigger with Python, but if No Events is on, it doesn't have any actual effect. I really don't know why, but that's what testing showed. The best I think I can do is to refund some of the gold lost to inflation; it's kind of a workaround and it won't show up on the Financial Advisor screens.

    Does anyone have a better idea that might fit? I definitely want to stay away from basic +X gold or +X% gold in all cities, as it's been done with other things and isn't all that inspiring.
     
  12. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Chieftain

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    Just wonder...
    I'm not sure how inflation works and I'm not even sure it works with events.
     
  13. Spirictum

    Spirictum Immortal

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    So who has made so many aspects of the game handle with Inflation? There is + or - % of Inflation in several civics, by the text it seems hurrying with gold generates Inflation and there are civics which increase or reduce the amount of inflation by hurrying with gold.

    If you point me in the right direction I may try to discover this in the code, but I have no idea where to look.

    What my game has taught me is that running 2 civics inflation related (Monarchy and Slavery) resulted in no Inflation gain from my Empire (my inflation is 0, and I'm on Renaissance). Seeing that Monarchy gives +5% Inflation and Slavery gives -10% Inflation, then I think with a result of -5% inflation my inflation never grows (and I don't have a civic which let me hurry with gold, so I didn't explore this option yet)
     
  14. Noyyau

    Noyyau Privateer Captain

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    In Civ 3 there was the Wall Street Small (i.e. National) Wonder, with the effect "Earns 5% interest on treasury each turn (maximum of 50)", meaning that one could have a maximum of +50:gold: per turn with a large enough treasury.

    I'd see this kind of effect better for the Federal Reserve, rather than a generic "free building in every city". Balancing the bonus for mapsize/gamespeed is gonna be tricky I suppose.

    Also as a requirement there could be X banks already built (scaled for mapsize as usual).
     
  15. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    Should we really care for the events issue? IIRC there are already several wonders using events: Abu Simbel; Crusade; Blarney Castle; Reistag. Or am I mistaken?

    I like Noyyau's idea.
     
  16. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    Not too many Wonders actually use Events; Blarney (for the bonuses with other leaders, not the XP bonus to Espionage) and Woodstock are the main two. There are also minor events that can trigger with Stonehenge and Las Vegas Strip. Abu Simbel, King Richard's Crusade, and Reichstag are all done with Python effects.

    Python effects have the issue that they are invisible to the AI, so it can't take into account the same factors that a human player can. I can do the % return on treasury with Python, but I think treasuries might be too big at that point.
     
  17. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I think you're right, and using events to affect inflation doesn't seem to work after all. I think I got confused with inflation zeroing out after a recalculation.
     
  18. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    Leaving aside the Federal Reserve for the moment, I have put together a couple other National Wonders to help out some under-served techs. I'm beginning to like National Wonders on the grounds that they don't increase complexity on the level of a regular building (since a regular building can be built in every city or at least a large chunk of them) and don't need to be super-splashy like World Wonders do.

    The National Redoubt is based on the Alpine fortress that the Nazi leadership was rumored to have at the end of WWII. While it wasn't real, it could have been. I'm trying to help the Guerrilla Warfare tech, which right now only sports the Artillery unit and the Ambush promotion.

    The National Redoubt grants a large bonus to defenses, including against Air and Espionage, although the building defense won't matter very much against tanks. It also provides the Stealth I promotion to units for free, which you normally can't get until the Transhuman Era and the Invisibility tech. I decided against doing Guerrilla or Woodsmen promotions because they are a little bit too limited, and Drill didn't sound right either, so I went with Stealth.
    View attachment 378269 View attachment 378270

    The Deep Core Mine is Rezca's idea, but I think it's a very good one. I'm assigning it to the Nanomining tech, which right now lacks any major tricks of its own and only grants +production and +commerce to certain improvements. The Deep Core Mine is an improved Ironworks. It does not grant a resource the way Ironworks does with Steel, but it has a flat +25% production on its own and then gets +50% production from Geothermal Energy and Methane Ice. So it can make a city into a real powerhouse in the Transhuman Era. I used the Cybernexus artwork from Planetfall for this building. I think it looks appropriately futuristic.
    View attachment 378272 View attachment 378271
     
  19. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    So it's kind of like the Combat promotion event for Cannons, getting a promotion normally unavailable?
    Stealth II requires Invisibility as well right? Units with the free Stealth I promotion won't be able to acquire any further Stealth promotions "before their time" so to speak?

    I like the idea of this wonder. Stealth was always a nifty sounding promotion, but the games were almost always over before it came into play :lol:



    :D

    The thrill of seeing an idea of mine in the mod aside, it's nice to see that Geothermal Energy and Methane Ice have a use beyond simply providing tile bonuses now!

    Neat choice for the model too :goodjob:
     
  20. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    @Vokarya
    :bowdown:
    I welcome any new National Wonder :)
     

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