Warhammer Fantasy Mod 2.0

[Lord Khorak]

These are elite, disgraced mercenary Dwarves, and yet they are the Dwarves sole good offensive unit until you get to something even more elite, disgraced and mercenary? Doesn't make sense to me...

It doesn't make sense to you because you seem to have been reading the wrong book about Slayers. A completely wrong book.

They are not elite, they are not mercenaries. They are ordinary rank and file Dwarves who have disgraced themselves in such a fashion they leave absolutely everything behind and seek their death fighting the most terrible enemies they can find. They do not fight for money (their sole posessions consisting of red dye, an axe and a pair of trousers), the standard troll slayer is not elite, he is simply a crazed lunatic with no sense of self preservation seeking to redeem himself in the eyes of his brethren by facing the most powerful enemies going.

No-one in their right mind would call a unit whose general sole purpose on the battlefield is to die being a roadbump in front of the enemies best units, elite. In fact, they consider it a failure to hack the enemy apart in a flail of axes and survive the battle.

 

[Khift]

Ah. Well, that goes to show that I don't know anything about the Warhammer world...

But, why would there be enough of them to make up armies and armies? Just doesn't make sense to me... Why would there be enough outcasts and disgraced, berserker dwarves to justify them being the only good unit the dwarves get?

 

[chocmushroom]

Ah. Well, that goes to show that I don't know anything about the Warhammer world...

But, why would there be enough of them to make up armies and armies? Just doesn't make sense to me... Why would there be enough outcasts and disgraced, berserker dwarves to justify them being the only good unit the dwarves get?

What you must remember is that the warhammer world is a constantly changing place. I can remember a time when different chaos powers could not operate on the same side.... ok, Nurgle could not be with Slannesh & Khone could not play with Tzeentch (I can also remember a time when there were no choas powers, yes, i'm that old!!!)

So the fact that there can now be armies of disgraced dwarves, Why not.
It may be that fighting in a battle and not dying when your side loose is a disgrace, and then a LOT of them stunties could be disgraced after loosing to my GREEN HORDE ALL THE TIME

BTW, be carefull when you goto Wartime with orcs or chaos, i've just done it, then reloaded the game, didn't know that the wounder that i was 2 turns away from completing would be changed to a troll

 

[Mr. Do]

Haha, that's great chocmushroom. I'm surprised I've never had that happen to me during the regular game!

It's not like slayer armies are all that you're going to see, Khift. If you choose to only ever build one type of unit there's not a lot that any mod maker can do about it. The AI on the other hand seems to build a fair enough mix of troll slayers, ironbreakers and clansman. Doesn't build many hammerers and longbeards though, not sure what can be done about that, it's just the way the AI works.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but is there any possible way for a city to culture flip in this mod? I have enabled the culture flip selector in the initial game setup and I've never seen a city flip to me or to the enemy. Was this part of the mod?

 

[Goldflash]

Yes, it is. I got some Dwarven City through a culture flip.

 

[DemonMaster]

Hmm I recently lost a couple of my HIGH-ELVEN cities to the Kislev?, strange isn't it my Highelves liked him and his despotistic rule better. I hate cultural flips, next time, off it goes. Perhaps it was my fault, Am I a bad King, perhaps I should abdicate (or play the darkelves the next time).

 

[Mr. Do]

I think culture flips are meant to be a good part of the game (Something ED said about them), but gods, I hate them so I never play with them turned on.

 

[Billy Rubin]

@Demonmaster: Kislevites are a monarchy (at least in the mod) - allthough I admit High Elves being admirers of some dirty clad drunkard (he looks that way to me, besides Kislevites have the strange habit of annyoing me above average in this game ...) seems way strange to me.

Cultural Flips work quite well for me - especially when playing chaos.

On dwarfs: It's strange, but they're usually one of the worst performing civs in all my games - doesn't matter if random map or a scenario. I'd love to keep them in the game 'til the end, and never attack them, even if I play orcs or chaos, but they've never managed to survive... Also, as much as I love to have them in the game for their uniqueness, they're one of the most unattractive civs for me to play - you can't get a wide variety of units (at least until imperial era) and most of their units are just a small, bearded guy with some different weapon moving one tile at a time - but hey - that's what dwarfs are . I think their miners and engineers make up for a lot when playing them, allthough I had the impression that engineers came way to late in the only dwarven game I've played - there was no work for them left...

 

[Mr. Do]

The dwarfs have managed to survive until the end-game period of my current game as the Nipponese, which is neat, although I am currently taking them to pieces (and trying to keep my greater daemon allies from capturing their cities- they belong to ME!), and it seems no matter what ED does, they just don't like building city improvements that would realy aid them! They do at least have a huge navy

 

[DemonMaster]

Oh sh-t the Kislevites are a Monarchy, thats explains alot, I agree, by looking at the "dirty clad drunkard" I presumed they where despotists. So my elves just wanted a night on the town, I knew I was a to harsh ruler.

 

[Khift]

Hmm I recently lost a couple of my HIGH-ELVEN cities to the Kislev?, strange isn't it my Highelves liked him and his despotistic rule better. I hate cultural flips, next time, off it goes. Perhaps it was my fault, Am I a bad King, perhaps I should abdicate (or play the darkelves the next time).

They must've liked the kitten. I don't see how it's possible to like Zoltan, though...

It's not like slayer armies are all that you're going to see, Khift. If you choose to only ever build one type of unit there's not a lot that any mod maker can do about it. The AI on the other hand seems to build a fair enough mix of troll slayers, ironbreakers and clansman. Doesn't build many hammerers and longbeards though, not sure what can be done about that, it's just the way the AI works.

Look, you're missing my point. My point is that the Dwarven units suck, and should be revamped.

And anyways, what you said only furthers my claims - the AI only builds Clansmen, Ironbreakers, and Slayers. Why? Clansmen are both defensive units and better attackers than Hammerers, like I said, and Ironbreakers are the only late age defensive unit they get until Thunderers. Slayers are the only pure offense units they build, because they're the only good offensive units they get at all.

I am additionally questioning why Slayers should be the only good offensive units the Dwarves get. While being more than willing to put your life on the line and sacrifice yourself in battle can lead to damaging results, wouldn't well trained and well equipped infantry perform better than battle-crazed death wishers with nothing but an axe and some shorts? Or, at least, why don't the dwarves have some variation? All other races have five different types of offensive units - cheap infantry, cheaper bowmen/crossbowmen, moderately expensive cavalry, fairly expensive power units (Trolls, Giants, Demons, etc.), and very expensive flying units. Why is it that the dwarves get access only to one viable offensive unit line, the Slayers? (I realize that they should not get cavalry or standard flying units - that's a part of the flavor, and should stay that way.) And why don't the dwarves get better pre-cannon artillery than others? It doesn't add up to me.

 

[Mr. Do]

Look, you're missing my point. My point is that the Dwarven units suck, and should be revamped.

I'm not missing your point, I'm just trying to make you see the current situation from another point of view. If your opinion is that they suck though, then that's that.

And anyways, what you said only furthers my claims - the AI only builds Clansmen, Ironbreakers, and Slayers.

To be honest if the AI is building more than two different ground units of the same movement at any one time that's an achievement in itself! I'd like to see Dwarf crosswbowmen in the game for a bit more variation myself, but the unit's not there so there's nothing that can be done about it right now, unfortunately.

 

[Khift]

So you're saying it's an achievement for the AI to build both Spearmen and Swordsmen in the epic game...? And don't say it's different then than it is, here - it isn't. The AI builds Ironbreakers for defense and Slayers for offense. Simple as that.

The AI still builds only one offensive unit per era as the Dwarves in this mod, and that's the Clansmen first, then the Slayers.

 

[Mr. Do]

More than two = three, including the clansmen it seems to continue to build (Or have such a huge surplus of them). But let's not get bogged down in semantics here: my point is that there is little that can be done that will really make all the current dwarf units worth building to the AI. But that's not your point so it doesn't matter. Carry on!

 

[drzoidberg]

On dwarfs: It's strange, but they're usually one of the worst performing civs in all my games - doesn't matter if random map or a scenario. I'd love to keep them in the game 'til the end, and never attack them, even if I play orcs or chaos, but they've never managed to survive... Also, as much as I love to have them in the game for their uniqueness, they're one of the most unattractive civs for me to play - you can't get a wide variety of units (at least until imperial era) and most of their units are just a small, bearded guy with some different weapon moving one tile at a time - but hey - that's what dwarfs are . I think their miners and engineers make up for a lot when playing them, allthough I had the impression that engineers came way to late in the only dwarven game I've played - there was no work for them left...

I'm playing a dwarven game now and the strategy I opted for was to get hammerer as soon as possible and then conquer. This means they can pretty much clean the map since they have nothing to fear. In the next era it's a different matter, then dwarves militarlily suck ass. Then I switch to maximizing science and commerce. I'm in the second era and things are looking very peachy indeed.
-Tom

 

[Webrider]

Ok as explained to me by the originator of this mod....
The Dwarves really kick in the last era .. the technology era... as do a couple other empiers.. but the Dwarves for sure... I played them.. and found this to be really true..
The Dwarven steam rollers seem to be stronger then their 8 attack value when on the offense.. they kick butt and have a 2 movement rate... then you couple that with later era artillery stength 12 and you have a pretty invincible army. I didnt use the troll slayers that much or the long beards... you need the one with the good defense to suppliment your army. Then the Gyro's and Airships are alot of fun as well...
I had no trouble dominatin as the Dwarves. I thought they were alot of fun and functioned exactly as explained.
The fact that they really dont kick in until the later tech's would mean that the computer played Dwarves might suffer by not picking its early battles carefully and not being able to hang with the earlier dominant magic Civs.
Of course this is just a thought or two.. err three but something to consider.

 

[mrtn]

I've been thinking of upping the Longbeard attack to 8 to make them on par with the Greatswords and the other 8/5/1 units...

Edit for ED's benefit: The dwarves still perform bad, even though you removed the "Emphasize shields" flag.

An idea: Maybe give them a civspecific building that give 1 culture? As it is now the dwarves only start building culture in the second era or something... I was thinking about a "Dwarven Smithy" building, or something like that? Chaos builds their herdstones, after all.
The smithy could be obsoleted after a while, if it turns out to be too powerful.

I'm vaguely suspecting that the reson the dwarves perform as they do is because the clansmen are too good. Or that they're flagged offensive instead of defensive. You sure see a whole lot of clansmen around, that's for sure...

 

[Khift]

Judging from my experience watching the dwarves, the clansmen must be flagged both offensive and defensive. They really are the dwarves only strength until Troll slayers, seeing as they are so price efficient.

 

[Billy Rubin]

@Drzoidberg: I wasn't doing bad in my game either - just didn't finish it because I only started it to test why the AI was doing so bad on that map - found no problem at all - in fact I was doing extremely well because I've packed the whole region with ridiculous lots of ressources, so the AI would perform better this time...

@Webrider: The problem is, that the AI never reached the imperial age in any of my games

I've attached three screenshots from my current game, investigating 3 dwarven cities - it's allways the same in all my games - they're not doing so bad tech-wise. They're slightly ahead of me, having about half of the dark ages techs, but they don't make any use of them except for building catapults and - if it's a coastal city - ships. I've even tried to make them build defensive land units often in this game, leaving the rest untouched, but to no avail. It's a custom map again and as you can see, they have an insane amount of ressources (I'd never give so much to anyone, but I just wanted them to survive at least - any other civ would shortly rule the world with that starting location...). And as usual, the first one declaring war on them will have lots of catapults... I don't get it - ok - land artillery is meant to be built often, but the ships?