VS1-Agression

[akots]

Originally posted by Commander Bello
... and Longbowmen...

Have not built a single LB so far in Civ3 (and very few archers). Are they good for something? We have iron atm, building LB is a huge waste IMO. Knight is a decent upgradeable unit and cavalry rules! Especially with arty! Sorry, I'm posting too much bs sometimes.

It's andvruss turns and we'll know soon how it turns out. Just have to be patient.

 

[gormdragan]

My opinion on army Types

From my understanding of Civ AI, it is all about probability. AI's willingness to attack an army or not solely depends on the calculated probability for success.Therefore, I don't think enemy knights will hesitate to attack our horse army, especially if it is injured. As mentioned by GK, if we need to have a defensive unit following the army, it's mobility advantage is totally lost. As a player who is insanely particular about mobility (my obession for the chinese riders), it is my opinion that a combined arms unit (in our case, catapults, numecs, swords and horse) is only as fast as its slowest unit. The mobility of the horse army is totally negated if our other forces cannot keep up with it. One horse army, for all it's worth, is not able to take out city, and may even have trouble trying to take out a pike or knight (defence of 3). Therefore, it does not strike me that there is an obvious use for it. In combined arms tactics, each type of units provide a unique role.

Catapults - our main offensive unit

Horsemen - to attack an enemy and still have 1 more movement to return to the numec army.

Swords - to attack with better efficiency on enemy squares that has more than 1 unit (and therefore, does not move off our stack).

Numec Army - is the most important unit of the stack. It creates the stability in the stack.

The purpose of the Numec army is not for its mobility, but for its protection. The more numec armies we have, the more spread-out our offence can be, with each Numec army dictating its own stack. The Numec army has the added advantage of forcing AI units to move in the way we want them to. If AI needs to go pass city A to reach city B, and we garrison our Numec army at city A and nothing in B. AI will actually expose itself within our borders trying to go for the easy kill (city B). This allows us to pick off the enemy units with our catapults and swords/horse combo.

To be honest, I feel alot safer if my stack is hiding until a numec army, than 3 numecs (3def vs knight/samurai's 4 attack).

Basically, making an army out of mobile troops does not improve mobility. Instead, it actually reduces the mobility. What is gained from 1 extra movement cannot offset the advantage of the ability to make 3-4 units move in separate directions. It is unfair to compare the mobility of a horse army to a single horse. It should be compared with the mobility of 4 separate horse. Mobility should not be viewed as the simple defination of number of movement. Mobility is actually flexibility.

The short of it, I feel we do not need an extra horse army, I don't even think we should have had the one we have, but we could use more Numec armies, 2 numec armies to run 2 battlegroups and 1 numec for defence.


My opinion on technologies

Chivalry is not a dead-end tech that we should skip. While we are not the most advance civ, it is to my understanding (at least up to end of my turns) that there are civs which have comparable or worse tech level as us. These are trading partners. At 4/3/2, and after reading your opinion of horse army, I fail to see how we should skip chivalry. Knights make us combat-potent until arrival of rifleman, which is a long way. Until then, knights stand a chance against any other unit, toughest being samurais and muskets. If we want to skip knights, we should do MI and not longb.

Do we need feudalism now? If not, I will continue the war with americans until they give us both (feudalism+theology). If you are worried about open space, we should start piling up on settlers. Also, I think we have pushed our offence in the wrong direction. If we take the coastal american cities, there is a lower chance AI will take those squares before us. Also, the coastal cities do not need defenders as urgently.

Personally, the arrival of swords is sufficient edge to fight knights (with catapults of course).

My opinion on improvements

what kind of improvements are talking about? With no new techs, the only improvements we can build are rax, lib, temple, colossuem, aquaduct, market, harbor and granary.

Rax is optional (since some of our cities can build catapults).

lib, temple and colosseum does not improve the city other than reduce cultural pressure. This is not really applicable for core cities which are not under cultural pressure. With 3 native lux and marketplace (although I am aware the overall culture value improves resistance against flips). We should be able to keep a size 9-11 city happy without much of a problem.

Aquaduct is valid only if we are near size 6. Don't build an aquaduct until you are sure the city is going to grow above 7. Under size 6, aquaduct serves no purpose at all.

Harbor are needed only for cities where we intend to work water squares. Worked land squares are always better, except if you have a bonus water square.

Granary is useful but needs to be reviewed case by case.

Market is the only totally useful improvement.

Remember improvements cost maintence too. I would stick to making more units, more units, more units, in the order of catapults, swords, numecs and horse.

 

[Gengis Khan]

 

[Commander Bello]

From bad experience I learned that sometimes I miss the right tone. So, please, don't take anything in my comment personal. It is just meant as a contribution to an open discussion about how to move on.

Our military
... is weak. Period.

We have inferior units, as we all know about and seem to agree upon.
While our opponents confront us with Medieval Infantry and Knights, we can present Swordmen and Horsemen.

We have to cover the weakness of our troops by superior use.

I agree upon the fact that a stack of Catapults, defended by our NumMerc armies has a good chance to get near the target cities and to bombard the defending garrisons to redlined.
Now, what's going to happen, once this was accomplished? We want to get that city. Let's assume that there are three redlined defenders in that city, so we need at least three attackers to get in. There is still a chance that we will need four of them, since even a redlined Pikeman still has quite a chance against a veteran Horseman. Against a veteran Swordman, chances are less, but we have just two Swordmen at the moment.
So, our attackers have to join the combined defender/catapult group at that enemy city, thus considerable limiting their tactical freedom to strive around.

Now, if we are using horses for attack, due to their weak inherent defense - and their limited range, as well - they are just not able to strive the enemy territory. In principle they are doomed to walk under the protective umbrella of the defensive army, as the Cats are doing. Except for quicker catch-up -coming from our home towns- with the walking armies, this makes single horses already almost useless for anything else.

If we have horse armies, they gain an additional movement point, making them the fastest units/groups available at the moment. They are able to outrace any other current unit, we know about.
Furthermore, they may do pillaging somewhere in the enemy territory without loosing a movement point to it. By pillaging, they can successfully limit the opponent's chance to put good defensive units into the target city - and still are quick enough to join the slow marching main force at the city's gates, to finally take the city.
Since they get the army bonusses, we now have some kind of uber-unit with at least 16 hp and an attack of 2*0.25 and blitz capability.
That way, there is a considerable chance to get that city, and to have done strategic pillaging before!

Above statements should show already, that offensive armies built of Horsemen don't limit the mobility, but enhance it.

Basically, making an army out of mobile troops does not improve mobility. Instead, it actually reduces the mobility.

We cannot make good use of the four independant units, since they would be dead meat in enemy territory. But, we can make use of them, if they would be combined in an army.

Ok, we got the said city. Until now, we razed it all the time.
Until now, this was quite ok, since we got some slaves and were able to make use of the space by dropping our settlers there.
I see this tactics change in the future, at least to a certain degree. Some of the cities we are going to conquer in the future are quite worth to be kept - due to present wonders, due to the location and so on. As an example for this, please have a look at Entremont.
If we would get it, razing would be the wrong move, as I see it.

This means that we would have to put in defenders in that city.
Further creation of defensive armies would limit our capability of making use of defensive units for garrison.

but we could use more Numec armies, 2 numec armies to run 2 battlegroups and 1 numec for defence.

We already have the 2 NumMerc armies for the battle groups and that's quite fine with me. What doesn't come clear to me is what the mentioned 3rd defensive army shall do? Where should it defend?
Obviously, it could do so just in the town, just conquered. But there, it would be a sitting duck. We would loose - except for the (admitted) better defense - it's tactical capabilities.

 

[Commander Bello]

Technologies

Chivalry is a dead-end technology, since it leads to no other tech.
It would give us a good offensive unit, though.

But, we have to keep in mind, that we don't have it yet, that we even don't have the necessary pre-condition for it, yet.
And even, if we would gain it rather soon, we have to keep in mind that the Knight has costs of 70 shields. At the current moment, we have just 1 city which would be capable of building Knights in less than 7 turns. And just 1 other city with a net production of 10 shields (as far as I remember). So, Knights would last long to be built - or would consume quite a portion of our treasury to be upgraded. But we need our money to rush temples in the borderline cities, as we've learned.

This already leads us to having a view at:

The improvements

lib, temple and colosseum does not improve the city other than reduce cultural pressure. This is not really applicable for core cities which are not under cultural pressure.

They do. Temples and cols are setting defensive units free to be used at the borderline. Libraries gain us some research.
The extend our borders, as well - thus giving us access to better tiles (have a look at Nora).

Some cities (as Leptis Magna) have the potential to pass the size 6 limit, but are not located next to fresh water. For those cities, we need the aqueduct.

Being under monarchic rule and having 3 native luxuries, we can make a max of 7 unhappy citizens content (eliminate the effect of their unhappiness, that is).
So, our city size is limited to 8 (7 citizens with no unhappiness effects and the 1 born content under Demigod rules)
If they would have an average production of 2 shields, this would make them produce a Knight in 5 turns at the best.
But we have to take into consideration that we will meet stronger opponents in the future than the Americans have proven to be. The American campaign was an easy one.
If we would have to face the Japs with their Samurais and their Pikes, or if we would have to face the Vikings with their Berserks, we would face dramatic losses.
So, we already know that we will have to replace lost units in the future - really soon!
We just have to have at least some good production sites - everything else won't get us any further.

Speaking about the Vikings remembers me that our so-called core is still very weak. Our best cities are located at the sea shore and are defended by just some warriors or a horse. Any Viking attack would be lethal to us.

We have to dramatically increase the output of good units.
Good units are shield-expensive, though. And they are needed everywhere, at our core, at the borders, at vital locations being in reach of an enemy attack.

Remember improvements cost maintence too.

Agreed. But units cost upkeep, as well. We are already spending around 50 bucks per turn for our military. Any new unit will cost us money, as well.
So, again we are feeling the need to increase output:
of gold, of shields, of units.

Please don't forget that there are five city locations to be filled with cities of our own - and that is just for the moment. More locations - hopefully - will show up as we expand further. All these cities have to be protected, both in regards to military as well as in regards to cultur.

Output is a function of city size, though.

At the bottom line:
Our cities have to be culturally save and big, for production's sake. Both can be accomplished only with improvements.
This doesn't mean that everything has to go into city improvements, now. But it does mean, that we are not allowed to forget about improvements for vital cities, either.

Two Euo-Cents from "old Europe"

 

[andvruss]

Check sig for problems, when home comp fixed, will be able to play again (writing from school comp).

 

[Commander Bello]

That's a pity, andvruss. :-\)

Who's next?

Should be akots or GK, right?

 

[Gengis Khan]

Got it, I'll try to get it played & up before the forums go down.

 

[Commander Bello]

Anyone still around here?

 

[akots]

I'm around. But we better wait. Two skips in a row just too much. May be Andvruss fixes his comp or GK shows up.

 

[Gengis Khan]

Sorry guys, got called into work today when I was suppose to be off & was planning on playing. Will get it played & up ASAP.

 

[Commander Bello]

I will be off till Saturday, 15th of May, appr. 12:00 GMT+1.
So, if it would be up to me in that time, please skip me and put me on the roster again at the weekend.

 

[gormdragan]

I am away in San Francisco, from Friday till Monday.

 

[Commander Bello]

I'm back.... who's up?

 

[Gengis Khan]

I'm actually playing as we speak. Sorry again, this is the first time all week I've had a chunk of time & been able to play.

 

[Commander Bello]

Fine, then ...... go go go! :-D

 

[Gengis Khan]

Flight Check: We’re at war with America, Inca, Iroquois, Russia, Hittites, & Babylon. Not too shabby.
Our unit cost is killing us: 2 settlers, 7 workers, 17 warriors, 2 archers, 2 swords, 14 horses, 20 cats, 16 numids, & 4 armies(1 still open). Not much I can do about this with us just getting iron online & not having Fued or Chiv.

Change all cities that don’t have a market in them yet to markets(with the exception of the ones building temples). I can make due with the troops we have and we need some cash for horse-knight upgrades.

Abe will give us either Eng or Theo but not Fued. I’m going to raze a city or two till we can get 2 of them.

MM a few cities.

Turn off min research on Fued, saving us 12gpt.

IT- Russia declares war on Japan.
I’m not sure if everyone knows how backwards in techs we are, but the Incans own Copernicus & everyone is starting Bach’s.

T1- Trade wines to Biz for 17gpt, some troop movement & MMing.
We can get Engineering from Port for iron & furs, but I want to see how Abe pans out first.

IT- Hittites declare war on Japan.
Lose a sword to archer counter attack.

T2- After much bombardment, horseman army takes out 2 spears & a pike losing only 6hp.
Numid army then takes out a longbow & razes Washington. (I checked F7 first to make sure there was no wonders, but I’m NOT losing a Numid army to a CF)
Abe is doubtful he’ll give us Fued & Theo. Well, we’ll just see what he says after I raze another city.
Rush a settler, and switch another city to a settler to grab up some of the free land.
Trade Portugal Furs & Iron for Engineering & 6g. (Abe’s land is filled with rivers & I’m getting tired of not having bridges)
Found Malaca.
Take out a longbow, then stick 4 horses, a Nunid Army & 17 cats next to the new American capitol, York.

IT- Portugal tries to get us to ally against Japan. No thank you.
Portugal & Japan sign a peace treaty. Ummm ok.

T3- Is it just me or do catapults do really well up until that second you’re able to upgrade them to Trebs? Our cats strike out bombing York.

IT- Portugal & Spain sign MA against Scandinavia, what a war torn world we live in.
Iroquois declare war on Japan.
Maya declares war on Japan.
Aww @#$%! Germany & Iroquois sign an alliance against us.
Lose a horse to an attacking sword, he’s redlined though.
Iroquois want peace for 200g right after getting a neighbor at war with us. I don’t think so!
Greece declares war on Japan.
Iroquois land a Med Inf next to our capitol.

T4- Take out the Med Inf, -2hp to a sword.
Our cats finally work, completely redline the American musket, 2 pikes & spear.
We take them all out, troops are wounded but no losses. Raze York gaining us a treb & 4 slaves.
The cheapest we can get Fued for is from Greece for 93gpt & 505g. The cheapest we can get Theo is 46gpt & 505g. We can get both from Abe for about 40gpt, normally I’d keep fighting him but we’re not going to get much more of a discount & I want to bring our troops against the German threat.
Agree to peace with Abe & 42gpt for Fued and Theology. (we’re still making 53gpt. Not great, but you gotta play with the hand you’re dealt)
Sell Abe horses for 15gpt & 12g.
Sell Port Theo for Chiv & 29g.
Sell Celts Engineering for 8gpt & 58g.
Turn forces around towards isolated German cities.
Rush barracks Saldae so we have a city on the front where our troops can heal.
Hittites are in Anarchy, I’m guessing Demo just hit the scene.

IT- Lose a Numid to the Germans, redline an archer though.
Greece demands 41g, we cave.
Hittites & Celts sign peace.
Iroquise & Celts sign peace.

T5- Elite horse retreats to redlined spear.
Horse takes him out.
Horse army takes out spear in Chicago(now German), set to raze it next turn.

IT- Celts & Incans sign an alliance against us. Will it ever freaking end?!

T6- Well the good news is we didn’t bust any trades when the Celts stabbed us in the back. The bad news is that we’re out 400g from him breaking his deal & that front is very poorly defended. Good thing he doesn’t have Feudalism, I’ll scrap together a force to take them out once & for all over the next couple turns..
Horse army takes out 2 spears in Chicago. We raze the place & get 4 slaves.(former American city with a lot of culture)
Take out some German Swords.
Found Gades.

IT- Izzy joins the crowd & decides to extort 27g from us.
Ragnar hops on the bandwagon. Down another 26g.
We get the greatest pop up ever……………… Our people want the Forbidden Palace.[dance]

T7- Not much, kill a couple Germans & send troops back to heal.

IT- Portugal & Spain sign MA against Celts.
Portugal & Russia sign MA against us. @#$%!
Portugal declares war on us.
Byzantine & Japan sign peace treaty.

T8- This is so not right, we’re at war with the Celts, Germans, & Portugal. All of them border our cities.
Buy peace from Hittites for Currency.
Sell the furs that we no longer owe to Portugal to Spain for 7gpt & 140g.
Take out German Longbow, -1hp and …………………….

Looks like we have a FP, just gotta pick a spot.

I’m loading up our empty army with Med Infs and sending it against the Celts. So he’ll open up some free land to the west.


What do you guys think on FP location & should we consider moving the palace? Here's our empire..........

I’m thinking FP in Saldae to increase OCN right now(not to mention once things calm down it will be a very productive city), then with our next leader we can move the palace to Sabratha to give us a more centralized core in the North with the land that’s about to open up when we take out the Celts.

I’m going to wait up with my last 2 turns for an hour or two to get some feedback before finishing up.

 

[akots]

Wow, I think your drastically overestimating the AI tech pace. ...

I can dig a couple more similar statements out of our polemics. Now, listen, do what you want and how you want. But I have several things to suggest:

If you have not build the MDI army, do not. Please try to upgrade some horses to knight and load them in the army. Sell whatever you have or can but this might be our best hope to turn the game in our favor at its present state.

FP is not needed at present to boost the OCN bonus since we have not reached the OCN yet. The FP-OCN bonus starts to be really important only when the number of cities exceeds the OCN. We are now and OCN/2 and its a long way to OCN. However, Saldae is a good location in general though slightly far to my preferences. I would build another army with the leader and try to load it with knights.

Edited: We would be better off by building more cities than some expensive markets in our small cities in the core. For me, this is self-evident...

 

[Commander Bello]

Another option might be to rush the FP at either Carthage or Cira, and rushing the Palace later at Saldae or a more suitable location....

 

[Commander Bello]

As you may learn from my previous posting, I just have browsed through your report, GK.

Seems, that on the military side, you've done well.
What bothers me - please don't take this as a personal confrontation - is the gpt/lux trading. As I am currently not sitting in front of the game, I am not quite sure if we have mutual borders with the ones we have per turn trades going on.
In case we don't, there is a high risk in loosing our trade routes due to other nations wars, isn't it? This would make it almost impossible for us to do trading later on, as far as I see it.
I clearly understand your desire to get us some more money, since we are weak and we need money like hell for unit upgrades, rushing and 17 billion other reasons.
You are the one on the bridge right now, and again, I am not sitting in front of the game, so this is meant only as a remark from memory. Please take it into consideration and do, whatever your judgement will cause you to do...
I agree with the FP rushing, although Akot's comments deserve consideration as well. Nevertheless, as far as I learned from reading, we don't have knights yet ( at least not enough for an army). But, and Akots is right in this, a fast-moving army will serve us better than a slow moving one. On the other hand, if we don't have good troops to be put in an army, we should make use of the leader for hurrying and go fishing for another leader with our military. No need to have a leader sitting around, doing nothing, as far as I see it.

Just my 2 Euro-Cents

[edit] As I learned furthermore, we are now at war with the Celts. I'd think a good idea would be to concentrate on getting Entremont (without razing) and killing the other Celtic city to the west (or trying to manouvre the Japs into it -although this would be less desirable, I'd guess). Entremont should be our main target, as getting it would give us 2 wonders (IIRC) and disallow the Japs to connect their southern city with their main empire. Additionally, Entremont is near our current core, so this would be logical to extend our borders in that direction.
I'm pretty sure that in the near future there will be war with the Japs. So, as long as we are still at peace with them, anything what doesn't bother them too much - and preferrably would weaken them - will be benefitting us. Might there be a chance to get them at war with the bloody Krauts?