Vox Populi Pantheon Comparison (Religion Race)

[Txurce]

This is dumb, why do the dutch basically get their own pantheon? Also the AI takes this really often as not the Dutch and still pays a lot more for imports when it has it

I don't see why it wouldn't work for Indonesia... or the odd appropriate starting location.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't see why it wouldn't work for Indonesia... or the odd appropriate starting location.

what he was saying was that it doesn't apply to resources you import, unless you are the netherlands, according to G in Github. Its a bizarre code change

 

[Gazebo]

what he was saying was that it doesn't apply to resources you import, unless you are the netherlands, according to G in Github. Its a bizarre code change

Hold up. I didn’t change anything beyond fixing a bug to make it work correctly with regards to original intent. There was some weird hacky code I had to clean up. Now, if we decide that Festivals is too weak as-is, we can modify it if desired. It wasn’t a balance change it was a bug fix.

G

 

[randomnub]

Gaja doesn't have 'that' much resource diversity, sometime your first cities spawn the same one and they all connect relatively late; on standard map scripts you can bet on having 2 different resources in the capital, and possibly 1 more different one in the nearby 3-4 expos (beside the monopoly one) before warring for space and before the religion race ends. 5-6 resources you 'own', or let say 9 for Indonesia.

Do those look like realistic numbers to you? Even a rapid expansion doesn't guarantee many unique resources, and you have to connect or settle on them with the appropriate tech; very good chance there're both quarries and plantation resources, so teching and racing for early wonders takes an hit.

That's an ok amount of gold, but +1 culture/faith per resource only, all applied to capital. I don't think it can found reliably, but also doesn't scale at all if not expanding (and even then, it's flat +3/1/1 yields per town you conquer at best, up to a certain limit) and unlike God of All Creation or Goddess of Beauty doesn't give immediate benefits either (you have to settle and connect resources, takes time).

The non-Dutch AI is taking it, pretty often actually, but when I examine their land it always looks like a very poor choice. Then with Deity boni they're actually able to found sometime but that doesn't say much.

 

[randomnub]

Hold up. I didn’t change anything beyond fixing a bug to make it work correctly with regards to original intent. There was some weird hacky code I had to clean up. Now, if we decide that Festivals is too weak as-is, we can modify it if desired. It wasn’t a balance change it was a bug fix.

G

Indeed it was a bug fix and its balance effects slipped by, I guess people don't use that pantheon a lot or simply didn't bother discuss it; I also don't play civ as much lately so I didn't make that big of a fuss about it.

As per original intent, do you mean you always wanted for it to consider resources in owned territory? Because in that case, it was the bug that made the pantheon fun/powerful enough (even with weaker yields, I think it was 2g2f1c?)

 

[Gazebo]

Indeed it was a bug fix and its balance effects slipped by, I guess people don't use that pantheon a lot or simply didn't bother discuss it; I also don't play civ as much lately so I didn't make that big of a fuss about it.

As per original intent, do you mean you always wanted for it to consider resources in owned territory? Because in that case, it was the bug that made the pantheon fun/powerful enough (even with weaker yields, I think it was 2g2f1c?)

Original intent = when we first revamped beliefs it was supposed to be a ‘gain x for every luxury you control in your territory.’

G

 

[CrazyG]

Original intent = when we first revamped beliefs it was supposed to be a ‘gain x for every luxury you control in your territory.’

G

Okay, if that it is the intent lets balance it around that intent, which means more than it has now

 

[randomnub]

Okay, and you want it to be a founding or not-founding pantheon sort of?

 

[pza]

I've been read-only mode for the past two months, since i haven't played civ since November and too much things have changed. I can't comment on almost any part of the game now, cause everything is upside down, i need to try it first. But this assumptions are totally broken and all numbers are wrong for sure.

Really, please do not make any decisions based on current numbers, i appreciate the effort, and the approach is right, i used it for more than two years to compare the pantheons. But there are too many mistakes.

You can't compare pantheons without taking playstyle into consideration. For example you take Expanse ONLY if you play Tradition, otherwise it is just a bad choice (no, you do not take Expanse with Authority, it does not make any sense), and you can't compare bad choices with good choices.
You take Commerce only for Carthage/Songhai/Hiawatha or if you play Progress.
You take Festivals only when you have high gold income an resources that are easy to improve (typically mining resources only) - and i think that Festivals is one of the strongest pantheons faith-wise, with Willie you are guaranteed to get a religion no matter what.

And there are a lot of things like this

Well, first of all, I did mention that i chose close to ideal, or at least good scenarios for each pantheon. The ideal balance is to have no real outliers in ideal scenarios, average or bad scenarios don't matter. And since some pantheons require the literal perfect storm for the best results, the ideal balance should also take into consideration probability. So what i did is i used "close to ideal, but realistic scenarios" for each individual pantheon, as i said.

Since you mentioned expanse - which i played a test game as russia to get some rough estimates - I of course did take tradition. I even considered authority's garrisons if they'd be better for border growth. But in the end, it wasn't.

For commerce it's the same thing. I even mentioned that those numbers are estimates for iroquois, carthago and songhai. I did not mention progress, because it's irrelevant, when you're cities are instantly connected. If you take commerce as none of those civs, you're most certainly not gaining as much from commerce as they would, even with progress.

Concerning Festivals, I did not take the dutch into account, because who the heck knows that they are treated differently, seriously? Well, tbh that's an excuse for "i didn't know", but either way - this is the opposite of constructive criticism. I told everyone that, if they might have an idea on how to do better, please to share it. And all you did was discredit all the work and leave, like a troll. thanks for that. Now, since you threw in that knowledge, how about you share some of your experience and data. how many ressources can you gather as dutch and trade for other ressources? how much is a likely number? in what turns do they connect/trade their ressources on average? and i hardly believe "No matter what" is very scientific. so please come again and share some realistic data with us.


what triggers me the most is tat last phrase. "And there are a lot of things like this". So now i'm either forced to tell everyone "hey he's right, my list is garbage, please forget everything, because he said so" and we leave it like that. Or, I can kindly ask you sir, WHAT ARE THOSE THINGS. Oh and this time, please read the sheet thoroughly.

 

[randomnub]

Okay, if that it is the intent lets balance it around that intent, which means more than it has now

Thinking about that, the issue here would be making it broken OP for Ned with more yields. I tend to rate the actual (weak for anybody) version balanced for Ned only because they already have good early culture/gold income and the faith you get from this pantheon is nothing spectacular.

What are the chances to convince G to go back to the unwanted behaviour?


To the triggered kitten above: you just assumed too slow settling imo, the idea behind this has its merits.

 

[pza]

Thinking about that, the issue here would be making it broken OP for Ned with more yields. I tend to rate the actual (weak for anybody) version balanced for Ned only because they already have good early culture/gold income and the faith you get from this pantheon is nothing spectacular.

What are the chances to convince G to go back to the unwanted behaviour?


To the triggered kitten above: you just assumed too slow settling imo, the idea behind this has its merits.

HOW DARE YOU CALL ME KITTEN!

i'm kidding, i said i'll update it soon, probably this evening CET. Still need numbers for dutch, though. If I don't get any, i'll stick with gajah/pedro.

oh, and i'll stick to the 6 city settling pattern i suggested in my last post, if noone protests.

 

[Gidoza]

I suppose I've had 6 cities before, though it does seem high to me. 5 seems more reasonable.

 

[Workerspam]

One suggestion to improve the estimates for a few of the tech restricted pantheons: simply assume Pottery + beelining the appropriate tech. So God of the Sea could assume Fishing is 3rd tech; Springtime can assume Markets will be available at 3rd tech; Craftsman at 4th tech.

If players aren't changing their tech path based on their desired pantheon that's their call to make. I can see situations where researching Animal Husbandry or Mining prior to Fishing or Trade makes sense but in a static analysis on faith yields it may be simpler to discuss the opportunity costs for beelining the necessary techs to maximize faith output than to assume players simply don't.

 

[DarkZero]

Hold up. I didn’t change anything beyond fixing a bug to make it work correctly with regards to original intent. There was some weird hacky code I had to clean up. Now, if we decide that Festivals is too weak as-is, we can modify it if desired. It wasn’t a balance change it was a bug fix.

G

This pantheon is the weakest in the entire game after the changes,bug or not, it should work for everyone the same so we can give it more yields if necessary, not special exceptions.

 

[Gazebo]

This pantheon is the weakest in the entire game after the changes,bug or not, it should work for everyone the same so we can give it more yields if necessary, not special exceptions.

I think that's fair.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

This pantheon is the weakest in the entire game after the changes,bug or not, it should work for everyone the same so we can give it more yields if necessary, not special exceptions.

It's not the weakest, at least it's stronger than God of All Creation. I don't see why I would ever take it when Goddess of Beauty exists and performs the same function better without being overpowered, or when even the most basic resource based pantheons provide more non-faith yields.

 

[Gazebo]

It's not the weakest, at least it's stronger than God of All Creation. I don't see why I would ever take it when Goddess of Beauty exists and performs the same function better without being overpowered, or when even the most basic resource based pantheons provide more non-faith yields.

Interesting...the AIs that take GOAC tend to do quite well.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Interesting...the AIs that take GOAC tend to do quite well.

G

Standard map? It can give you up to 4 of Science/Production (and food? I forgot which yields it gave) in the capital on a standard map, and that's quite bad. If you have two pastures and take God of Open Sky, you get 2Faith, 6 Gold and maybe 1-2 culture in one city, and the second city's coming soon, then the third, etc. It just takes you out of the religion race without compensating for that with yields or bonuses. It's even worse when there's that one AI that waits until mid classical before he gets a pantheon because he simply doesn't care, so you get even less, only 3 of those yields. This happened in the only game I've picked it, though admittedly I didn't check the UI (maybe it still gave me 4 at 7 pantheons). It's especially outclassed by Goddess of Beauty, which can provide non-Tradition goers a free Great Work of Art for permanent Culture and a Manufactory or Wonder with an Engineer while being pretty easy to found with if you get Stonehenge, but even if I was the last one to pick a pantheon, I'd rather take something else than GoAC. Maybe it'd be decent on Huge map with +2 players when you're Venice so you won't expand, but I don't see it working out well otherwise.

 

[randomnub]

GoAC is really good when you plan to not invest into faith more than a shrine, usurp the nearest religion and just want some early yields, science to get first to a military tech above all. The AI doesn't plan in advance such moves so might get stuck with a weak pantheon.

It's good to have some not-founding not-scaling frontloaded pantheons imo. Festivals just takes too long to provide the early not-scaling yields.

 

[Gazebo]

Standard map? It can give you up to 4 of Science/Production (and food? I forgot which yields it gave) in the capital on a standard map, and that's quite bad. If you have two pastures and take God of Open Sky, you get 2Faith, 6 Gold and maybe 1-2 culture in one city, and the second city's coming soon, then the third, etc. It just takes you out of the religion race without compensating for that with yields or bonuses. It's even worse when there's that one AI that waits until mid classical before he gets a pantheon because he simply doesn't care, so you get even less, only 3 of those yields. This happened in the only game I've picked it, though admittedly I didn't check the UI (maybe it still gave me 4 at 7 pantheons). It's especially outclassed by Goddess of Beauty, which can provide non-Tradition goers a free Great Work of Art for permanent Culture and a Manufactory or Wonder with an Engineer while being pretty easy to found with if you get Stonehenge, but even if I was the last one to pick a pantheon, I'd rather take something else than GoAC. Maybe it'd be decent on Huge map with +2 players when you're Venice so you won't expand, but I don't see it working out well otherwise.

Well it caps at 8 pantheons max for benefits, so map size doesn't really matter.

Interestingly I see GOAC found quite often for the AI (usually a REXer who spams Shrines).

G