W.I.P: The Vietnam War Deluxe

El Justo

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here is my latest - The Vietnam War Deluxe :)

this is one that i had been working on off and on for a while. now, i had tried to create such a scenario a longgggg time ago - long before i was really proficient enough to do so. however, these old versions were riddled w/ errors and quite frankly, they were garbage. anyway, my point is that this is the last of the 're-do's' for my scenarios.

scenario specs:

civs: there's only 2: North Vietnam and South Vietnam w/ the latter enjoying the benefit of autopro'd American units (more on that later)

map: for the first time ever, i'm using a map that i actually made from scratch :) it covers the whole of Viet Nam and also includes chunks of eastern Laos and eastern Cambodia as well as sections of the China Sea.

victory conditions: there's a number of VPs spread over the map. some are on South Vietnamese cities, some along the border areas of the western part of South Vietnam, and others are placed along the area where the Ho Chi Minh Trail existed. in sum, there's approximately 40 VPs for each side (NV & SV) to start out with. the goal will be for the South Vietnam position to hold out and preserve itself by a certain time frame (ie occupy all VPs inside SV, rid the VC/NVA from its border sanctuaries, and amass a certain no. of actual VPs). the NVA/VC position must conquer all of the VPs w/in South Vietnam as well as amass the requisite VP total.

tech tree(s): for the first time ever, i devised 2 seperate tech trees for this scenario. by that i mean that South Vietnam has its own line of techs and North Vietnam has their own as well. this was done w/ the old "era=none" techs (aka 'dummy techs'). each civ has 34 techs each. however, the South Vietnamese line has a tech which would become unlocked around early 1969 and it's called Vietnamization. it basicly obsoletes all of the buildings that autoproduce American units. so if you're the SV position, it'll be in your interests to 'make it happen' before you lose your meal ticket. the NV techs, otoh, are designed to gradually build up it's conventional forces (ie armor) and supplement it's existing force.

city improvements/wonders: this is the bread and butter of the scenario as one of the highlights of this war was the buildup by both the South Vietnamese and the communists. and this is accomplished by requiring nearly all city imp's and wonders to have any needed resource 'within the city radius' in order to build it. now, there's five distinctive resources which will allow for these imp's/wonders: USA (allows for the US wonders which autopro' the ground units), South Vietnam (used to simulate the disparity between the urban and rural areas of South Vietnam - mainly the city imp's available - iow, the rural villages depended on a more 'agricultural' lifestyle while the urban centers of SV were significantly more industrialized), Ho Chi Minh Trail (allows for the construction of the HCM Trail city imp's and wonders - these imp's are much different from the other city imp's and they're essentially a facsimile of the buildup of the VC base areas and their infrastructure during the war), North Vietnam (placed under every city in NV - done so that these mid-grade city imp's aren't built along the HCM Trail), and finally, Vietnamese Communism (a high-end resource much like the USA one - allows for construction of the high-end city imp's which grant nice production bonuses and also are nice targets for American fighter-bombers :))

unit lines: each civ has its own line of units (like i do for all of my scenarios).

South Vietnam's foot unit line includes ARVN Infantry, Regional/Popular Force militia, Marines, Rangers, and Paratroopers (the last 3 are all autopro'd). SV can build M113s but it can not build M41 mbt's (autopro'd). all US foot units (Infantry, Marines, Airborne, and Rangers) are autopro'd as are the mechanized units (M48 mbt's). arty pieces (105's, 155's, and 175's) are all able to be built. all fighter bombers can be built (a slew of them ranging from the f100, the f105, and the f4 w/ different variants of each one [there's a seperate line for the SEAD aircraft, too] filling out the f/b line). the a-1's, and later on the f5's, can be built but the ac130's and ac47's are autopro'd. the uh-1 and ah-1 gunships are also autopro'd (all for the AI's sake). transport helos like the uh1 "slick" and the ch47 chinooks are both buildable and autopro'd (so that the AI is forced to use them but the human player can build as many as he likes). the c130 cargo planes are in their too and can carry some of your light mechanized units. lastly, and definitely not the least, the b52's are autopro'd.

as of right now, i am not including sea units in the scenario simply b/c the US had such a massive superiority in this arena that it'd be like using an anvil to kill an ant :) however, i have a few ideas that i might try out before all is said and done.

the North Vietnamese line of foot units include the NVA Infantry, Viet Cong Infantry, Sappers, and Rocket Infantry (only the NVA Infantry can actually be built - the others are all autopro'd by relevant city imp's or wonders). they also have a few arty pieces (75mm, 120mm, and 130mm iirc). the mechanized units for the NVA are all autopro'd. however, the list is long: t34's, t54's, t55's, type 59's, su76's, jsu122's, btr152's, btr40's, btr50's, btr60's, type63's, and pt76 lt tanks as well as type63 lt tanks. you might be asking: why all of the autoproduction of the mechanized units in this scenario? well, armor did not play much of a role in Vietnam outside of direct fire support and infantry support. as a matter of fact, there were only a handful of instances during the entiore war (before and after direct US participation) where mechanized untis from both sides met on the battlefield. so, keeping w/ historical reality, limiting the scope of mechanized warfare for the scenario seems like the best option. the air unit line for the North Vietnames is sparse compared to the US/SV line. the MiG15, 17, 19, and 21 are all in and autoproduced. the Il28 is on there too but the rate of autoproduction will be few (the NVAF were indeed reported to have been in possession of these aircraft. however, flying them into the teeth of American air defenses was considered suicidal). so, to make up for the lack of actual air units for the North Vietnamese, this position is loaded w/ anti-aircraft artillery and SAMs (37mm, 57, 85, 100 flak and SA2 sam's). and these AA units are cheap (and, so far, the AI has built alot of them!). so beware if you're the SV/US position b/c these air defenses are lethal.

and finally - the obligatory screenies:

vietnam1ql2.jpg

northern portion of South Vietnam (in I Corps) near the DMZ, Route 9 leading to Khe Sanh, and Route 1 along the coastal lowlands

vietnam2by8.jpg

a shot of the mini-map complete w/ terrain features - i must say that i'm rather proud of this map :D

vietnam3tm2.jpg

a shot of the Iron Triangle and Parrot's Beak areas near Saigon.

i'll post more info as i find the time...
 
Now I know why you wanted a MiG-19! :lol:

Lucky you, I now have a pretty good model... ;)
 
nice looking map

El Justo, this will be another great scenario that you give to the Civ-community :thumbsup: But concerning the map, my impression is, that the jungle terrain , especially in combination with irrigation in the neighbourhood, looks much to "squarish".
 
How do you upload screenies
 
I like De Borgs use of coast terrain for the mekong delta and sigon river which makes use of the patrol boats a more integral part of the scenario. Any chance of including that in your scenario El J?

It looks great so far. Having the U.S. as a seperate civ in the old version didn't work well. I like the idea of auto producing them by the south to show the gradual build up of U.S. forces. That should work well.
 
Hi EJ,

good to see you making a NAM scenario. I've made attempts myself, but I bet yours will be MUCH better.

I guess you could use some new terrain, though. ;-)

http://www.furor-normannicus.de/images/kram/civ/nam1.jpg

http://www.furor-normannicus.de/images/kram/civ/nam2.jpg
I must admit that terrain looks a lot cleaner.however for El Justos first attempt at map making was very good and better then most can do and im sure his map tweaking is not final.it comes down to personal taste concerning map terrain which everyones is different. and some advice to El Justo go with what pleases you not what all of us think you should do. im sure whatever you decide will be awesome anyhow.:goodjob:
 
Hi EJ,

good to see you making a NAM scenario. I've made attempts myself, but I bet yours will be MUCH better.

I guess you could use some new terrain, though. ;-)

http://www.furor-normannicus.de/images/kram/civ/nam1.jpg

http://www.furor-normannicus.de/images/kram/civ/nam2.jpg
This is a little off topic I really like your terrain Im just learning to mod and am interested in using your terrain. I dont know to much about map terrain graphics can you point me somewhere where i can get imformation on how to do this i downloaded your terrain graphics but need direction on how to implement this into a mod any help would be welcome.
 
Now I know why you wanted a MiG-19! :lol:

Lucky you, I now have a pretty good model... ;)
yes :lol: that's why :lol: i look forward to seeing the new model :)

as for the total size of the file...it's on the small side actually (for my files' standards that is). it'll be about 40-something MBs zipped up (sans the music folder though). i'm not sure if that is what you were referring to Stormrage :) but that's the size specs.

re the terrain
i'm not sure why it looks 'squarish'. however, the scale of the map may contribute some to the boxiness of a few sections of the tiles (plains against jungle). i dunno...i mean, i cobbled this terrain set together. i guess what i'd really want for would be the hill tiles and grass tiles matching the bright green on the mountain and jungle tiles. i'd also prefer a plains tile that was more 'reddish' in nature as the flatlands of Vietnam are a sort of reddish clay-like dirt. other comments and/or suggestions in this area would be nice though :)

i'm afraid that the scale of the map won't allow for sea unit traversable "river" tiles. i had given that some thought though at one point. but each tile on the map represents (roughly of course) about 20 sq miles. so that poses a problem i think when scaling it w/ the Saigion River and the Mekong. i mean, i'd love to have the patrol boats et als in there. but at this scale, it's not likely.

the autoproduction of the American units is a critical part of the scenario, no doubt. here's the exact layout for the autoproduction of the American units:
I Corps Tactical Zone: autopro's US Rifle Company every 2 turns
II Corps Tactical Zone: autopro's US Rifle Company every 2 turns
III Corps Tactical Zone: autopro's US Rifle Company every 2 turns
IV Corps Tactical Zone: autopro's US Rifle Company every 2 turns
III Marine Amphibious Corps: autopro's USMC Rifle Co. every 3 turns
US Airborne HQ: autopro's US Airborne Rifle Co. every 4 turns
US Special Forces HQ: autopro's US Ranger every 12 turns
also:
ANZAC HQ: autopro's ANZAC Rifle Company every 8 turns
RoK Marines Corps HQ: autopro's S Korean Marine Rifle Co. every 2 turns

and the armor:
ARVN Armor School (M41): autopro's M41 medium tank every 8 turns
ARVN Armor School (M48): autopro's M48 medium tank every 8 turns
Airborne Assault Tactics (M551): autopro's M551 anti-tank every 8 turns
ANZAC Armored HQ: autopro's Centurion MBT every 10 turns

some more screens too :)

vietnamsvtechsdv6.jpg

South Vietnam techs (SV only, NV has its own line) note that the arrows are missing - the first in line is the F105D tech in the top left corner. the tree works from left to right and then snakes back from right to left.

vietnamnvleaderheadgn3.jpg

North Vietnam leaderhead/flag

vietnamcentralhighlandseq8.jpg

ARVN Rangers in the Central Highlands of South Vietnam

vietnamarclightho5.jpg

Look out Sir Charles! Here comes the buffer's! :D
 
Oo, music folder, I'm looking forward to that?

Do I smell Machine Gun and Break On Through?
 
El how do you post screenies
 
Very interesting potential and some nice innovations.

However, the part about leaving out naval units made me reach for the snuff box. Using an anvil to kill ants is an apt characterization for many aspects of the campaign, but I do not necessarily see that as grounds for exclusion of the concept. It is your baby, but I think that some level of naval play would be appropriate, given their very large parts of the overall war. Implemented soberly and with appropriate house rules, even the USN is not a gamebreaker.
 
19 december update

alright - i've relented and added in the USN into the scenario :) now, no PBRs or anything like that. that's simply too much imo (not to mention the scale ain't right for them). instead, i've decided to put in there a bunch of the carrier groups that operated in the south china sea and in the gulf of tonkin during the war. these carrier groups will be immobile sea units w/ pre-placed air units on them (f8's, f4's, a1's, a4's, a6's). along w/ the carrier groups, i'll pre-place some of the DD, DDG, and CG groups that escorted the carriers. they'll all be pre-placed and will have a decent AA value in case the NVAF wants to try and send some MiGs at 'em. none of them will be able to move though.

furthermore, i plan on pre-placing a few of the baltimore class CA conversions (converted to CAGs in the late 50s/early 60s) near Cam Ranh and Danang. all of the CAGs will be immobile as well but have a healthy bombardment range. Charlie's just gotta make sure he don't come w/in range of her missiles :)

as for ships that can actually move around...i will put some DE's and maybe some older DDs to patrol the coastline (and maybe the 'see invisible' flag so they can spot out the VC along the coastline?)

why all of the immobile units? well - for one, allowing them to move around would undoubtedly result in the CVA groups, the CAGs, the DDGs, and all of the other bombarding vessels ending up along the north vietnamese coast line, bombarding the pulp out of the NV coastal cities. all the while, the NV Navy, resplendent w/ her shiny motorized torpedo boats :p , stand virtually no chance whatsoever of stopping the USN from coming. so for this fact alone, there'll be no US/RVN sea units allowed to move around and bombard. this includes my beloved USS New Jersey too :sad: (although she spent only a few weeks in Vietnam ~ iow, she doesn't make the cut i'm afraid).

so, the gist of all this is that the CVA groups will essentially serve as floating airfields for the SV position (remember boys and girls, the US dropped more bombs in vietnam than the whole of ww2 combined!) check it out...below are a few in-game shots of the CVAs:

vietnamyankeefp1.jpg

the USN's "Yankee Station" in the Gulf of Tonkin - clockwise from 12 o'clock: USS Coral Sea (CVA-43), USS Yorktown (CVS-10), USS Oriskany (CVA-34), USS Ticonderoga (CVA-14), USS Ranger (CVA-61), USS Enterprise (CVA-65)

vietnamdixieir0.jpg

the USN's "Dixie Station" in the South China Sea. from left to right:
USS Independence (CVA-62), USS Midway (CVA-41), USS Bon Homme Richard (CVA-62), USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Kitty Hawk (CVA-63)
 
Yes the US did their best to bomb the NVA into the stoneage. Of course when you look at the payload of a B-52 you start to realize how easy it is to get bomb tonnage up. Are you also planning to make the pre-placed naval aircraft unable to rebase?
 
Are you also planning to make the pre-placed naval aircraft unable to rebase?
that is the tricky part i think. by this i mean that if i don't allow for them to rebase then there's no way for them to heal should they incur any damage from bombing runs (vs MiGs). now, ideally, yes, those pre-placed planes ought not be able to rebase...simply to keep them on the CVAs. however, the consequences of not allowing them to rebase would mean that the carrier air wings would or could be operating at low strength (ie planes that sustained damage in bombing runs would never be able to heal ~ or rebase to a city which allows for them to heal). so, for this fact alone, i am probably going to allow for all US/RVN planes to be able to rebase.

i know the possible effects like other planes rebasing onto the carriers. however, if it's the human player, it will be urged not to rebase USAF or Army air units onto the CVAs.

at the same time, in order to fill in the gaps from possible losses of carrier-based air units, i am considering introducing some wonders which would autoproduce carrier-based aircraft like the later versions of the f8, a4, a6, and a7. of course, the rate of autoproduction would be very slow. however, it's purpose would be for the 'replenishment' of the USN air wings. i mean, the USN is going to lose aircraft in the scenario. there's no doubt about this (all of the NVA AA pieces & SAM batteries are bound to have some sort of attrition rate against all air units).

next up will be to make a final determination on the role of 'mobile' sea units (ie ones which can actually move around and aren't 'immobile). i'm leaning towards allowing for NV to operate some sort of trawler or barge unit (invisible of course) that the USN's DEs can search out and destroy. this method would neeed to be refined through testing. but the gist would be to have a sort of 'cat & mouse' game at sea where the NV would try to infiltrate by sea while the USN would be tasked with interdicting the infiltration. iow, the DEs would have to 'picket' themselves and seek out the enemy vessels and destroy them upon discovery.

PS-that was an interesting link Wyrmshadow-a fresh point of view instead of the incessant negativity that is associated w/ the war.
 
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