Warhammer Fantasy Mod 2.1

[aaglo]

Well....
I think you should completely forget adding that "clay giant" (my 3rd unit ever IIRC). It's simply horrible - and horribly large. Please don't even think about it.

Actually, giving that pebble-guy to albion makes sense, since albions have two different giant models (in Dogs of War-line atleast) - one with a treetrunk, one with runestone (as a thrown weapon ). I'll look into it when I've got the time.

Gomurr's tyrant was already on my long-forgotten (and abused) to-do list, so due to personal preferences that would be made before the manticore (a lion with wings?). But I really don't have much time to fiddle with pov-ray for atleast couple of weeks. And also, I'm not in the mood for adding completely new units on the mod. Replacing unit graphics is different issue (like replacing the Aok-infantry with italian foot knight, and then the bretonnian MaA with CamJH's Domani... like mentioned before). Cheers.

 

[Stormrage]

To Gomurr: Um...Jotun is twice as bigger than the Stone giant, and of different color... The Regular Giant (does he have a name or something, I feel stupid calling him that) is also of different color, but atleast he is closer by size. Or were you reffering to the fact that both Jotun and the Stone giant have hair and beards, and the Albion (ha!) Giant is bald?

About unit set producing.... yeah, aaglo is the best!

About the manticore: http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/22/

 

[The Last Conformist]

In WHFB, the Ogre Kingdoms get to field units of dirt-cheap "Gnoblars" - basically undersize Goblins:

 

[Gomurr]

Well....
I think you should completely forget adding that "clay giant" (my 3rd unit ever IIRC). It's simply horrible - and horribly large. Please don't even think about it.

fine.... And, having never seen it actually in play, I had no idea it had size issues. And as for the Tyrant - well, if adding new units isn't what you're in the mood for, I'll just have to be patient and hope your mood shifts one day. I'll have to be satisfied with reminding you that you had intended on doing it at one point

Or were you reffering to the fact that both Jotun and the Stone giant have hair and beards, and the Albion (ha!) Giant is bald?

Not just the hair - they both seem rather wide and squat, as opposed to the Albionese Giant, which seems stretched and upright. If the Clay Giant's out, then I'd suggest moving the Hill Giant (Jotun) and Stone Giant to Albion, and the current Albionese Giant to Norsca as the Jotun, I guess... Though really, it doesn't make huge difference, I suppose.

@TLC - Gnoblars would definately be included - the current 'snotling' unit, and the little goblin pack of them that consists of five 'snotlings' with spears, would help fill out the ranks a bit.

 

[Stormrage]

Not just the hair - they both seem rather wide and squat, as opposed to the Albionese Giant, which seems stretched and upright. If the Clay Giant's out, then I'd suggest moving the Hill Giant (Jotun) and Stone Giant to Albion, and the current Albionese Giant to Norsca as the Jotun, I guess... Though really, it doesn't make huge difference, I suppose.

I can see your point...

Gnoblars would definately be included - the current 'snotling' unit, and the little goblin pack of them that consists of five 'snotlings' with spears, would help fill out the ranks a bit.

Maybe someone can just edit them a bit, to give them those ENORMOUS noses

WOOOHOOOO we`re posting like crazy!

 

[drzoidberg]

Several graphics, same stats? available for one civ at same tech?

Pro's about that idea:
- human player would have larger variety of unit graphics which can add character to the game

Con's about that idea:
- human player would have large build list (which is annoying)
- we don't (yet) know how the AI would handle that
- tech tree would become littered - maybe even some rearrangements to the tech trees would be needed (there's only a certain number of possible things you can show in tech trees).

This thread has exploded these last couple of days, so sorry if it's a bit late but I'd just like to add that I think this is one of the worst ideas so far. As far as playability is concearned. I want as few units with as diverse capabilities as possible to chose from when producing. I want it to be easy to tell which units have which capabilites apart. I'm not a fan of flavor units. This is my 5 cents at least.

 

[Stormrage]

It wasn`t an idea for the official mod... and it was a misunderstanding between Gomurr and myself..
Of all the changes suggested, you pick the one we dropped right away

 

[Gomurr]

I want as few units with as diverse capabilities as possible to chose from when producing. I want it to be easy to tell which units have which capabilites apart. I'm not a fan of flavor units. This is my 5 cents at least.

Certainly a valid argument. However, adding 'flavor units' has been one of the primary focuses of the Warhammer mod since its inception. While I'm not saying that adding different looking versions of the same unit is something that should be done, the Warhammer mod has never seemed to attempt to make it easy to tell which unit has which capabilities at a glance. It's just not one of the goals the mod shoots for, whereas adding flavor (amongst the various civs, not necessarily within a single civ) is evidently a goal it does strive to achieve.

 

[mrtn]

That thing about the horned vikings was just an attempt at "education through sarcasm", I'm not angry at Stormrage and hope he didn't take offense.

That medieval indian swordsman is lightly armed (shield and a quilted jerkin) while the Haradrim is more armed (scale mail (?) and helmet). light armor should upgrade to heavy armor, not the other way round.

The Amazons are silly, but they'll stay in the mod. On the other hand I don't feel like expanding their unit line (as I don't play with them I don't know what units they have. ).

 

[Dracleath]

Can you give the Ind the dervish from the araby unit list? It looks indian enough, and they need a heavy cavalry unit.

Or alternatively if you're going for more of a turkic feel with them and want to match the haradrim, then this unit:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=95492

I don't think that's anywhere in the mod yet.


I'd really like to see all civs have at least a offensive unit, a defensive unit, and a cavalry unit in the second age. Then we could drop the bonus from the slave pits down to 25% or so because we wouldn't need to compensate for the dolgans et al needing to mass produce 1st age units.

 

[Gomurr]

light armor should upgrade to heavy armor, not the other way round.

If this held true in the Warhammer mod, the heavily armored Chaos Dwarf Ironmask would not upgrade to the less heavily armored Chaos Dwarf Hero (Immortal of Hashut). As such, one should not feel bound to make all the units in the WH mod adhere to a progression from light to heavy armor.

Or alternatively if you're going for more of a turkic feel with them and want to match the haradrim, then this unit:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=95492

I don't think that's anywhere in the mod yet.

For what its worth, to whomever is working on the 'official' mod patches now, I'd request you not use this unit. It has the same helmet design as the Territorial Cavalry, and so would do really well as heavy cavalry for whatever civ gets the Territorial Cavalry unit. (In my case, that means the Border Princes civ, which I'd be happy to put up for public use when completed, if I figured out how to do so)

I also would say the Haradrim does not look sufficiently Indian for the Indics, though I doubt that'll stop you from using it. But even if you do include the Haradrim, please don't start adding Turkish-looking units to match it.

 

[Dracleath]

Hmm, really in order for everyone to have a full 2nd age unit set all you'd have to do would be:

1. Dervish to ind.

2. Keshik to 2nd age for dolgans with knight stats, availible at feudalism or chivalry
add hun in as offensive infantry unit,
add an appropriate defensive spearman from anno domani

3: Add icini in as amazon pikeman

4. give hun to Ungols


That's only really 3 new units and no new graphics.

 

[Gomurr]

Hmm, really in order for everyone to have a full 2nd age unit set all you'd have to do would be:

1. Dervish to ind.

The Dervish, however Indic it may look, comes from the west end of the African continent in the World of Warhammer, and the same unit really does not belong in both Indic and Arabyan civs. I question the necessity of giving all civs a full set of units in the second civ, especially since it seems unlikely that a jungle nation like Ind would have heavy cavalry. However, when I get a minute I'll look around for a mounted unit to recommend so I'm not simply criticizing your suggestion without presenting an alternative.

2. Keshik to 2nd age for dolgans with knight stats, availible at feudalism or chivalry

I think the Dolgans were left without a 2nd age cavalry deliberately, to simulate their being a dominant force in ancient ages and less of one as time progressed. I dunno. We've talked about giving them the Centaur, since the Dolgans supposedly ally with Centaur tribes from the Eastern Steppes to fill the 2nd age vacancy.

add hun in as offensive infantry unit,
add an appropriate defensive spearman from anno domani

Or, perhaps, add the hun as a defensive unit, and they don't get an offensive infantry unit because the Dolgans don't actually have offensive infantry in their armies?

 

[mrtn]

If this held true in the Warhammer mod, the heavily armored Chaos Dwarf Ironmask would not upgrade to the less heavily armored Chaos Dwarf Hero (Immortal of Hashut). As such, one should not feel bound to make all the units in the WH mod adhere to a progression from light to heavy armor.

Guess what, the Ironmask doesn't upgrade to the Immortal. However, I feel it's important to make the upgrades as logical as possible. Of course there will be some deviations from this.

 

[Gomurr]

Guess what, the Ironmask doesn't upgrade to the Immortal. However, I feel it's important to make the upgrades as logical as possible. Of course there will be some deviations from this.

You sure about that? I'll have to go back and check when I get time, but I was pretty sure the iron-masked CD unit upgraded to the Immortal. Of course, with all the tinkering I've done, it's possible I screwed that up somehow.

Either way, logic has nothing to say about the development of armor from light to heavy. Logic simply dictates that armor will progress in a fashion that responds to new stimuli - in some cases that means heavier. In others, like Europe after the development of firearms, that eventually meant lighter.

As you said, there will be deviations from your prefered progression of light to heavy armor. I see no reason for Ind not to be among those deviations.

 

[LMR]

At those who want Gnoblars: I'm willing to have a go after my exams. Next monday is my last one, and I have some other media studies work I have to do.

 

[Stormrage]

As you said, there will be deviations from your prefered progression of light to heavy armor. I see no reason for Ind not to be among those deviations.

Yeah! What Gomurr said...
And the thing is... if the heavy-light armor is your answer to why you won`t do it as I suggested.. I still don`t get it... If Araby gets the Haradrim (heavy-ish armor) he would upgrade to Saracen infantry (Heavy armor). And Ind would have the half-naked (but faster in real combat, and with two swords)Siamese swordsman upgrade to Medieval Indian Swordsman which is more armored, but not so heavy, cause they have to march trough jungles and stuff...
And this guy for Ind`s Pikeman?

At those who want Gnoblars: I'm willing to have a go after my exams. Next monday is my last one, and I have some other media studies work I have to do.

Told ya he`s coming back! Big style! Wooohooo! My sugg is a snotling with a huuuge nose, and a bit darker

Hmm, really in order for everyone to have a full 2nd age unit set all you'd have to do would be:

1. Dervish to ind.

2. Keshik to 2nd age for dolgans with knight stats, availible at feudalism or chivalry
add hun in as offensive infantry unit,
add an appropriate defensive spearman from anno domani

3: Add icini in as amazon pikeman

4. give hun to Ungols

1.How bout the Ind gets another elphant unit for second cavalry? There are plenty of those...As in plenty of Elephant units, and plenty of Elephants in Ind(ia)

2.Who wants the Centaur for the Dolgans (they have wh backround, if Gomurr is right), raise your hands?
And which hun for Dolgans? (???) The one from AD or Dom Pedro`s (I`ve kept calling him Kinboat`s Hun, sorry about that)? And how do Huns get in the picture for Dolgans? I don`t get it... What pikemen... are there appropriate pikemen in AD for Dolgans? You`ve just confused me big time. Now I know how people feel when I post

3.If they are willing to let the fact she has horns on her helmet pass, then I`m up for it. (Btw, mrtn, everything is ok . And back then I was refering to real Vikings, but since almost everyone in WH has horned helms...)

4.Again, which one?

Basicly, here is what I think, to summ up some of my last posts. The Ungols get R8XFT`s Hun for a Swordsman, and Dom Pedro`s Hun for a second defensive (but little stronger on offense, has two weapons, both long range) unit, instead of that Ungol Soldier. Also, maybe we can remove the heavy archer (uses gfx of the Hwarang archer unit, and they were Korean I think. Maybe he would fit better with Cathay?) and have both spearmen (gladiator) and their early archer unit upgrade to Dom Pedro`s Hun - he has the long type weapon, not as long as a spear, but looks pretty mean, and a short bow.. So he can be a good defender, and a good attacker, but marked defensive, so AI attacks mostly with mounted units, like real Mongols.
The Dolgans get the centaur, as the modmakers want to keep them barbaric, and without so many units, and the appropriate pikemen from AD, if there is one, i dunno, I havent seen one.

About that Otoman Knight, I didn`t even notice he has the same helmet as teritorial cavalry, the rest of the unit looks too different. I wanted to suggest him sometime before, but I`ve abandoned that idea, he just doesn`t fit... IMO anyway...
Maybe he could be a knight unit for BP? They occupy the territory of today`s Turkey, right? Maybe they (various foreign knights and others that came to those lands) got influenced by eastern people that live there...EDIT: Gomurr, when I first read your post, I figured you don`t want this unit in the mod at all, but after reading it again I think I said the exact same thing as you did, but in other words?

Also, is it just me, or does a lot of people keep confusing Dolgans and Ungols? Ungols (Hun + Mongols) are horse people like Mongols (well, duh!), and Dolgans (their capital is called Dolga = River Volga in Russia/Sibir?) are northern savage brutes, not far from cavemen judging by their Leader head...Gomurr said they are also horse people, and they are allies with centaurs... so... give them the centaur!

Border Princes - just some ideas.This guy for swordman that would upgrade to this guy Also this could be BP`s ancient spearman unit, this one for slinger. And this guy for some sort of "berserker" unit, if resizing is an option then some sort of dwarf mercenary?
And where would he fit in?

{> bearded smiley !

 

[drzoidberg]

Certainly a valid argument. However, adding 'flavor units' has been one of the primary focuses of the Warhammer mod since its inception.

No it isn't. There is also value in depicting and symbolising the WH reality in an accurate way. and if it's isn't we might as well play chess. When I wrote "as possible" is exactly that. Dwarves have to have dwarven units, and elves elven. And they have different stats even though they could be unlocked by the same tech. This is what the WH mod is about, not just adding flavors. If that where the case it would only about changing the graphics around, which this mod is a lot more than.

 

[mrtn]

Stormrage, just for your information, the Border Princes are not going into the official mod.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Either way, logic has nothing to say about the development of armor from light to heavy. Logic simply dictates that armor will progress in a fashion that responds to new stimuli - in some cases that means heavier. In others, like Europe after the development of firearms, that eventually meant lighter.

Since firearms in the WH world are pretty primitive, a more relevant example may be the development of the Greek phalanx. Early hoplites in the early Archaic period were very heavily armoured, but armour gradually became lighter until, in the late Classic the traditional hoplite was supplanted by Macedonian-style phalangites, who wore even lighter armour than late hoplites, and dropped the shield to boot.

There were basically two reasons for this development. One, as the heavy infantry went from aristocratic warbands to citizen militias to professional mercenaries, the soldiers had less and less money to spend on fancy gear. Second, as initiative shifted from the individual trooper to commanders, priority shifted from personal survival to the efficient infliction of death, and lighter armour allowed combatants to wield longer lances more effectively. Dropping the shield furthermore allowed the phalangite to exchange the single-handed lance for a sarissa, a 5-6m long pike.