Vox Populi Congress Proposal Workshop

CS were blocked from clearing camps because they would often issue quests and then body-block you or compete with you for last hits on the camp. So they would issue quests and then waste your time by eliminating their own quest conditions. Pure feelsbad.
Would it be possible to give CS a bonus to defending against Barbarian units, a penalty for attacking Encampments & a bonus to Barbarians for attacking CS units, but a penalty for attacking CS themselves? If balanced well, this should lead to units being eliminated outside of CS & Encampments, but both of those still remaining "safe" from being eliminated by one another?

Alternatively, I'd refer all concerned back to this thread, specifically my post @ #3.
 
Putting together some initial drafts of proposals I'm considering for the next congress. Not necessarily going to push all of these depending on reactions, but want to get them on the table.

RELIGION
God of the Sun:
+3 faith and + 1 happiness (rather than +2 gold) from Granaries. +3 food on farmed resources.
I still argue that without some kind of happiness bonus this pantheon is just doomed to fail, the food it grants is often wasted without happiness, and it doesn't give any "sexy" bonuses like science/culture.

God of the Sea: Remove +2 food from coastal cities.
This pantheon is still just insanely good with a coastal lux monopoly. Its already increase food blessed due to where you want to plant your cities, no reason to pile on more.

Council of Elders: Increase bonus to 25 (from 20).
I think something more fundamental might be needed here, but as a stop gap just giving it a little more juice will help keep it competitive, as right now its pretty lacking.

Inquisition: (added) +100 spy points.
This belief remains weak and honestly fairly unfun, there is just nothing sexy here. However, getting access to an extra (and early spy), opens up more of the fun of the spy game for people that want to focus on that area.

WONDERS
Porcelain Tower:
Remove Great Scientist
I think the PT is one of the strongest late game wonders, the +50% science in your capital is already worth the price of admission, adding a GS on top is just too much science packed into a single wonder.

Summer Palace: +20% production to diplomatic units in ALL cities (as opposed to just this city).
This wonder is ok but could use a slight boost. This will allow you to enjoy the benefit in all of your cities as opposed to just normally the capital (which often has other things to do instead of building diplo units).

UNITS
Musket man:
-1 CS (from 22 to 21). No change to UUs
The musket man is a major increase in ranged damage at this point, which is fine, but it also is tankier compared to the Tercio than the ranged units before it. This makes it a little more vulnerable when used on the front lines.

Skirmisher: +1 RCS (from 8 to 9): +1 RCS to UUs.
Considering the tech, horse, and hammer cost, this unit could at least do the damage of an archer to keep it competitive.

Machine Gun / Bazooka: Remove Naval Targeting Penalty
I have found that once you get into late game ships the ranged units really struggle to do any damage, leading to endless amounts of little plinks which drags out combat. This change will make them a decently creditable threat.

Rocket Missile / Guided Missile: Add in Splash Damage I/Splash Damage II.
Even with the cheaper cost its still hard to justify these units as compared to normal air. However, by adding in splash damage off the bat, it at least provides a niche you normally don't get with aircraft.

GPTI
Town:
+1 culture, +1 culture on Railroad.
People still complain that the town isn't a great GPTI, and if nothing else the idea that it adds no culture (when its lesser cousin the village gets 1/2 culture) just feels like a weird downgrade in a way. So giving equivalent culture seems a reasonable add-on.

SPY Changes
CS Quest (Conduct Intelligence Operations):
Maximum of 1.
Spy missions are too expensive to be expecting more than 1 mission to complete this quest.

Mission XP: NP Cost / 25 (was Cost/50, x2 more XP for a mission).

Sabotage City Production (name change to Sabotage Wonder Production): City cannot build any wonders for 5 turns (UI wise, you could treat this like the Statecraft finisher when you lose a CS and no longer have the needed policies for the wonder, in which case the wonder goes back in the queue greyed out, and you have to choose something else).

Pilfer Religious Relics: Drop cost to 500 NP.

Kidnap Specialists in City: Drop cost to 750 NP, no longer requires the capital.

Target City Defense: Drop cost to 1000 NP. Remove current text, replace with "city is blockaded for 3 turns"

CS Rigging: Cap maximum bonus = Current Diplo Unit Base Strength * Normal Number of Turns to Rig (adjusted for game speed).
Example: On standard speed, rigging speed is 15 turns. If you have envoys (50 influence) than your maximum rigging benefit = 50 * 15 = 750 influence.

Passive Bonuses: Level 4 (10% science) threshold is 1500 (down from 1700). Level 5 threshold to 1800 (down from 2000)

Constabulary: +15 security, +1 security per 2 population. Remove science/culture from identifying spies.

Police Station: +15 security, +1 security per 2 population. Remove capture/kill science and culture bonuses.

Counterspy: (added in regardless of counterspy mode): When you identify a foreign spy, gain 50 science/culture (era scaling). If the spy is captured/kill the bonus is tripled.

Great Leap Forward: +50% Network Points for spies (down from +100%)
 
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I hear completely opposite sides on this. Some say spears/pikes make calvary unusable. others say they are so weak they don't bother buildign them.

For me, I do think spears/pikes are a perfectly fine unit against horses, but they are terrible against any kind of ranged. So in practical terms they don't tend to last long....yes if I have a heavy horse army and you go mass pikes I will get tripped up, but even the inclusion of a reasonable amount of ranged will clear those units out without much issue
Spears/Pikes built by AI do make Human cavalry unusable. Cavalry are weak in defending, Spears/Pikes can severely damage or kill them after their attack.

But Spears/Pikes built by Human are weak especially facing Range units, easily killed when being the focus.

Human players hate losing any units, while killing AI units like a piece of cake, that's the point.
 
Town: +1 culture, +1 culture on Railroad.
People still complain that the town isn't a great GPTI, and if nothing else the idea that it adds no culture (when its lesser cousin the village gets 1/2 culture) just feels like a weird downgrade in a way. So giving equivalent culture seems a reasonable add-on
Not possible with how road/railroad/trade route yields are added. The flat +1 cu is fine, but you either get a potential +4 with RR/TR or nothing.
Summer Palace: +20% production to diplomatic units in ALL cities (as opposed to just this city).
This wonder is ok but could use a slight boost. This will allow you to enjoy the benefit in all of your cities as opposed to just normally the capital (which often has other things to do instead of building diplo units).
This is new code. The modmodders have been begging for a global unit production modifier for years. It would be a hell of a thing if this is the proposal to actually give us one.
 
Constabulary: +15 security, +1 security per 2 population. Remove science/culture from identifying spies.

Police Station: +15 security, +1 security per 2 population. Remove capture/kill science and culture bonuses.
This effectively removes -security from population, which means every city is going to have 40+ security.
Kidnap Specialists in City: Drop cost to 750 NP, no longer requires the capital.
I really don't like this. You're just going to target the most unsecured city to get the same benefit. It's like if Steal Tech is available in other cities.
This is new code. The modmodders have been begging for a global unit production modifier for years. It would be a hell of a thing if this is the proposal to actually give us one.
Would be nice to change the other world wonders too. (Temple of Artemis, Pentagon, Kremlin)
Target City Defense: Drop cost to 1000 NP. Remove current text, replace with "city is blockaded for 3 turns"
I don't think there's a use case here. Are you going to sack a city in 3 turns without killing the surrounding defending units even if it's blockaded?
The mission also has a 70% caught chance (= losing all Surveillance bonuses, and maybe even the spy).
Counterspy: (added in regardless of counterspy mode): When you identify a foreign spy, gain 50 science/culture (era scaling). If the spy is captured/kill the bonus is tripled.
No point on doing "chase foreign spies" with high level spies then, when you don't get extra benefits for doing it. I'd instead propose to buff that counterspy mission to give 150x spy level era scaling on kill though, instead of 50x.
The other two missions are good enough without yields.
CS Rigging: Cap maximum bonus = Current Diplo Unit Base Strength * Normal Number of Turns to Rig (adjusted for game speed).
Example: On standard speed, rigging speed is 15 turns. If you have envoys (50 influence) than your maximum rigging benefit = 50 * 15 = 750 influence.
Diplo unit base strength isn't defined, and is pretty meaningless since you always stack Chancery and other buffs on it.
Either way, it takes an extremely long time to ever reach that cap. It might as well not exist.
Great Leap Forward: +50% Network Points for spies (down from +100%)
This was an oversight. The tenet used to be "Spies steal technologies at double the normal rate" as proposed in (5-56), and was (I think) a duration reduction on the old spy missions.
To not overlap with Covert Action (+10 NP for spies in foreign cities), this should be changed to something like "+100% science siphoned from passive (Surveillance) missions".
Passive Bonuses: Level 4 (10% science) threshold is 1500 (down from 1700). Level 5 threshold to 1800 (down from 2000)
I intended for the passive thresholds to not overlap with the active ones, so there's a slight incentive to "hold the mission for a little bit longer".
Inquisition: (added) +100 spy points.
This belief remains weak and honestly fairly unfun, there is just nothing sexy here. However, getting access to an extra (and early spy), opens up more of the fun of the spy game for people that want to focus on that area.
It's not going to be useful when Inquisitors suck most of the time. You're just turning it into a spy-focused belief instead.
Rocket Missile / Guided Missile: Add in Splash Damage I/Splash Damage II.
Even with the cheaper cost its still hard to justify these units as compared to normal air. However, by adding in splash damage off the bat, it at least provides a niche you normally don't get with aircraft.
I have no idea how air units interact with splash damage.
God of the Sun: +3 faith and + 1 happiness (rather than +2 gold) from Granaries. +3 food on farmed resources.
I still argue that without some kind of happiness bonus this pantheon is just doomed to fail, the food it grants is often wasted without happiness, and it doesn't give any "sexy" bonuses like science/culture.
Food is useful for working specialists, not for growing. Only Tradition has specialists that early, so this is mainly a Tradition pantheon.
And Tradition doesn't need the early happiness.

The pantheon's problem is having the main bonus on the building instead of the terrain, like the other terrain-based pantheons. This is closer to Ancestor Worship than God of Fire.

What it needs is faith (and maybe some other yields) on farms. Put the excess food on the Granary instead.
Council of Elders: Increase bonus to 25 (from 20).
I think something more fundamental might be needed here, but as a stop gap just giving it a little more juice will help keep it competitive, as right now its pretty lacking.
There's no way we can make this balanced for all map sizes and types. In Standard size Continents this is the worse Founder Belief, while it can easily snowball out of control in Huge Pangaea.
God of the Sea: Remove +2 food from coastal cities.
This pantheon is still just insanely good with a coastal lux monopoly. Its already increase food blessed due to where you want to plant your cities, no reason to pile on more.
We already nerfed this once before. I think it's in a good place really. Fishing isn't a tech you want to go for first most of the time.
Machine Gun / Bazooka: Remove Naval Targeting Penalty
I have found that once you get into late game ships the ranged units really struggle to do any damage, leading to endless amounts of little plinks which drags out combat. This change will make them a decently creditable threat.
You're supposed to utilize Siege units with Field for that. Now that the Field promotion is fixed, they absolutely hurt. Save your Machine Guns for land infantry, and Bazookas for tanks.




I think base NP rate could be higher?
 
This effectively removes -security from population, which means every city is going to have 40+ security.
Which is what happens now at police station, im just smoothing out the curve.
I really don't like this. You're just going to target the most unsecured city to get the same benefit. It's like if Steal Tech is available in other cities.
Which is fine, in fact I would say encouraged. This mission really isn’t all that strong outside of a capital anyway in terms of the negatives, and if you want to stack the positives for big GPP instead of stealing techs be my guest
I don't think there's a use case here. Are you going to sack a city in 3 turns without killing the surrounding defending units even if it's blockaded?
The mission also has a 70% caught chance (= losing all Surveillance bonuses, and maybe even the spy).
Sure, that to me is entirely the point of this mission. If I can easily surround a city I don’t need the mission, it’s purpose is to give me the benefits of a blockade during a siege and allow me to take the city without killing everyone and surrounding it.
No point on doing "chase foreign spies" with high level spies then, when you don't get extra benefits for doing it. I'd instead propose to buff that counterspy mission to give 150x spy level era scaling on kill though, instead of 50x.
The other two missions are good enough without yields.
I’m just mimicking what the constabulary and police station do now, just with the counterspy instead.
Diplo unit base strength isn't defined, and is pretty meaningless since you always stack Chancery and other buffs on it.
Either way, it takes an extremely long time to ever reach that cap. It might as well not exist.
Considering I was getting 1300-1500 influence a rig in my last game towards the end…yeah it definately matters.

I intended for the passive thresholds to not overlap with the active ones, so there's a slight incentive to "hold the mission for a little bit longer".

—it’s just not necessary imo. A lot of factors already cause me to hold the mission a little longer. For tech steal for example, I will often complete my current tech because I don’t want the steal to give me something I already half finished.
It's not going to be useful when Inquisitors suck most of the time. You're just turning it into a spy-focused belief instead.
Yep, aka something interesting and useful, rather than something weak and lame.
Food is useful for working specialists, not for growing. Only Tradition has specialists that early, so this is mainly a Tradition pantheon.
And Tradition doesn't need the early happiness.

The pantheon's problem is having the main bonus on the building instead of the terrain, like the other terrain-based pantheons. This is closer to Ancestor Worship than God of Fire.
Serious question, does anyone take sun with tradition? There are just way better pantheons, tutelary, beauty, wisdom, etc….why would I ever take sun over a half dozen other pantheons when playing tradition?
We already nerfed this once before. I think it's in a good place really. Fishing isn't a tech you want to go for first most of the time.
I’ve used sea several times since the nerf and I still say it’s too strong. Hell I’m not even nerfing it’s core strength.
You're supposed to utilize Siege units with Field for that. Now that the Field promotion is fixed, they absolutely hurt. Save your Machine Guns for land infantry, and Bazookas for tanks.
You will still want artillery for the range and splash damage options against ships, it’s just now machine guns won’t be useless.


I think base NP rate could be higher?
I think the base isn’t bad if we have some cheaper missions. But the core rate of tech steals right now is pretty good. I did recommend some xp boosters that will improve the rate a bit faster in the mid game, but also security will be stronger as well.
 
Which is what happens now at police station, im just smoothing out the curve.
Police Station halves the penalty, not removes it.
Sure, that to me is entirely the point of this mission. If I can easily surround a city I don’t need the mission, it’s purpose is to give me the benefits of a blockade during a siege and allow me to take the city without killing everyone and surrounding it.
The current version also helps you get to the city (by pillaging all fortifications), and weaken the city (by not letting it attack). Cities are so bulky that you can't be expecting them to fall in 3 turns unless you surround it with siege units.
Considering I was getting 1300-1500 influence a rig in my last game towards the end…yeah it definately matters.
What can be considered is +20% per consecutive rig instead of +100%.
Serious question, does anyone take sun with tradition? There are just way better pantheons, tutelary, beauty, wisdom, etc….why would I ever take sun over a half dozen other pantheons when playing tradition?
As is? Not really, but the theme is there. It's only some culture or science away from being considered. At that time, for Tradition capital only, food (when not in excess) can turn into culture, and science a bit later.
You will still want artillery for the range and splash damage options against ships, it’s just now machine guns won’t be useless.
Machine Guns are all about dealing with land infantry and skirmishers. The aura doesn't even work on ships.
I did recommend some xp boosters that will improve the rate a bit faster in the mid game,
The XP boost you mentioned won't kick in until late Renaissance, and even then it probably won't level up your first spy?
Or maybe we give slightly more spy points in Renaissance to kick start?
 
There's no way we can make this balanced for all map sizes and types. In Standard size Continents this is the worse Founder Belief, while it can easily snowball out of control in Huge Pangaea.
That's fine, the game is balanced around standard size continents anyway. Other settings are custom. It'd be like trying to balance sea heavy civs for both small archilelago and huge pangaea.
 
Police Station halves the penalty, not removes it.
Lets look at the current and the proposed changes.

Current:
Base: 10 security
Constab: +15 security
Police Station: +10 security, +1 security per 1 pop (this may be the disconnect, police station right now is a full +1 security for every pop).
Security: -2 per pop.

So a 20 pop city right now would have a -30 security (aka 0) at constab, and a 15 security at police station.

Proposed Changes:
Base: 10
Constab: +15, +1 per 2 pop
Police Station: +15, +1 per 2 pop (note that constab + police station is still the same effective +1 security per pop).
Security: -2 per pop.

A 20 pop city would have -5 security (aka 0) at constab, and a 20 security at police station.

The Police station hasn't really changed overall (except for a 5 security bonus). The goal was to let the constab actually pull some weight....though it looks like high pop cities at constab are still going to have 0 security even with this change. (the cutoff is right around 17 pop for constab. Below 17 the city would have some security barring other TR/unhappiness penalties, above 17 it will be at 0)
The current version also helps you get to the city (by pillaging all fortifications), and weaken the city (by not letting it attack). Cities are so bulky that you can't be expecting them to fall in 3 turns unless you surround it with siege units.
even if the city doesn't fall in 3 turns, you get a massive combat boost during those 3 turns to a blockaded city. Of course that said, I certainly do take out cities in 3 turns by later mid game. Lets also remember I have made this mission cheaper by 33%, so its much easier to setup and align compared to now.

If you want to keep in the loss of ranged attack that's fine. My biggest issue is the ability to take out citadels. That is simply not balancable against tall cities. Citadels are too critical for tall civs, if you can just take them down when you invade, tall civs CANNOT hold.
What can be considered is +20% per consecutive rig instead of +100%.
I am fine with more changes if someone wants to put in the math to figure out the right formula. I offered the cap as a quick fix of the biggest abuses, but agree a formula change may be best here.
As is? Not really, but the theme is there. It's only some culture or science away from being considered. At that time, for Tradition capital only, food (when not in excess) can turn into culture, and science a bit later.
Sounds like we are in agreement that Sun is a bad pantheon, we just don't agree on the fix.
Machine Guns are all about dealing with land infantry and skirmishers. The aura doesn't even work on ships.
I'm simply tired of having large navies around and suddenly all my upgraded ranged units just sit there and plink for 10 damage (or 7 or even 5) at a time. I agree that siege should be more optimal, but we have talked about late game tediums and this is a big one for me.
The XP boost you mentioned won't kick in until late Renaissance, and even then it probably won't level up your first spy?
Right now I'm getting ~25 NP on average (factoring in some tech advancement bonuses and the like). Current Formula that's 1.5 xp per turn (67 turns to level), new formula would be 2 xp per turn (50 turns), if NP are being spent consistently. It takes 40 turns to get to 1000 NP at that rate, so the spy should level pretty shortly after that, or would definitely level after a 1500 NP mission. Is that fast enough?

If we did want to boost spy power, we could go from 20 base to 25 base (or ~30ish NP when other things factored in for renaissance). But even that is a 20% boost in speed, not small.
 
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Constabulary: +15 security, +1 security per 2 population. Remove science/culture from identifying spies.

Police Station: +15 security, +1 security per 2 population. Remove capture/kill science and culture bonuses.
Those two would add 2 security per 2 population which means each citizen will give you +1 and -1 security, which basically means zero..
That would cause, that at the moment you build Police station, no more fun from Spying.. not sure this is good idea..
I was under impression, that scaling negative security with population, should be constantly countered by flat buildings, which basically mean Public works..
Maybe instead of that, you could add +1 security for every public works you already built?
So first public works gives you 5 security, but second give you 6 security?
Or maybe it would be even better to make a "Counter Espionage Net" project matching Public works, a little bit cheaper, but focusing purely on serurity?
 
each citizen will give you +1 and -1 security
Just checked the previous Beta version for info, and each citizen gives -2 security, not -1.
Wanna check this evening to check in game, when I have access to the game.
 
Just checked the previous Beta version for info, and each citizen gives -2 security, not -1.
I ment, with proposed Constabulary and Police station changes you would get +1+1, which would counter -2pop, but +2-2 basically means you lose 1 security and get one security per pop, which
efectively mitigate security loss from population
 
With proposed change, 2 pop gives a native -4 security, constabulary gives +1 (+1 per 2 pop), police station too, so you end up with -2 security for 2 pop.

An easier way to see this is, for each pop :
  • Native : -2 security,
  • Constabulary : +0.5 security,
  • Police station : +0.5 security
Without any building, it's -2/pop. With both buildings, it's -1/pop.
 
With proposed change, 2 pop gives a native -4 security, constabulary gives +1 (+1 per 2 pop), police station too, so you end up with -2 security for 2 pop.

An easier way to see this is, for each pop :
  • Native : -2 security,
  • Constabulary : +0.5 security,
  • Police station : +0.5 security
Without any building, it's -2/pop. With both buildings, it's -1/pop.
Yep, and this really begs the question, do we need any of these modifiers? Maybe it should simply be 0, and then the constabulary adds a static X amount, and police station adds Y. Do we really need to involve pop in the calculation?
 
Council of Elders really needs something. I took it in my most recent game and I felt it was incredibly lackluster.
Large Pangea. I attribute it to the neighbours fighting back in the faith game (i.e. I wasn't quick enough).

It seems like either
a)
Council of Elders: Increase bonus to 25 (from 20).
It needs some kind of numbers tweak. I would suggest halving the yields to +10 and then adding era scaling. This way the very early adoption (ideal conditions) situation doesnt run away too hard, but it gets back to current power in Medieval. Then later game conversions have an actual reward.
OR
b)
There's no way we can make this balanced for all map sizes and types. In Standard size Continents this is the worse Founder Belief, while it can easily snowball out of control in Huge Pangaea.
There is actually no real numbers tweak that will cover all the bases. In this case the belief should be redesigned. An obvious one would be to make it like the Evangelism belief, which reads
When you spread your :c5faith: Religion to foreign Cities, gain +15 :c5food: Food in Holy City, scaling with the number of new Followers of your :c5faith: Religion, and 15 :tourism: Tourism, scaling with the number of Followers of other :c5faith: Religions in the City.
But change the yields to :c5science::c5production: and alter the values appropriately.
 
It’s perfectly legitimate have a penalty completely nullified by a building. The penalty then becomes a tax for not having enough infrastructure.
 
It’s perfectly legitimate have a penalty completely nullified by a building. The penalty then becomes a tax for not having enough infrastructure.
Oh sure you can, it’s just in this case the penalty is the same as “security is 0” until police stations. So is it cleaner to just remove penalties and switch to static bonuses for the buildings.

It’s really do we find value in making our large capitals more vulnerable to spying than satellites, and do we have want security to have small variations city to city.
 
Council of Elders really needs something. I took it in my most recent game and I felt it was incredibly lackluster.
Large Pangea. I attribute it to the neighbours fighting back in the faith game (i.e. I wasn't quick enough).
It's absolutely insane if you found first and spread to half (+1) of each non-founder's cities, and all city states. You then keep getting yields for doing nothing, as the non-founders will spread the religion for you.
Oh sure you can, it’s just in this case the penalty is the same as “security is 0” until police stations. So is it cleaner to just remove penalties and switch to static bonuses for the buildings.

It’s really do we find value in making our large capitals more vulnerable to spying than satellites, and do we have want security to have small variations city to city.
Ideally we add a building in Industrial for mitigating the penalty. Constabulary unlocks in early Renaissance right when spies unlock, and Police Station is too late.
 
You then keep getting yields for doing nothing, as the non-founders will spread the religion for you.
Emphasis mine. I think this suggests it needs the rework.
 
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