VQ06b - Emperor just win!

Cosmichail · Jun 20, 2006

Just a couple of things:

1: forgot to fortify axe on silk.
2. Monty does not have optics so he met us in a galley and can't be far away
3. When I look at tech screen, nobody has theology, so another civ has it in a galaxy far, far away. So that would make a decent trade for a lot more techs.

GreyFox · Jun 20, 2006

Sorry, guys, couldn't play tonight ... guessed you'll have to wait for 24 more hrs ...

EDIT: But I did look at the save, the assessment seems correct.

Mental note to self: need to check relationships before trading. Careful abt JC, he is going to take the barb city.

armstrong · Jun 20, 2006

Cosmichail said:
3. When I look at tech screen, nobody has theology, so another civ has it in a galaxy far, far away. So that would make a decent trade for a lot more techs.

Well, they might - we can only see techs we can trade for. We'll find out when we get Monotheism. However, Monty & KK don't have Mono yet and Cyrus & JC aren't running Theocracy, so there should be some room for trading, definitely to Monty, hopefully to JC, and maybe even Cyrus.

namliaM · Jun 20, 2006

GreyFox said:
It can go the other way round ... we could be building cats while learning CoL ... what's use of courthouses if there is no city to build it? Plus construction is already due in 3 turns ... not too smart to start changing again.

I agree we dont change now anymore... But... I would peronaly have done it the other way around...

GreyFox said:
Screw that, there is not a **** we can do abt that except not going to war. Can we afford not to?

Maybe by not addopting it as a religion? Tho it offcourse does cost us 1

per city...

GreyFox said:
Cyrus did found Buddhism (the star in the buddha's icon besides Cyrus' name). I think we let it spread on its own if we are going the warring route. As you pointed out yourself, there is the problem of fighting sis & bro of our faith.

I may still want to get Theology for trading purposes (meaning getting Monothesim out of the way), depending on who discovered it ... if it is an unknown Civ, then it is still worthwhile to get Theology.

OK we wait and save us the hammers... Offcourse this does cost us in other ways

)) I think building atleast one missionary if we have the chance to send to Paris will help a lot allready... + it doubles the chance of it spreading...

==> Why not still shoot for CS? How long for us to research CoL right now? And wait for the GP to use on CS! We will have to be patient but the pay off.... oh the pay off....

What is the purpose of Monotheism? And/or Theology? Those civics currently are to expensive to run for us IMHO. So why get them? CoL is usefull now and allready was many turns ago... I wont even go into CS... Offcourse CS would be ever so much more usefull if we had Buddism allready there

I checked the save. Currently we can be sure NO AI we know has CoL. Some AI somewhere does have it ... for Confusionalism has been founded. But not by any AI we know...
I dont know the list of the GP's researchable techs. But I suppose by you guys suggesting the Mono-Theo thing... That the GP would first take Mono then Theo then only then take CS/CoL?

That barb city should be razed (and replaced 1 west) but that is the perfectionist in me... I know City upkeep is allready killing, but can we really stand to have JC have 2 ways of getting at us?

QuestionHow and where did we meet monty? I cant find anything that proves he excists on our Island. I sure hope its not an Caravel allready ... :crazyeye:

@Cosmachial how do you know Monty doesnt have Optics?? He has both Compass and Metal Casting, which are the 2 prerequisites for Optics that we CAN see...

armstrong · Jun 20, 2006

namliaM said:
I dont know the list of the GP's researchable techs. But I suppose by you guys suggesting the Mono-Theo thing... That the GP would first take Mono then Theo then only then take CS/CoL?

It's worse than that... After Theology next up is Divine Right (except doesn't that have another pre-req? Monarchy? Hmm.) There just really isn't anything useful to do with the prophet other than researching Theology.

As I mentioned before, if we used a time machine, I'm almost certain going back to grab CoL before Masonry+Construction would put us in the stronger position. At the time, though, I don't think any of us were thinking that far ahead. In fact, I might take my own time machine out

lol

and try it out, once this game ends

namliaM said:
How and where did we meet monty? I cant find anything that proves he excists on our Island. I sure hope its not an Caravel allready ...

Monty very well might have Optics, but he's no big threat. His score is in the same neighborhood as KK's, who has taken a huge beating. He's missing a lot of techs the others have. Since he has no religion whatsoever, I'm guessing he started on an isolated island, and either took a caravel over or eventually made a cultural bridge...

Which is actually wonderful news. It means the other two civs are the religion hogs, presumably sharing a continent with only each other, which means no tech trading before Optics. Hopefully they've been fighting lots of long, bloody, holy wars. :devil:

Cosmichail · Jun 20, 2006

Offcourse this does cost us in other ways () I think building atleast one missionary if we have the chance to send to Paris will help a lot allready... + it doubles the chance of it spreading...

I would like to see at least one missionary too to get another citizen in Paris working cottage/sea...

Why not still shoot for CS? How long for us to research CoL right now? And wait for the GP to use on CS! We will have to be patient but the pay off.... oh the pay off....

Oh the pay off and getting Beshbalik to build Nat Epic would speed that up so Lit should be in a trade sometime/ or research after Mono/COL and of course Monarchy would be nice.....

I dont know the list of the GP's researchable techs

After mono he will only give theology iirc. COL probably needs scientist like Taoism but just guessing here since I have always researched it. After COL he will offer CS as long as there are no other religious techs that's why I always leave masonry alone for a while.

That barb city should be razed (and replaced 1 west) but that is the perfectionist in me

Agree get rid of the piece of crap*&*^..... and I don't like JC south and north of us...(feels like a sandwich......mmmmmmmm food)

QuestionHow and where did we meet monty? I cant find anything that proves he excists on our Island. I sure hope its not an Caravel allready ...

Ok I forget to pay attention to that but it was likely the fishing boat near Cyrus's borders and I wish I had noticed what vessel he had.

eventually made a cultural bridge...

That's what I think is the case but I am using the force here. I looked around to see if I could find it but has to be close to Cyrus.

@Cosmachial how do you know Monty doesnt have Optics??

Again as Armstrong points out we can only see what we can trade so I am only using the force here again.

In hindsight we could have done things differently like COL but I didn't want to waste beakers. I did notice right away the maintenance is very high and felt COL would have helped. We still couldn't GP CS until mono/theology was out of the way. So at this point theology is a big jump and hopefully tradeable too. Would be nice to beat them to COL for trade as well which after mono 4 turns will take 13 turns at current research rate. I was hoping fishies could be sold (armstrong mentioned JC has 5 gpt available which would help immensely) to offset -2 gpt loss.

eektor · Jun 20, 2006

Well, I've been busy getting ready for my trip, so not much comments here.

One thing though, you guys are saying the other civs don't have CoL. We do not know for sure because based on the screens I've seen we don't have Priesthood and that is a prereq for CoL. I would not be surprised that everyone or everyone except for KK has CoL. Theology is a safer bet because JC and Cyrus (? not sure about this) aren't that focused on religion and would be going up a different branch (JC - military, Cyrus - Currency around there)

As for Monty with our work boat sailing around we would know for sure if he had a galley instead of a caravel. My guess would be he actually has optics and came by a caravel. From what I remember there was only 2 possible places where there could be a bridge to another island or continent.

Cosmichail · Jun 20, 2006

we don't have Priesthood and that is a prereq for CoL

We have it eektor I asked Cyrus for it and he gifted it to us. Wasn't that nice of him......

eektor · Jun 20, 2006

Oh wow, I just looked back and saw you made a screen just for that. I think I better go reread the last page of posts again.

armstrong · Jun 20, 2006

An idea just occurred to me. If we could get Currency & Metalcasting from Theology trades, and whipped a market in Besh, if we got lucky with a Great Merchant he'd discover CS for us I pretty sure.

If we ran 2 merchants, 1 scientist, and stonehenge, it'd be 11 gpt/turn, so less than 20 turns, not much longer after CoL comes in, and it's a 50-50 shot. Of course, scientist would be good, too, for Philosphy.

If we didn't get Monarchy (though we probably should) GP would discover CS too I think? Interesting... or, if we got Calendar too by some means, we'd obsolete the 'Henge and not have to worry about a GP.

Too confusing! :crazyeye:

But I think we have a lot of options out there.

dot · Jun 20, 2006

lurker's comment: GP can go for CS. But I'm not sure whether he does if philosophy for religion is still available. :crazyeye:

Cosmichail · Jun 20, 2006

Hi there Dot.... Scientist seems to be the one for Philosophy...

@Armstrong - How about the National Epic, that would make 22 gp points. We get some nice gp although there will be a mix but most likely merchant/scientist. (just need literature for that but wow)

Great Merchant he'd discover CS for us I pretty sure

Never heard that before as I always have had a GP give like 80% of CS. Great Merchant is great for short term cash gain and even better as a super specialist. But if he could CS then why not. I have found a lot of info on CS slingshot in thread (strategy) and it's always seems to be GP==Oracle/COL combo.

GreyFox · Jun 20, 2006

namliaM said:
That barb city should be razed (and replaced 1 west) but that is the perfectionist in me... I know City upkeep is allready killing, but can we really stand to have JC have 2 ways of getting at us?

From the save, JC has already founded a city (Arpinum) besides the barb city. He aleready has two ways of getting to us.

namliaM · Jun 21, 2006

We just have to be a bit carefull if/when we start a war on JC. Do we want to take out that barb city before JC takes it?
I want that fishing village. It is so close to "home" that it would have LOW upkeep and be a good return on investment, I think...
But I would want to (re-)build it 1 West to pick up more water... Tho now we do have the deer and most of the (more intresting) coastal tiles...

armstrong · Jun 21, 2006

namliaM said:
We just have to be a bit carefull if/when we start a war on JC. Do we want to take out that barb city before JC takes it?
I want that fishing village. It is so close to "home" that it would have LOW upkeep and be a good return on investment, I think...
But I would want to (re-)build it 1 West to pick up more water... Tho now we do have the deer and most of the (more intresting) coastal tiles...

Yeah, we'll want it eventually... if we raze it, JC will most likely just send a settler down (but maybe he'll drop it 1w instead? :mischief:

) I really don't know. I don't think JC having two mediocre cities on our south border is worse than one decent city.

If JC declares on us when we fight Khan, it will probably be the end of the game - we just won't be able to keep up with the army he's amassed. Ideally, we want to be able to get some tech to trade with JC to go to war with Cyrus before we hit him, so we burn off his forces and then hit him from the rear. I'm not sure if that will be possible, but it'd sure be nice

If we could do that - get JC in a drag-down fight with Cyrus - it will probably weaken him enough we can eventually take him over. Once we do that, we're going to be the biggest & baddest on our continent and can take Cyrus to get even bigger, and then just mop up the weaker folks (or at least hold 'em down for a time/space/diplo win.)

We're already #3 in production - the hard part is overcoming this big tech hole we're in, which is why I keep harping on GP's for research - I think GP for tech trading is really key at higher levels.

As an example, see that emperor game Cosmichail mentioned (Acid03) - they relied heavily there on being Philosphical and using GP's to discover techs while they just whittled away at the AI's (or fought off JC's stacks of doom on a walled hill city until he ran out of steam :lol:

) Once they were big enough, they could research trading techs on their own fast enough, but those first GP were pretty crucial.

If we don't end up winning this game, I'd love to give it another shot with some slightly easier settings - Pangaea & Liz, maybe.

Win or lose, we have a shot at winning and I know at least I am learning tons for the next time around. :goodjob:

@Cosmichail - National Epic is great, we'll definitely want it, but we won't be able to build it very quickly without marble (unlike a market, which we can whip.) I think getting a second GP asap that will give us a tradeable tech is crucial. Maybe it's best to go just with scientists, though. Philosophy should be close to a sure thing for trades (I'd hope) and we could run Pacifism for the same effect as NE.

Cosmichail · Jun 21, 2006

JC is a threat indeed. Although last time I checked save he was "pleased" with us. That must have changed on the last turn as during the game as he was cautious. Although he can easily be bribed to go into war against us. How about this as I think Cyrus might be unhappy with us if we bribed (if we can)JC to go to war. He is a good trading partner and might be valuable to us as he has proven already. (gave us a tech, and in trade two more). I don't think we want to make JC stronger and have more enemies. Perhaps getting prepared for a possible war is a good idea. Perhaps a quick take of Karakorum, hook up elephants and build lots of them including cats.

Therefore we shouldn't go to war until we have courthouses. The industrous trait has been totally useless but wouldn't that help with National wonders. Having National epic would give the umph we need to move along in tech. Getting scientists with 22 gp points will give us considerable help in the tech department. I am with Amstrong on that we need to develop that city and protect it. Personally I always have a good force behind in critical cities as I notice AI likes to move SOD via ship to your capitol. (and don't forget the pillaging of sea resources, so we should protect those with gallies) I think KK will likely target Besh so there too we need better protection. We should think about trading for Literature to get Nat Epic. Unit cost is only 7 within our borders and it doesn't cost us as much as was stated for troops outside our borders.

Acid 03 is a good example as Armstrong stated and how one needs to survive in Emporer. (they did it on immortal, even tougher) Let's keep some friends Cyrus and Monty. That gives us an avenue to keep trading techs. We miss this great trait (why I like Freddy) so we have to compensate by trading. Monty could be our dog if JC starts to bother us. So perhaps improving relations with him and try to find out where he came from. I did look around as to how we met and the strangest thing I couldn't find anything. My gut feeling is the workboat scout. That would be east of Cyrus in the high latitudes.

Trading resources helps but he either doesn't want anything or is unable to. Like NamliaM said he must be alone somewhere as he doesn't have religion. Perhaps trying to trade maps might help that. Maybe buy Monty's map from him. hahaha with what right? For a tech....mmmmmm we need techs too bad. Having Monty as a pet dog would slow JC down in the event of a war. I say let's just be somewhat prepared because of cost, and proceed to attack Karakorum we need those elephants which compensates for the lack of horses.

My shortlist:
1. Find out where Monty is? get map
2. Make friends with him we need a pet dog. RUFF RUFF the kind that bites.
3. Get friendly with Cyrus, he will prove to be a great trading partner and might gift more.
4. Protection, but that just me I just don't like that iffy kind of approach to offense leaving home cities with 1 warrior. My god a barb axe could take it. At least 2 archers.
5. Courthouses, paramount 26 maintenance -9 in Besh iirc or one of the cities.
6. Get Besh working for us in GP's. It will save our bacon....(mmmmm Canadian Bacon) ergo needing lit soon. GP for CS (crucial)
7. Karakorum first military target, will be great for our Empire.

Not worry about science too much after mono/COL. Get army ready. Protect critical resources also especially plantation/gold.

Try if we can.... blood AI probably won't, but feudalism will be a great help too maybe in a trade. yeh right..... Eektor didn't get much in that trade and it's all the AI will give sometimes. Here Cyrus was the most generous. He is cautious with JC that might work to our advantage. We could always get Cyrus to go to war against JC. It won't take much to get Cyrus friendly and he is strong enough. I've seen immortals running around too.

Cities are growing nicely and with some spread (especially Paris) would make a huge difference overall. It's what was killing us in the first place and we need to continue to grow in pop. Then we could build BM (science too) in Paris for quick missionaries. I don't know what the next level of GP is (how many points) but the sooner and we will have most of CS.

CS is critical to our survival and we should think about Metal casting/Machinery next (after mono/COL). We are going to need those macemen. Currency too of course. But can't we earn money by razing a few cities, pillaging?

I am a builder/warmonger/politician but more warmonger. I do tend to wait until I have a "overkill" force. On emperor I have to unlearn that. Promotions are the key. KK's counter attack last time was weak. I expected more from him.

We should strike soon, try for some more extortion but a 2nd peace mmmm. Get some coin/techs. If and when we get CS I would be reluctant to trade it if JC doesn't have it. Even Cyrus since he might still be trading techs with JC. Maybe on emperor that won't help.

Shortlist of techs (ones we should try to get in trade if we can)

1. Literature (only JC has it iirc)
2. Metal Casting
3. Monarchy (1 most likely to trade)
4. Currency
5. Feudalism???

I know we are a long way off but the UU is it any good???
I personally love the cossacks/panzers, redcoats great defenders and good on offense but I hate that one tile at a time crap. Give me horses/tanks and move like the wind.

General Greyfox Patton...........we await your exemplary gameplay.....

GreyFox · Jun 21, 2006

Heh, nice plan, but all this hinges on whether Monty like Cyrus or not. Since cyrus founded buddhism, unless buddhism spread to Monty, Monty will HATE Cyrus, and HATE us for trading with Cyrus.

--

UU is Musketeers, they are very useful in that they can use enemy roads (like commandoes).

--

GreyFox · Jun 21, 2006

Did quite a bit of micromanaging to maximize our research ... basically is to find the optimum science rate. The idea is to get those cities with library produce raw number of beakers that is multiple of 4.

As a reward to my effort, we were claimed to be not the poorest civ.

Ha, this Gibbon guy had made my day! We beat Cyrus, the score+tech leader!!!

I have also decided to take the barb city. Why give a city to JC? We are in no position to train a settle rin time to replace the barb city, so I am capturing and keeping it ...

Guess what? the Swordsman who has 73% chances lost :aargh:

Barb-Terminator said:
Swordsman promoted: City Raider I
While attacking, Swordsman loses to: Barbarian Archer (0.24/3)
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
While attacking, Axeman defeats (2.30/5): Barbarian Archer
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
While attacking, Axeman defeats (3.20/5): Barbarian Archer
While attacking, Spearman defeats (4.00/4): Barbarian Archer
Captured Cuman (Barbarian)

As for research, our plan proceed alright, we got the GP, we got construction, and we got Monothesim, and used the GP to learn us Theology. I made a :smoke:

though, I did not immediately trade construction with Monty, thinking to delay until theology is learnt and trade together. However, by then, Monty is no longer willing to offer tech for construction (and he don't want theology :crazyeye:

)

Got Monarchy from JC:

and Currency from Cyrus:

Didn't even try KK .....

By the way, JC planted a second city ... most likely he is going for the whales ...

End of turn:

--

Some notes:

- CoL is coming in next turn, trade it wisely. We want Metal Casting to get forges.

- First wine connected, once 2nd wine connected, consider trading it for gold or other happy resources. But check the relationship screen first!

- Signed open borders with Monty.

- Employed scientists in Besh.

- we are still not in a position to declare war, even though I have built some cats. I think KK may already have LB, so it might be difficult ... but given enough cats, LB will fall to a simple axeman too.

Spoiler autolog :

>>>> The Save (1000AD) <<<<

Cosmichail · Jun 21, 2006

The idea is to get those cities with library produce raw number of beakers that is multiple of 4.

This is interesting will consider that as I always thought it sucked building a library when we only have 1 beaker in city.

Besh will have a GP/GS in 20 some odd turns. Likely to be a GS so will he offer CS? He is more likely to offer Philosophy isn't he. So a GP would be nice for CS. Sorry to harp on this but Lit would be nice for National Epic. 16 gp points would be a real help.

Good turnset Greyfox, So we will have COL in 1 turn nice.... and have now Monarchy/Currency even better. What's wrong with Monty miserable *&*&^.

Oh Greyfox are you no longer the lucky one losing that sword. Don't you hate when that happens especially against barbs.

Cosmichail · Jun 21, 2006

Roster
-- GreyFox == finished 3rd == his luck ran out..
-- namliaM == UP == negotiator/judge and jury
-- armstrong == on deck == GPaminator
-- eektor == skip-- OoP: 2006.06.21~30
-- Cosmichail == Upset Stanley Cup not in Canada again

VQ06b - Emperor just win!

Dark Lord of The Sith

Make it so ...

Prince

Deity

Prince

Dark Lord of The Sith

Prince

Dark Lord of The Sith

Prince

Prince

crossing the i's

Dark Lord of The Sith

Make it so ...

Deity

Prince

Dark Lord of The Sith

Make it so ...

Make it so ...

Dark Lord of The Sith

Dark Lord of The Sith

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