Wang's Killing Fields (IMM Always War)
- Thread starter Doshin
- Start date
rfcfanatic
Mercantilist
I wonder what the War Weariness would be before I made it to Fascism and Police State.
@ben-jammin
1. Infiltrate with a second Great Spy. I've found that once you hit Constitution, the espionage economy mostly takes care of itself, provided that you have a good trap city. Subsequent Great Spies should build Scotland Yard in high commerce cities (beginning with your capital, since you should have settled the first GSpy there).
I think an argument can also be made for infiltrating with the first GSpy, but I don't usually do this.
2. It depends... I'm not sure there is a right answer. However, I've found that settling the first GG and attaching the second works well. Settling one GG lets you get CGI, Drill III Archers out of the gate (or CGIII, Drill I). These will hold off any attack before Macemen.
Remember that, for the most part, any AI attack on a Walled hill city is a source of free experience for your Archers (massed CR Swords pose the only real threat). This experience will let you promote several of your defenders to respectable levels, so they are more than ready to cope with Catapults once they arrive.
3. Pikes, Elephants, or multiple super-defenders. Just make sure that you have enough units to soak up any collateral (i.e. Drill promoted LBs, or siege units).
Incidentally, the Ballista Elephant is freaking amazing at this point in the game.
4. Yes. HA Rushes still work, but you need to fix your economy afterwards (which is already difficult on Immortal when you are at peace with the other AI).
5. The Music GA is more achievable, but understand that Music offers next to nothing other than the GA (no trade bait, no immediate military units, no important wonders or buildings).
In my trial run (same settings, different map/opponents), Lizzie took Lib. in 740 AD when my continent had only just reached Alphabet.
6. Steal big, expensive techs and self-tech the smaller ones yourself (Polytheism, Lit, Paper, etc.).
@Revent
Looking good. My only suggestion: settle flat-land cities at your own risk.
@shlugi
Looks like Bismark already beat you to the Great Wall, in 2200 BC. Now you'll have to take it.
I'm not sure that the two-pop Settler whip was worth it, since you can no longer work the improved Stone and Gold. At present, it will take four turns to grow back to size three. In this time, the Quarry would have provided you with +4
, +4 
+16 
and the Gold +12 , +32 . At size three, you still need to grow onto the Gold.
Woodsmen III Axes are awesome. You might want to withdraw one of your Warriors and upgrade him, after hooking the Copper up.
@GKey
Yes to both.
@rfcfanatic
War weariness is halved, and only accumulates when combat occurs in territory in which you are not culturally dominant. So your WW is virtually non-existent before you go on the offensive. After that, it begins to stack up but isn't as bad as normal.
1. Infiltrate with a second Great Spy. I've found that once you hit Constitution, the espionage economy mostly takes care of itself, provided that you have a good trap city. Subsequent Great Spies should build Scotland Yard in high commerce cities (beginning with your capital, since you should have settled the first GSpy there).
I think an argument can also be made for infiltrating with the first GSpy, but I don't usually do this.
2. It depends... I'm not sure there is a right answer. However, I've found that settling the first GG and attaching the second works well. Settling one GG lets you get CGI, Drill III Archers out of the gate (or CGIII, Drill I). These will hold off any attack before Macemen.
Remember that, for the most part, any AI attack on a Walled hill city is a source of free experience for your Archers (massed CR Swords pose the only real threat). This experience will let you promote several of your defenders to respectable levels, so they are more than ready to cope with Catapults once they arrive.
3. Pikes, Elephants, or multiple super-defenders. Just make sure that you have enough units to soak up any collateral (i.e. Drill promoted LBs, or siege units).
Incidentally, the Ballista Elephant is freaking amazing at this point in the game.
4. Yes. HA Rushes still work, but you need to fix your economy afterwards (which is already difficult on Immortal when you are at peace with the other AI).
5. The Music GA is more achievable, but understand that Music offers next to nothing other than the GA (no trade bait, no immediate military units, no important wonders or buildings).
In my trial run (same settings, different map/opponents), Lizzie took Lib. in 740 AD when my continent had only just reached Alphabet.
6. Steal big, expensive techs and self-tech the smaller ones yourself (Polytheism, Lit, Paper, etc.).
@Revent
Looking good. My only suggestion: settle flat-land cities at your own risk.
@shlugi
Looks like Bismark already beat you to the Great Wall, in 2200 BC. Now you'll have to take it.
I'm not sure that the two-pop Settler whip was worth it, since you can no longer work the improved Stone and Gold. At present, it will take four turns to grow back to size three. In this time, the Quarry would have provided you with +4
, +4 +16 and the Gold +12 , +32 . At size three, you still need to grow onto the Gold.Woodsmen III Axes are awesome. You might want to withdraw one of your Warriors and upgrade him, after hooking the Copper up.
@GKey
Yes to both.
@rfcfanatic
War weariness is halved, and only accumulates when combat occurs in territory in which you are not culturally dominant. So your WW is virtually non-existent before you go on the offensive. After that, it begins to stack up but isn't as bad as normal.
rfcfanatic
Mercantilist
4000 BC - 1720 BC.
Settled on the spot. Pigs require AH, so in order to unlock it I had a choice of teching either Agriculture or Hunting. I chose Hunting, because it's cheaper, it leads to Archery and with copper enables spearmen. The city started working on a warrior (never know who's gonna appear from the darkness and enter my empty capital while my only warrior is exploring!)
Next techs: Bronze Working - Masonry - The Wheel - Archery - Agriculture. I have met a couple of AIs.
Barbarians were an annoyance until 1720 BC when I completed the Great Wall. Eat this, barbarians!
My 2nd city was founded in 2280 BC. Now working on the 3rd settler.
Settled on the spot. Pigs require AH, so in order to unlock it I had a choice of teching either Agriculture or Hunting. I chose Hunting, because it's cheaper, it leads to Archery and with copper enables spearmen. The city started working on a warrior (never know who's gonna appear from the darkness and enter my empty capital while my only warrior is exploring!)
Next techs: Bronze Working - Masonry - The Wheel - Archery - Agriculture. I have met a couple of AIs.
Spoiler :
Barbarians were an annoyance until 1720 BC when I completed the Great Wall. Eat this, barbarians!
My 2nd city was founded in 2280 BC. Now working on the 3rd settler.
Spoiler :
2480 BC - 2200 BC (T38--T45).
With Stone hooked up, I make an immediate start on the Great Wall.
In the meantime I finish BW. A source of Copper appears:
The Warrior fortified in Qin's territory keeps an eye on his buildup:
At long last, I get a Woodsman II Warrior.
And, in 2200 BC, I finish the Great Wall:
Current to do list:
Build two Archers: one for each city. Finish Barracks in capital. Grow capital to size 5. Switch into Slavery. Build further units, settle further cities. Start on the Mids. Think about building the Oracle.
With Stone hooked up, I make an immediate start on the Great Wall.
Spoiler :
In the meantime I finish BW. A source of Copper appears:
Spoiler :
The Warrior fortified in Qin's territory keeps an eye on his buildup:
Spoiler :
At long last, I get a Woodsman II Warrior.
Spoiler :
And, in 2200 BC, I finish the Great Wall:
Spoiler :
Current to do list:
Build two Archers: one for each city. Finish Barracks in capital. Grow capital to size 5. Switch into Slavery. Build further units, settle further cities. Start on the Mids. Think about building the Oracle.
rfcfanatic
Mercantilist
725 BC (turn 86). A few turns ago an AI stack appeared.
I whipped the library in Pyongyang and are trying to run scientists there.
As the situation is getting more dangerous, my 4th settler is sitting in the capital.
Spoiler :
I whipped the library in Pyongyang and are trying to run scientists there.
As the situation is getting more dangerous, my 4th settler is sitting in the capital.
rfcfanatic
Mercantilist
1 AD and I'm still alive!
Spoiler :
2080 BC - 375 BC (T48-T100)
My Woodsman II Warrior goes Worker hunting and looking for plunder:
Sadly, he is later sniped on a forested hill by a Chariot, losing at 30% odds.
Our 3rd neighbor is Bismarck. He is the first AI to send a stack in our general direction:
I have four cities at this point. The outlying cities are guarded by two Archers, the inner cities by one:
It will take the Bismarck 8-10 turns to reach my cities, so I'm not particularly worried.
In 1000BC, T75, I build the Oracle, chopping two Forests to complete it:
Unfortunately this led to me losing the Mids by four turns. Que sera, sera...
In T77, 950 BC, troops start to enter my borders. Walls are put up, no Archers are lost. Several useful tiles are pillaged, but these have now been improved again.
Great people start to spawn:
Defensive action:
Barb Spearmen are spawning:
Cities:
Stats thus far:
Points of note: Hinduism and Judaism were founded on the other continent. Judaism is already more widely spread than Hinduism, so I hope that this will lead to some religious strife.
No metal units have appeared yet. This will surely change with the advent of Iron Working.
Qin is already below us on the score chart.
It was not the most effective choke, but it was enough.
I will try to claim an Ivory and Gems spot with my sixth city. This will block off two further spots, give me two extra happiness, and let me build Elephants.
More Cottages are needed. My Worker turns have been spent improving pillaged resources, and without the Mids I need more sources of commerce.
No troops remain in my borders. Alex has not sent a SOD yet, so I expect that to show up shortly.
My Woodsman II Warrior goes Worker hunting and looking for plunder:
Spoiler :
Sadly, he is later sniped on a forested hill by a Chariot, losing at 30% odds.
Our 3rd neighbor is Bismarck. He is the first AI to send a stack in our general direction:
Spoiler :
I have four cities at this point. The outlying cities are guarded by two Archers, the inner cities by one:
Spoiler :
It will take the Bismarck 8-10 turns to reach my cities, so I'm not particularly worried.
In 1000BC, T75, I build the Oracle, chopping two Forests to complete it:
Spoiler :
Unfortunately this led to me losing the Mids by four turns. Que sera, sera...
In T77, 950 BC, troops start to enter my borders. Walls are put up, no Archers are lost. Several useful tiles are pillaged, but these have now been improved again.
Great people start to spawn:
Spoiler :
Defensive action:
Spoiler :
Barb Spearmen are spawning:
Spoiler :
Cities:
Spoiler :
Stats thus far:
Points of note: Hinduism and Judaism were founded on the other continent. Judaism is already more widely spread than Hinduism, so I hope that this will lead to some religious strife.
No metal units have appeared yet. This will surely change with the advent of Iron Working.
Qin is already below us on the score chart.
It was not the most effective choke, but it was enough.I will try to claim an Ivory and Gems spot with my sixth city. This will block off two further spots, give me two extra happiness, and let me build Elephants.
More Cottages are needed. My Worker turns have been spent improving pillaged resources, and without the Mids I need more sources of commerce.
No troops remain in my borders. Alex has not sent a SOD yet, so I expect that to show up shortly.
rfcfanatic
Mercantilist
640 AD. So far I have managed to hold up to AI attacks. My HA-s just killed a stack of 6-7 swordsmen and a couple of catas. AI longbows have shown up. My HA advantage is about to come to an end as the AI also has HA-s now. Luckily, no elephants yet. I probably need to start training some hwachas.
I'm falling behind in tech. My academy-powered research at 100% is 76, but the maintenance is killing me. Struggling to get Currency.
I'm falling behind in tech. My academy-powered research at 100% is 76, but the maintenance is killing me. Struggling to get Currency.
rfcfanatic
Mercantilist
1140 AD I have to abandon my first city, but I can probably survive until 1200.
The maintenance costs on this difficulty level are just crazy. If anyone knows how to deal with it let me know. I tried to build Wealth but it only confirmed my opinion that building Wealth is completely useless waste of hammers.
Spoiler :
The maintenance costs on this difficulty level are just crazy. If anyone knows how to deal with it let me know. I tried to build Wealth but it only confirmed my opinion that building Wealth is completely useless waste of hammers.
ben-jammin
Emperor
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2011
- Messages
- 1,436
Currency is not the economic saviour it would be in a normal game. Zero foreign trade routes, zero tech or resource trades for gold. You will have to supplement your gold income with failgold from stone-boosted wonders, and your research with specialists and particularly espionage (where you can get very favourable EP->beakers conversion, and also remember that spy specialists give you 4EP+1beaker, a significantly better yield than any other specialist even without representation or taking into account the discounted spy missions).
rfcfanatic
Mercantilist
1310 AD. Time to accept the inevitable...
My plan with currency was to get Code of Laws - Civil Service so I could produce and research faster with the help of Bureaucracy. But one thing I really missed in this game was Hereditary Rule. While I was desperately trying to grab all the military techs as soon as possible, I didn't get a chance to make a detour to Monarchy.
Spoiler :
My plan with currency was to get Code of Laws - Civil Service so I could produce and research faster with the help of Bureaucracy. But one thing I really missed in this game was Hereditary Rule. While I was desperately trying to grab all the military techs as soon as possible, I didn't get a chance to make a detour to Monarchy.
rfcfanatic
Mercantilist
1380 AD. The End. Didn't quite make it to Emperor 
DanielTorrence
Warlord
Thanks for the detailed write-up, I am following closely, it rules out the principles of AW very detailed. I will try to shadow your game...a question: is it mandatory to settle all cities, also the coastal cities on hills? Naval attacks are quite a few turns away and I would expect you try to repell the AIs rather with a strong navy then with fortyfied units in cities. It seems you miss quite some seafood settling city No 2 where you did.
Another point is about the mids: is the oracle to prefer to the mids? And besides, what civs are the preferred ones: cast or slavery? With Rep, caste would make more sense but disable emergency whippings...
Keep on fighting them!
ben-jammin
Emperor
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2011
- Messages
- 1,436
Here's my empire, as of 150AD (I have re-played this map after I missed the mids by a few turns the first time around, so I'm obviously doing so well because I cheated):
Six cities, I got all the outer spots I wanted by aggressively settling towards the AI with cities 3, 5, and 6. The attacks have so far concentrated exclusively on the northernmost wet wheat/horses/ivory location. Every city is on a hill. My tech order went something like hunting->AH->wheel->BW->meditation->priesthood->masonry->writing->CoL(oracle)->pottery->alphabet->polytheism->monotheism
Capital:
Catapults have just started to appear, to accompany CR swords and horse archers, so the next GG will obviously be used on a super-defender. Clearly it's also time to start stealing/teching my way to feudalism and engineering. I have all my espionage points on Qin as he very generously settled a garbage-city very close to me for excellent distance modifier on spy missions. Hopefully one of the AIs is dumb enough to tech aesthetics, because I'd love to steal it and self-tech literature for the HE in the capital.
Planned backfill cities to the south:
Any experienced AW player want to tell me if the spot directly south of the capital is a big mistake? It's there specifically to help develop cottages, but being on flat ground i guess it will be vulnerable to naval invasion later on. There is a possible fourth spot in the little unexplored area.
Planned city spot in the center:
This one should get very quick confucianism from the auto-spread of the shrine, and theoretically should be able to take and hold the pigs that would otherwise go to Qin's outer cross. If that's the case it gives me a good city and makes his garbage.
Spoiler :
Six cities, I got all the outer spots I wanted by aggressively settling towards the AI with cities 3, 5, and 6. The attacks have so far concentrated exclusively on the northernmost wet wheat/horses/ivory location. Every city is on a hill. My tech order went something like hunting->AH->wheel->BW->meditation->priesthood->masonry->writing->CoL(oracle)->pottery->alphabet->polytheism->monotheism
Capital:
Spoiler :
Catapults have just started to appear, to accompany CR swords and horse archers, so the next GG will obviously be used on a super-defender. Clearly it's also time to start stealing/teching my way to feudalism and engineering. I have all my espionage points on Qin as he very generously settled a garbage-city very close to me for excellent distance modifier on spy missions. Hopefully one of the AIs is dumb enough to tech aesthetics, because I'd love to steal it and self-tech literature for the HE in the capital.
Planned backfill cities to the south:
Spoiler :
Any experienced AW player want to tell me if the spot directly south of the capital is a big mistake? It's there specifically to help develop cottages, but being on flat ground i guess it will be vulnerable to naval invasion later on. There is a possible fourth spot in the little unexplored area.
Planned city spot in the center:
Spoiler :
This one should get very quick confucianism from the auto-spread of the shrine, and theoretically should be able to take and hold the pigs that would otherwise go to Qin's outer cross. If that's the case it gives me a good city and makes his garbage.
Attachments
ben-jammin
Emperor
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The location of the capital killed the only city location that could have worked those fish. The AI later on can start doing some erratic things like bypassing the city (or cities) it had been targeting all game on the perimeter to go for your inner cities, as well as camping small stacks on defensive terrain within your borders. Settling every city on a hill is the best way to make sure you dont stupidly get one picked off by roaming units. The AI gets lucky rolls sometimes, too
Another point is about the mids: is the oracle to prefer to the mids? And besides, what civs are the preferred ones: cast or slavery? With Rep, caste would make more sense but disable emergency whippings...
Keep on fighting them!
Mids are far more valuable than the oracle. In my game I was able to get the oracle, the great wall, and the mids. Chop and put maximum whip overflow from settlers into them. The capital has the forests, the high-food tiles (to regrow from 2pop whipping very quickly even without a granary, which in my game I neglected to build), and the raw hammers to get it done. You should be able to whip ~40 hammers of overflow from a settler into the wonders and regrow 1pop the same turn. Those overflow hammers also benefit from the access to stone for the GW and mids (ie 80 hammers, over half the cost of the GW right there).
Zx Zero Zx
Deity
Hmm I feel I might play some Civ to get whooped instead of playing that Pacal start on deity, and getting whooped. 
Thanks for the detailed write-up, I am following closely, it rules out the principles of AW very detailed. I will try to shadow your game...a question: is it mandatory to settle all cities, also the coastal cities on hills? Naval attacks are quite a few turns away and I would expect you try to repell the AIs rather with a strong navy then with fortyfied units in cities. It seems you miss quite some seafood settling city No 2 where you did.
Another point is about the mids: is the oracle to prefer to the mids? And besides, what civs are the preferred ones: cast or slavery? With Rep, caste would make more sense but disable emergency whippings...
Keep on fighting them!
It's all but mandatory to settle cities on hills at the beginning, I think. Try as you might, the AI will bypass your blocking cities to attack a weaker target. So unless you can block off land access to a flat-land city entirely (e.g. the city is settled behind a mountain, or hidden behind another hill city) it will always be at risk.
Civs that share a land mass with you will not perform naval invasions (I think), but one of the toughest times in Always War comes with the arrival of the other continent. Suddenly your opponent count doubles (2/3 --> 6/7) and, because they have not been at war for the entire game, they are usually more advanced. You need the hill bonus then more than ever.
It is impossible to keep up with the AI's navies before Combustion and Flight. They just build too many units, and you can't destroy them efficiently like you can on land (land armies can be wiped out by well-positioned Longbows, Rifles, and Machine Guns, or, when you are attacking, siege).
Personally, I think the Mids are a better wonder, but all of the Deity Always War games I've read through have utilized the Oracle (e.g. http://www.civforum.de/showthread.php?59698-SG-34-Badaboum-Grosses-Badaboum-(Gott-AW)). If you don't build the Great Wall, then CoLs is a must, which requires the Oracle. Without it, you cannot generate a Great Spy as your first Great Person (which is crucial).
Anyway, things have taken a turn for the worse in my game. I'm finding it hard to gain traction, and suspect that this one will be a loss... Still, I shall fight it out to the bitter end.
ben-jammin
Emperor
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I got a GProphet first, which was a bummer (and I'm starting to think that building the shrine was not a great idea...those two hammers in a bureau cap + heroic epic would be nice) but got a Gspy second at around 60% odds. If I hadn't...I'm not sure what I'd have continued the effort.
I seem to have gotten extreeemely lucky. The "______(great general) has been born in a distant land" notification popped up on a turn when no combat happened. Which means the other continent is at war.
I seem to have gotten extreeemely lucky. The "______(great general) has been born in a distant land" notification popped up on a turn when no combat happened. Which means the other continent is at war.
ben-jammin
Emperor
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Waiting for Tachy and/or Mylene and/or Dirk and/or Snaaty to hopefully play this before I keep going so I can copy them
