VP Gold Build - The Master List

Favors Domination (Always available.)

Is epic balanced now? I remember it being much easier for domination. Has XP change made it even enough?

This also favors runaways imo.
You are right. I should have say "reasonnably balanced", or "intended as balanced", not "balanced". Because I don't think any settup (except maybe the most default one) is fully balanced.

I'm not sure there is any hope of having a balanced marathon game pace, while balancing epic seems feasable.

Similarly, small and larges maps will never be fully balanced, because changing the number of players change the feasability of all the victory types.

For events, Enginseer confirmed that bad events where designed to hurt more runaway than other civs, in order to compensate for good events (which favor runaway a lot). They may not be perfect, but the information "do not play with Good Event Only if you don't want runaways" should be communicated to more peoples.
 
All,

I want to ensure this thread doesn’t go off topic. This thread is to create the topics of debate, not to actually debate them.

If a balance concern has been raised let’s discuss it in its own thread please.
 
All,

I want to ensure this thread doesn’t go off topic. This thread is to create the topics of debate, not to actually debate them.

If a balance concern has been raised let’s discuss it in its own thread please.
This is what i was talking about in my previous post. Ideally those posts should be removed (as well as this post, ye)
 
Alright I think we have let the list bake in long enough. I am going to start a series of polls to try and lock down aspects of the list. Lets see if we can check the boxes!
 
G. I have updated the main post based on the results in the initial polls (2 week duration each).

For some I have recommended a ready for gold status. If you agree, than I will note those as Locked, which means we will make no further changes to them.

I'll start the next round of polls now.
 
G. I have updated the main post based on the results in the initial polls (2 week duration each).

For some I have recommended a ready for gold status. If you agree, than I will note those as Locked, which means we will make no further changes to them.

I'll start the next round of polls now.

Looks fine to me. To note, things can be gold/locked (goldilocked?) but, if there's a bug related to it, I'll still be fixing those. Case in point being the missing Museum on Louvre.

G
 
So themeing bonuses won't be changed? Pineappledans proposal is well-thought-out: Going for Gold: Themeing Bonuses
He's only referring to the ones marked "ready for gold" in the OP

I agree that it will take a while before leaders can really be locked in, that encompasees too many mechanics, so we are likely to change the leaders slightly with every adjustment to other features.

Case in point, pillaging bonuses are slated to get reworked, which means that all leaders with a Unique Improvement are getting modified in the near future.
Same with theming bonuses, since there has been a general agreement that at least one unique wonder, the Assyrian Royal Library, is deserving of a buff to its theming yields
 
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I really appreciate you setting up these forums to discuss finalization for specific mechanics, but I wonder if we couldn't do this a little better?

It's obvious at this point that some of these discussions are getting very granular, and require a lot of systems knowledge for how the game works. Many of the systems you are trying to discuss are so tangential to core gameplay that few people even understand how they work, much less how they are supposed to work. Some of the threads are equal parts discussion of the actual topic, and people asking for information on the mechanic.

As an example, it was very slow to get a productive conversation going on the pillaging bonuses until @Gazebo posted a list of what the current pillage values actually were. Until that point, the thread had devolved into pie-in-the-sky theorycrafting.

If you aren't disposed to dredging up specifics for some of the bonuses, and giving a brief explanation of what the mechanic actually does, then I would ask that you leave a second, sticky post at the top of all your new Going For Gold threads, where you can copy information and specifics if people produce that information later. That way, if people come in a little late, they can see the top of the OP and get caught up on what the current state of that mechanic is. It will help people create informed opinions, and make the discussions easier to get into. It would be more likely that we could get more people to give opinions if we were more forthcoming with information
 
I'm wondering, is the diplomacy AI system something that's up for discussion? What I mean is this information panel (raw numbers being visible with "Transparent Diplomacy"), as well as the messages you get from the AI.

From the previous discussion it's clear it requires a fair amount of systems knowledge to understand how the AI makes these decisions, however. That said, I think the community may have opinions to share on the general functioning of the diplomacy AI.

Personally, I find there's one problem that hasn't fully been fixed from vanilla; the AI finds a lot of reasons to get angry at you, and holds on to these reasons for a very long time, while building up positive relations is fairly difficult.

I'll admit, I often play aggressively - but I do try to keep up relations with the AI through trade, DoFs, etc. and I always end up with chain denunciations of me and repeated declarations of war due to my warmongering.

I don't think chain denouncing the warmonger who's conquering everywhere is necessarily a bad thing - what I do find annoying is that the AI will repeatedly declare war on me due to the warmongering modifier, lose to me in war, and then wait about 20 turns before declaring war again, losing again, and the cycle repeats until I conquer and vassalize them - by repeatedly declaring war, they made themselves a target by angering me.

Furthermore, if I'm able to fend off wars on 2-3 fronts simultaneously with no ill consequences, while earning what amounts to free gold and luxuries after I win, perhaps the AIs should take a hint and beef up their military, band together or try a different tactic to defeat me rather than try the same thing over and over again.

I also had the weakest civilization in the game decide it was a good idea to wage a brokered war towards me right before their capital was about to fall and they'd have only one city left - their military being much weaker than mine.

The AI does not always make the smartest diplomatic/trade decisions, and I think there's some room for improvement here. In particular they should remember the outcomes of previous wars.

I understand there are memory constraints, but a quick note like "defeated my army of X size with Y war score" and considering that when declaring war or sending hateful messages or making trade deals would make them a lot smarter IMO.

It's also not clear why the AI hates you sometimes, despite that being a goal of the mod. Sometimes it feels like they're just looking for reasons to hate you, with the way every action you do (mostly) is held against you for the rest of the game.

For example, "Your recent diplomatic actions disappoint them." can be triggered by a number of things, for example if another AI decides to end their DoF with you (note: not actually "your" action), or if you select the insulting response to one of their statements, or if you end your DoF with them. And it decays very slowly, starting at -30 and reducing by 1 every 5-ish turns from what I've seen, so it's not as "recent" as it says.

And I had to read into the code to figure out that "Your behavior infuriates them." is triggered by you having a significant lead for any victory condition, as it's labelled VICTORY_BLOCK.

I don't understand the reasons for all these decisions, but I think more transparency about how the AI works in this regard would help the community suggest improvements. After all, the diplomacy AI is an important part of the ultimate single player experience.

As a final note, "Transparent Diplomacy" does not reveal when an AI is DECEPTIVE rather than FRIENDLY. I think it should.
 
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I'm wondering, is the diplomacy AI system something that's up for discussion? What I mean is this information panel (raw numbers being visible with "Transparent Diplomacy"), as well as the messages you get from the AI.

From the previous discussion it's clear it requires a fair amount of systems knowledge to understand how the AI makes these decisions, however. That said, I think the community may have opinions to share on the general functioning of the diplomacy AI.

Personally, I find there's one problem that hasn't fully been fixed from vanilla; the AI finds a lot of reasons to get angry at you, and holds on to these reasons for a very long time, while building up positive relations is fairly difficult.

I'll admit, I often play aggressively - but I do try to keep up relations with the AI through trade, DoFs, etc. and I always end up with chain denunciations of me and repeated declarations of war due to my warmongering.

I don't think chain denouncing the warmonger who's conquering everywhere is necessarily a bad thing - what I do find annoying is that the AI will repeatedly declare war on me due to the warmongering modifier, lose to me in war, and then wait about 20 turns before declaring war again, losing again, and the cycle repeats until I conquer and vassalize them - by repeatedly declaring war, they made themselves a target by angering me.

Furthermore, if I'm able to fend off wars on 2-3 fronts simultaneously with no ill consequences, while earning what amounts to free gold and luxuries after I win, perhaps the AIs should take a hint and beef up their military, band together or try a different tactic to defeat me rather than try the same thing over and over again.

I also had the weakest civilization in the game decide it was a good idea to wage a brokered war towards me right before their capital was about to fall and they'd have only one city left - their military being much weaker than mine.

The AI does not always make the smartest diplomatic/trade decisions, and I think there's some room for improvement here. In particular they should remember the outcomes of previous wars.

I understand there are memory constraints, but a quick note like "defeated my army of X size with Y war score" and considering that when declaring war or sending hateful messages or making trade deals would make them a lot smarter IMO.

It's also not clear why the AI hates you sometimes, despite that being a goal of the mod. Sometimes it feels like they're just looking for reasons to hate you, with the way every action you do (mostly) is held against you for the rest of the game.

For example, "Your recent diplomatic actions disappoint them." can be triggered by a number of things, for example if another AI decides to end their DoF with you (note: not actually "your" action), or if you select the insulting response to one of their statements, or if you end your DoF with them. And it decays very slowly, starting at -30 and reducing by 1 every 5-ish turns from what I've seen, so it's not as "recent" as it says.

And I had to read into the code to figure out that "Your behavior infuriates them." is triggered by you having a significant lead for any victory condition, as it's labelled VICTORY_BLOCK.

I don't understand the reasons for all these decisions, but I think more transparency about how the AI works in this regard would help the community suggest improvements. After all, the diplomacy AI is an important part of the ultimate single player experience.

As a final note, "Transparent Diplomacy" does not reveal when an AI is DECEPTIVE rather than FRIENDLY. I think it should.

Not making any more major changes to the AI system - aggressive players create aggressive responses from the AI.

And if transparent diplomacy revealed deception that'd be cheating. I already dislike transparent diplomacy because those numbers are not indicative of approach, rather just an opinion modifier.

G
 
And if transparent diplomacy revealed deception that'd be cheating. I already dislike transparent diplomacy because those numbers are not indicative of approach, rather just an opinion modifier.

G
I'd go as far as supporting a complete removal. Not completely sure about this but people seem to get a weird idea of handling diplomacy and trade when they get to change opinion numbers with it. Stuff like making completely unnecessary deals and perhaps being too fickle about taking cities. Maybe influences stances on how the AI suddenly does something unexpected when the numbers didn't represent that possibility. The description alone is all you need to understand the AIs opinion of you. Anything extra should involve wrapping your head around the natural consequences of your actions as it's way more likely to be correct than trying to manage opinion modifiers.
 
So be it, then.

The issue I was raising was not the AI being too aggressive - it was the AI's opinion lowering too easily when it would be in its best interests to play nice, well- and that they will remember your Ancient era actions in the Information era and act based on that, which seems a bit too much of a punishment IMO.

I also think a few of the modifiers could be made clearer in some way - "Your behavior infuriates them" is likely to leave a new player scratching their head.

I think if you play aggressively you should have aggressive AI opponents. That isn't my issue, although it's likely a common complaint. The point I was making is that the AI can be aggressive to the point of being self-destructive; I think challenging opponents who want to win are great; but it seems they too often resort to the cycle of war and peace I described. Even if they have a higher score in military, if they've been defeated repeatedly they should recognize their opponent is challenging, and rather than try the same thing again, try a different strategy (e.g. banding together, sowing discord, or even just increasing the size of their military) while still remaining aggressive and competitive. And maybe think twice before accepting brokered war offers against players who have previously defeated them with few/no losses.

I understand this might be beyond the scope of VP, however, and the AI is still leagues better than the vanilla AI. I'd call it a success; I just think it could be improved further, but I guess that's what modmods are for.

In my opinion, if showing deception is cheating, displaying raw opinion numbers and displaying modifiers that are normally hidden is also cheating. I don't see how displaying the approach is that much worse - you can already find out through espionage if they're acting deceptively and they can't find that out about you; this just makes it easier for the player.

Isn't Transparent Diplomacy a player choice to give yourself an information cheat, anyway? Much like playing with InfoAddict. So personally I don't understand the objection.

If people want to make their game easier, that's their choice IMO. I personally don't use it except as a debug/learning tool of sorts, and I think it'd function better if it revealed that.

I understand the difference between opinion and approach, but even if changes will not be made, I think more transparency (I mean it as a pun, not an accusation :p) about how it works would be useful knowledge.
 
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So be it, then.
Isn't Transparent Diplomacy a player choice to give yourself an information cheat, anyway? Much like playing with InfoAddict. So personally I don't understand the objection.
Is it though? Don't the AI keep a running tally of what has occured and hasn't occured between them and the human and how to increase their modifiers?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't transparent diplomacy also give you the exact numbers in the trading screen? If that's the case, I'd argue for a split so that playing with transparent trading is independent from seeing the diplomacy numbers. The latter I can live without, the trading numbers I need in order not to go crazy when trying to figure out how much the AI values their resources etc.
 
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