V's SubMod

[raystuttgart]

@Mr. ZorG

Basically we generally fully agree.
(Maybe you misread some of my explanations due to issues in Russian-English translations.)

• There are some changes in the Sub-mod that I like and others that you like.
• There are other changes in the Sub-Mod that I do not like and others that you do not like.
• All the rest of the team and community surely has their own preferences as well.

Summary:

The mod as it is can not simply get fully integrated as "one piece" into WTP core mod.
Some parts of it however might get integrated selectively into WTP core mod.

If there is interest by @Vaeringjar , community and the team, we need to go through the effort to discuss and figure out which parts should make it into WTP core mod and which parts can not.
(Considering the amount of changes this will take a while however ...)

-------

I was asked for a tool for a test, not to mindlessly integrate a sub-mod into the LR.

Such a "tool to test" does not exist and can technically not be implemented.
(You cannot simply copy and paste the XML files and graphical into Large Rivers and compile the DLL again. This is not how modding works.)

"V's Sub Mod" is currently simply incompatible with code and XML Schema of Large Rivers .
It first need to be made compatible again, by carefully merging V's changes into Large Rivers which would take an experienced modder (understanding XML schema) about 3 hours.

This directly leads to the following:

1. At least 3 hours of effort for an experienced modder to carefully merge V's Sub Mod and Large Rivers.
2. Creating a new branch of Large Rivers (that will later be thrown away because the changes have not been approved yet and some never will).

Summary:

You are basically asking one of the experienced team members to invest at least 3 hours of effort
to create a test version of Large Rivers in a new branch for you that will later be thrown away again.

Sounds like wasted effort that could be invested better otherwise.

 

[Mr. ZorG]

@Mr. ZorG

Basically we generally fully agree.
(Maybe you misread some of my explanations due to issues in Russian-English translations.)

• There are some changes in the Sub-mod that I like and others that you like.
• There are other changes in the Sub-Mod that I do not like and others that you do not like.
• All the rest of the team and community surely has their own preferences as well.

Summary:

The mod as it is can not simply get fully integrated as "one piece" into WTP core mod.
Some parts of it however might get integrated selectively into WTP core mod.

If there is interest by @Vaeringjar , community and the team, we need to go through the effort to discuss and figure out which parts should make it into WTP core mod and which parts can not.
(Considering the amount of changes this will take a while however ...)

maybe yes, translation difficulties)
the main thing is that we both understand what needs to be discussed before doing.

1. At least 3 hours of effort for an experienced modder to carefully merge V's Sub Mod and Large Rivers.
2. Creating a new branch of Large Rivers (that will later be thrown away because the changes have not been approved yet and some never will).

I didn't know that. but it is excusable - I'm not a programmer)

I liked the graphics of the ships. the sizes of the ships began to correspond to each other. The caravel is not nearly the size of a Galleon))

it remains to decide what we like and what we don't...

 

[CurtnoAnna]

I am using the sub mod, a couple of months now. I really enjoy it and the high prices don't bother me. It takes me longer to buy a galleon so my treasures stock up for several turns before I am able to transport them. That is preventing me from getting to rich to soon.

I have read that the mod will not be "used well" by the AI. That does concerns me because I would see that as a "cheat" in my favour.

 

[Ramstormp]

I have downloaded the submod, but have never gotten in the mood to actually try it out. I think I like the promotion changes.

 

[raystuttgart]

@Vaeringjar

I have a new question.
It is about gameplay balancing of the Nations.

In Single Player it does not really matter if Nations are imbalanced considering power. But in Multiplayer it does matter.
All Nations should be equally interesting and powerful, even if that is achieve asymetrically which is often much more interesting.

I see that you gave the following Nations nation specific Ships:
France, England, Portugal and Spain

What about the other 4? (Russia, Sweden, Denmark and Netherlands)
Did they get any nation specific Unit at all? Did they get something else?
Or did you simply forget them?

By the way:
I have a concept for nation specific Units and Buildings myself.
(Thus I am interested to know other peoples ideas.)

 

[raystuttgart]

@Community:

I checked the current Promotions for Ships in WTP.
And I must admit they are absolutely badly and pointlessly balanced.
(An dramatic overhaul is long due ...)

1. Some Promotions only give Combat Bonusses against certain Type of Combat Ships and totally neglect other Combat Ships
2. Other Promotions are totally overpowered. (e.g. Great Explorer - well ok it is the absolut "Top Tier" but Admirals are not as rare as some might think)
3. Again other Promotions have almost no value (e.g. Bonusses against Sea Animals or mini-bonusses to fight in Winds and Storms)
4. Other Promotions totally neglect their bonusses by also adding a Malus, thus making the Promotion worthless (+1 Cargo is not really a good exchange if you also get -1 Movement)
...

Almost half of the Ship Promotions currently in WTP have almost no gameplay value and players will normally never take them.
(They will always stick to the other Promotions that have value.)

-----------

@Vaeringjar

Your new system seems to be more promissing.
It is definitely better than what we have at the moment.

I will thus use parts of your system as a base to recreate WTP Ship Promotion System.
To my opinion a 100% rebuild / overhaul from scratch is simply the most efficient and best solution .

Once I finished my suggestion / overhaul I will introduce it to community.
(If I take the time to explain all the changes I intend ahead of time, I will need too much time for it.)

-----------

@team:

Just a few basic infos.

1. I will introduce 2 completely new Ship Combat Types:
(This will allow me to balance these ships specifically.)

• Coastal Ships
• Fishing and Whaling

2. I will introduce a few new XML tags and according DLL functionality for Promotions as well.
(The changes will not be dramatic but just so you know that it will not simply be XML only.)

• gather Boats being able to gather faster
• shortening "travel time" (to Europe / Africa / Port Royal) for Merchant Ships
• higher chances of capturing enemy ships for Combat Ships / Pirates
  
• ...

-----------

@Schmiddie

I will contact you if I need buttons but at the moment I believe that I can mostly reuse buttons from "worthless Promotions".
(e.g. Mobility 1 & Mobility 2 will become the Promotions that shorten the "travel time")

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
1. Some Promotions only give Combat Bonusses against certain Type of Combat Ships and totally neglect other Combat Ships

That in itself is not bad. Instead of having ships that become more powerful with the next ship available/the next expensive ship - which means that the lower tier ships become obsolete as they are practically defenceless against highre ships, it would be in part like Stone - Paper - Scissors.
I like for example that some ships (Corvettes?) are practically specialized "Pirate-Hunters" and have advantages in that range and due to lower price, but could not stand against other ships of war of a higher level.

3. Again other Promotions have almost no value (e.g. Bonusses against Sea Animals or mini-bonusses to fight in Winds and Storms)

Please do not remove the promotion that grants a bonus vs. sea animals. While it makes only little sense to take for combat ships (unless you really want to cash in on sea animals at the start of the game) it does make a lot of sense to have that promotion for fishing boats and moreso for whaling boats to give them more resilience against sea animal attacks without raising their general power so that they are still weak against pirates and enemy ships. In some of my games (on the patch before the current patch) I lost either a fishing boat or a whaling boat every turn to sea animal attacks.

4. Other Promotions totally neglect their bonusses by also adding a Malus, thus making the Promotion worthless (+1 Cargo is not really a good exchange if you also get -1 Movement)

Not necessarily. The game currently offers three deliberately distinct promotion trees for pirates, merchant ships and warships and as far as I see it, not every single promotion is balanced in itself, but on the promotion path as a whole that can be gained.

It does make sense that a ship carrying more cargo than it was originally designed for, becomes slower. It even makes sense on the "pirate path" that privateers become "slower" as a representation that they can´t use every ports anymore to restock and are sought out so their movement is hindered.

Almost half of the Ship Promotions currently in WTP have almost no gameplay value and players will normally never take them.
(They will always stick to the other Promotions that have value.)

Just as with the superfast scout that takes only promotions that raise speed or lower movement cost.

• shortening "travel time" (to Europe / Africa / Port Royal) for Merchant Ships

Do we not need every ship to be at least several turns on the map sailing towards Europe/Africa/Port Royal, so that enemies, pirates or even sea animals are able to attack it? Shortening the travel time in addition to promotions that raise speed or lower movement cost makes merchants hard to catch when they should be the slow, clumsy, heavily loaden ships...
[Francis Drake watching the spanish treasure fleet with his spyglass]Make ready guys, they will be in range of our cannons soon. 1, 2, 3... fi-... forget it they just fasttravelled to Cadiz.[/Francis Drake never become nobility]

 

[raystuttgart]

Shortening the travel time in addition to promotions that raise speed or lower movement cost makes merchants hard to catch ...

I am not sure that I understand what you are talking about?

Ships in "Europe Travel Mode" (Traveling between Europe and Colonies) are practically invincible since they are not on the map.
Shortening the Travel Time of a single ship that gets this Promotion by e.g. 1 turn has absolutely no effect on its chances of being caught by Privateers on the map.
Only "Travel Speed" on the map influences the chances of being caught by Privateers as Merchants can then run away easier to Europe to set sails (enter "Europe Travel Mode).

---

I will introduce my new "Naval Promotion System" to public once it is fully implemented.
Since I will not do a small change but a 100% rebuild from scratch everything else will take too long.

Since I can only sit on my PC a few hours a day I should spend them modding instead of writing long explanations and having discussions for days and weeks before even starting to work.
But do not wory and have a little trust the current system is so bad, I can only make it better.

---

By the way:

We are hijacking the thread of @Vaeringjar.
This thread should stay reserved for his mod-mod.

Just wanted to inform him that I am going to reuse parts of his work as a base to build the new system.
His version is definitely a better and more systematically designed starting point as the current situation in WTP ...

 

[CurtnoAnna]

Will this mod work in 3.01 if I use a map that does not generate rivers, such as Fairweathers maps?? If I don't get a response then I may try it.

 

[raystuttgart]

Will this mod work in 3.01 ...

I have no idea.

This mod-mod is not our responsibility.
(We do not consider it in our work, we do not play or test with it.)

Either ask @Vaeringjar or just try it.

 

[Nightinggale]

Either ask @Vaeringjar or just try it.

Last post is from February. Odds are that this modmod is dead and not updated to match 3.0.1. There is nothing we can do about that.

 

[raystuttgart]

Odds are that this modmod is dead ...

To be honest, I have never ever seen a modmod that survived more than 2 major feature releases of RaR / WTP.
(The effort to continuously update and maintain a modmod for a mod that is as heavily changing as RaR was / WTP still is is not realistic.)

Experience shows that only these alternatives are realistic for small modmods:
(For any core mod being as heavily continuously developed as WTP still is.)

1. The modmod becomes a full mod of its own - starting a new project and team. (Just sharing common features.)
2. The modmod becomes integrated in the mother mod. (Thus of course being abandoned.)
3. The modmod simply gets abandoned and dies. (Because effort to maintain at some point gets too much.)

----

Sadly in most cases the success of the new releases of the WTP mother mod, will be the death of the WTP sub mods at some point.
(Unless the WTP sub mods keep pace with the development speed and quality of the WTP core mod.)

 

[modmod]

1. The modmod becomes a full mod of its own - starting a new project and team. (Just sharing common features.)
2. The modmod becomes integrated in the mother mod. (Thus of course being abandoned.)
3. The modmod simply gets abandoned and dies. (Because effort to maintain at some point gets too much.)

4. The modmod skips several releases in the mainmod. Like from 20 updates/ releases compatible just with 2.
As it too much work to integrate/ update it continuously.

 

[raystuttgart]

4. The modmod skips several releases in the mainmod.

For me and most players this is just the same as "the modmod gets abandoned" and later a "new modmod is started".
(For several releases nobody can play it.)

By the way I am talking about actually published modmods, not private adjustments like almost all players do.
(For the community only published modmods really add gameplay value.)

As it too much work to integrate/ update it continuously.

That is exactly the point.

Small modmods usually do not survive long if the much bigger mother project is still in development.
A small "1 man modmod" simply can not keep pace with a "team mother mod" (of often also more experienced modders) ...

 

[Mr. ZorG]

if the next release is not as fast as 3.0, I plan to make my own modmod based on this modmod.
but so far I have very little free time.

 

[Elirector]

if the next release is not as fast as 3.0, I plan to make my own modmod based on this modmod.
but so far I have very little free time.

with ships overhaul, I guess?

 

[Mr. ZorG]

yes, I plan it.

 

[CptBadger]

As slightly obsessed with naval history as I am, there will never be enough variations of ships to satisfy me. Lol too much variety. I do like the pirate-ships-are-not-a-standardized-class part. I couldn't quite tell, does that mean one could convert essentially any ship with materials and money to fly the black flag? Could be quite a cool detail. Convert a sloop to slide upriver and wreak havoc on river shipping. Risky, of course.... a single warship at the mouth means no escape

 

[ConjurerDragon]

As slightly obsessed with naval history as I am, there will never be enough variations of ships to satisfy me. Lol too much variety. I do like the pirate-ships-are-not-a-standardized-class part. I couldn't quite tell, does that mean one could convert essentially any ship with materials and money to fly the black flag? Could be quite a cool detail. Convert a sloop to slide upriver and wreak havoc on river shipping. Risky, of course.... a single warship at the mouth means no escape

You could just create cities to harbour-hop from the river or lake over dry land to the sea...

 

[CptBadger]

Thats a lot of creating cities, assuming land isn't already held, for the chance to stir up mischief upriver. Some rivers don't connect to lakes, other rivers, etc. And if they've already developed around the river, and there's only one way in or out, is is quite a risk.

Also assumes that AI is relying too heavily on coastal boats for inland colonies. If they have sufficient land transport, you'll be a minor annoyance at best, and almost definitely won't earn enough to recup investment.