VQ06b - Emperor just win!

[GreyFox]

Is JC in representation? Fav civic boost only works when JC is also in his fav civic.

Goodjob converting Karakorum to prod powerhouse. I was undecided which rout to go so I do both (windmill->mine and farm->cottage) ... , specializing is the correct move.

I am surprise you managed to get into representation without any major unhappiness problems. Perhaps those happiness resources that Cyrus has extra which he would undoubtedly be kind enough to share with us helped.

Guys, try to be a good PA partner. Helping Cyrus whenever we can would help us in the end as well.

Based on my recent experience in RB17R, JC will not go into DP with us when he is only pleased. Guess apart from a mutual struggle, the only approach left is the fav civics.

If it is still not enough, perhaps we should buy JC into joining us in a war with Monty or HC to get the mutual struggle benefit. This is also serves to increase our pop, and decrease the opposition's pop (and obviously, pop = votes).

Roster
-- GreyFox == Hoping that the game does not return to him
-- namliaM == hero of the day our precious PA ... but a for robbing Cyrus clean
-- armstrong == just played == Back to busy ... don't you need to sleep?
-- eektor == UP == Either continue A$$ Kissing (JC's a$$) or A$$ Kicking (Monty's a$$)
-- cosmichail == On Deck == Give us a diplo win. Make it so.

 

[Mutineer]

Lurker comment:

I personally never study PA, but here a few question I do not know the answer:

1). You have penalty to research because you are human and it is hight dificulty.
Cyrus have bonus, because he is AI. So, wha thappened when you get into PA?
If you still have penalty and cyrus bonus may be it is better to actially give him money and let him to research everyhting?

2). Can you still sign DP and can that break PA? I mean you sign DP and Cyrus decided to declare on them?

 

[namliaM]

I thought that GPT was surplus from having the Buddhist shrine?!

Hmz... Strange... I didnt realize at the time I might be crippling our partner... Sorry guys...

At the moment of signing the PA Cyrus was no longer #1 in score, he still is the number 1 in power. HC pulled ahead the moment he killed Mansa...

@Armstrong: Try using the upload feature WAY on the bottom of the page...

 

[GreyFox]

Lurker comment:
I personally never study PA, but here a few question I do not know the answer:

Me neither, so below are just based on what I gather from the forum, with my own guess

1). You have penalty to research because you are human and it is hight dificulty.
Cyrus have bonus, because he is AI. So, wha thappened when you get into PA?
If you still have penalty and cyrus bonus may be it is better to actially give him money and let him to research everyhting?

I think it works independently. Say Cyrus is now 500bpt, we are 100bpt before PA. After PA, we each suffer a research penalty of say 10%, so cyrus is now 450bpt, and we are 90bpt.

We can both try to research the same tech, in which case we pour a total beakers of 540. Or, we can research different branch.

SO, it does not matter abt who has research advantage. But I agree with you, if somehow we could convince Cyrus to slide his science rate to 100%, then the best combination would be we set our science at 0%, Cyrus set his at 100%, and we give him Xgpt for him to substain 100% research.

Nte: above numbers are simply pulled from the air.

2). Can you still sign DP and can that break PA? I mean you sign DP and Cyrus decided to declare on them?

Nope, according to the manual, PA is like a nation with 2 leaders. One leader must honor the treaty made by the other leader. So if we sign DP with JC, it implies Cyrus is also signing DP with JC.

This is not Rat Pack ... In Rat Pack, it wasn't a PA. It was a modded always peace flag.


Disclaimer: Above are just my "educated" guess. Treat it with however many salt you can spare.

 

[eektor]

Well if we are trying to go for diplomatic, the best we can acheive is JC voting for us, so would Cyrus, JC, and us have the population needed to win a diplomatic victory?

If not we either put farms everywhere or take some cities from HC or Monty. I think Monty would be easier and closer to us. Although inflating our population by building farms everywhere could work too.

Tell me what you think and I'll play tonight.

 

[Cosmichail]

It might be enough Eektor or we might need some of Monty's land/pop. The farm idea is good too as our cities have lots of room to grow. I am hoping that we have enough with the UN.

 

[GreyFox]

Cyrus + us has 42% of population. Assuming the remaining 3 civ has equal population, JC would have 19%, which is an overestimate me think, giving a total of 63%. Still not enough. I think its necessary for us to declare on Monty to get mutual struggle benefit plus reduce the opponent's pop. JC is willing to go to war with the two techs lead we had over him, (Electricity and something else), so I suggest you do so (i.e. bride him into a war) during your turnset. Meanwhile build some military and wait for JC to come asking for help, then we declare. That should secure JC's votes. Then we raze or keep Monty's cities as much as possible, that should give us a diplo win.

Radio takes 7 more turns, and Mass media 14 more. That's 21 more turns ... damned ... this game will return back into my hand. Shortest possible win is I estimate 30 turns -- 20 tunrs to reserch Mass Media, 4 turns to build UN, 3 turns for Gen Sec election and 3 more for diplo voting ... so we have 25 turns to achieve (1) get JC to friendy, (2) assimilate Monty's pop such that we get 65% pop.

EDIT: One more thing: might want to tweak Beshbalik such that we have a higher chance of getting a GE ... builds the UN faster

 

[Cosmichail]

I like the idea of going after Monty. He has horses which we don't have so we should keep that city to have horsies again. Of course once we assist JC in war Cyrus will join in too and he has a sh*tload of soldiers. We will be able to use transports/destroyers too woooohooo modern warfare. I wish we had tanks too but infantry will do. Monty is backwards so we should fare well. Only he tends to keep large SOD's which we should be prepared for.

 

[armstrong]

Doh, it didn't even occur to me that we'd need to go after Monty to get our land for the diplomatic win. I would have built a navy... My apologies.

Declaring war with Monty (and pulling JC in) is probably the best route. However, I'm not certain we'll need to capture any cities - our cities have a decent amount of room to grow even without biological farms, so we might be able to get up over the diplomatic cap that way. What's the exact % needed?

We have infantry, artillery, and a modern navy now, so Monty shouldn't last too long with us, Cyrus, and Rome all hitting him at once. What I'm most concerned about is building up an assault force. We could just send in the medieval force with a couple infantry as defenders and a few artillery to soften up cities, though...

 

[eektor]

War it is. I like GreyFox idea of getting JC to go to war with Monty and then wait until he asks for help. That would give us the + for we helped during war time if the mutual struggle disappears right before the vote.

I'll look for a good time to switch to Theocracy from OR. I'll definitely keep Representative since that is JC's favorite civic (someone said).

Any ideas on if we should switch from bureacracy to free speech? If we have enough towns I think it would be worth it to change to free speech.

 

[namliaM]

From what I understand from PA and tech is not that you get a penalty but rather the techs become more expensive, something like 50% more expensive PER TEAM MEMBER... But ... I might be wrong... I think the bonus/penalty is still in place, but there is no telling at point Cyrus has his slider on 100%. Which makes for a tricky situation, as even an AI cannot research above 100% which is why I thought that all that GPT was surplus from his shrine...

We probably have a food surplus everywhere now, due to Biology... so we are going to grow, no mater what...
Declaring war on Monty, JC and Cyrus are not going to be much use. AI and landings? Geez...

 

[armstrong]

Any ideas on if we should switch from bureacracy to free speech? If we have enough towns I think it would be worth it to change to free speech.

I revolted to Free Speech at the same time as Representation as it was still only a 1 turn anarchy - I counted towns & it was in our best interest at the time. I thought I mentioned that in the turn report, but I might have forgotten... I was sleepy.

I do believe you're right about the PA & techs namliaM. However, what I don't know is how the actual cost is calculated - the changes for difficulty levels are are in the cost, not an inherent bonus or penalty I think. Take a look at one of Cyrus's cities - Broadway, for instance, requires less total hammers for him than it would for us.

Or, when you research, say, Meditation on Monarch, it takes more beakers than researching it on Noble. I'm not sure if that is just a display thing, though, that hides an underlying modifier.

So I don't know if it matters or not as far as research goes. For production, though, he definitely gets bonuses we don't. That being said, we still want to be the ones to build the UN.

 

[eektor]

Well that's why I think it might be good to have JC war with Monty before we join in. Either 2 things will happen:

1. JC lands units and gets killed by Monty weakening both of them but more JC.

2. Monty sends his units away and lands them in JC territory. Homeland has less units and would be easier for us to take a city when we join the war. Cyrus should be able to mop up the Monty units in JC's territory if there are any left when we go to war.

 

[namliaM]

I think in a PA also only one of the 2 partners can build a wonder... So as long as we are first to start it....

On war, Eektor, I dont think we want to take on JC... He will vote for us (probably) we want/need to lower the opposition voting power while raising our power. i.e. Kill Monty

 

[ChrTh]

I think in a PA also only one of the 2 partners can build a wonder... So as long as we are first to start it....

For Newly-Available-Via-Research Wonders
Here's how it works: since the beakers are applied after your turn, whoever researches the tech doesn't get first dibs on building the wonder. If it's a critical wonder that you don't trust the AI to build correctly, you need to make sure that you won't research the tech. This is done by getting the number of turns remaining down to 1 and lowering your science so that the light green you contribute won't get the tech (ie there's still a gap in the meter). This will sometimes get number of turns remaining to 2, but it's a choice you have to make.

 

[armstrong]

For Newly-Available-Via-Research Wonders
Here's how it works: since the beakers are applied after your turn, whoever researches the tech doesn't get first dibs on building the wonder. If it's a critical wonder that you don't trust the AI to build correctly, you need to make sure that you won't research the tech. This is done by getting the number of turns remaining down to 1 and lowering your science so that the light green you contribute won't get the tech (ie there's still a gap in the meter). This will sometimes get number of turns remaining to 2, but it's a choice you have to make.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Wouldn't it also be possible to switch your research to something else on the last turn, but have your partner keep researching it?

So, this means we need Cyrus to discover Mass Media, right?

 

[ChrTh]

Interesting, I didn't know that. Wouldn't it also be possible to switch your research to something else on the last turn, but have your partner keep researching it?

So, this means we need Cyrus to discover Mass Media, right?

Yes, that'd also work. Make sure they're still at (1 turn left) on their research though (visible in the list on the right).

And if you want to be the builders of UN, yes, Cyrus should discover it first.

 

[Cosmichail]

That's good to know Chris... I wondered about that as I was in another PA and found the AI beat me to a wonder I wanted after researching it. (Pentagon)

 

[GreyFox]

On War:

- Look, the idea is not to capture any cities or whatever ... the idea is to have fun while winning. And everybody agree war is fun.

- Yes, concentrating on growth may push us to 50% pop by the time UN is built, and if JC votes for us, we would surely win. But (there is always a but) #1 sending troops overseas does not hinder us from growing -- ie, they can be carried out at the same time, #2 and unless you want us to grow by more than half our current size, we still need JC's votes. But ...

- JC is only pleased. Some of you treat it as if his votes is secured. The reality is he will not vote for us (yes, he will give us vote for GenSec, but not for diplo) at current standings. The relationship needs to be improved. Favorite civics may do the trick by the time we built UN, it may not. I rather have the guarantee of a mutual struggle to seal the deal.

- Did I mentioned the point on playing SG is to have fun?

- Worrying abt naval warfare, overseas incursions and all that? With Cyrus' military might and the human brain ... come on!

- If indeed people are still worrying abt fighting and losing (pfffbt!) armies, tell you what: all we need to do is to gain the mutual struggle benefit, we need not actually fight offensive war. Another "safe" thing we could do is, we could simply go pillage Monty's seafood to force a starvation, or at minimum hinder his growth. That will reduce Monty's number of votes as well.

- Have I already mentioned the "war is fun" part?

--

Okay, the above are grumps from an old fox with a warmonger's heart ... Please don't let me sway your decision

 

[Cosmichail]

JC is only pleased. Some of you treat it as if his votes is secured. The reality is he will not vote for us (yes, he will give us vote for GenSec, but not for diplo) at current standings.

Totally agree we need to get him to friendly again to get him to vote for us in a diplomatic victory. More ass kissing or like you say greyfox just get a mutual struggle benefit.

Did I mention too I think warring is fun. Especially when the guy falls dead on the ground and I laugh cause I don't know him. (yes a Homer moment)

I love naval incursions/campaigns. It's work but can be fun and what better schmuck to do it to than Monty. Is that guys always annoyed...

Let's get some infantry/artillery (if we have it) and take a few cities just to up the vote ante. (even better with tanks)

Like you said earlier get JC to start and wait for him to ask and then we get a nice bonus, a little ass kissing corporate style and voila he will vote for us in a diplomatic victory.