Warmonger for self defence.

[Trav'ling Canuck]

But they'd be okay if I pillaged everything they own?

"You shall never take our size 1 city that's going to rebel in 3 turns you vile wretched baby murderer!!!!!"

"Oh no worries chap we're ignoring it completely! Instead we're headed for your homeland to pillage your industrial heartland and breadbasket and forever ruin your culture and relegate you to fighting stone age barbarians which is all you'll be when I'm done!"

"Oh bless you, Peacebringer."

Yeah, still isn't tracking for me.

Fair point that the warmonger system could be better refined and apply to things like pillaging districts.

I think you may be overestimating, though, the long term impact of pillaging. Improvements get repaired without a builder charge. District repairs and building repairs take longer, but only the Space Port takes a really long time. Anything else is likely to be back up and running in no more than 10 or 20 turns.

The "baby murderer" comment is interesting to me. I do wonder whether people equate "warmonger points" = "how bad I've been"? If so, that may explain a lot of the frustration players experience when they get warmonger points for doing something they feel is justified, like capturing a city from a neighbour who started the war.

I don't think warmonger penalties should be seen in that light. They're not a diplomatic penalty for being a bad person. They're a diplomatic penalty to reflect that the AIs aren't happy that you're growing your empire at the expense of another leader.

 

[Icicle]

Perhaps. But I've had so many late game wars - usually Protectorate Wars when the AI starts going after my city state pal - where I don't really want to capture anything because either the warmonger points aren't worth losing alliances or I'm already on the verge of dark ages and don't need more cities, or there just isn't anything I especially want, and instead I just pillage everything. It seems like the AI never comes back from it and every time I see their lands they're overwhelmed with barbarians and nowhere near as repaired as I'd expect. 10-20 turns is quite a lot late game, it can be the difference between winning and losing the space race, and the reduced culture can be enough to win tourism. And they love me for it. But if I took a city I'd be condemned. It's just silly.

And I think you're right, but if I wasn't deluged with animated leaders flailing their arms and screeching about what a demon I am every time I win a war I think the psychological effect would be a lot less, so it may be an overreaction.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

There's an argument to be made that Warmonger penalties - or better yet, some other diplomatic modifier - should start to apply to a whole bunch of different actions as the game goes on.

There's another thread active right now about farming experience for your ranged and siege troops by firing into defenceless cities. What do we think the 21st century diplomatic reaction would be to an army training it's soldiers by sending them into defenceless cities to shoot civilians?

Pillaging was fair game for most of history. It kind of had to be, as it was usually the only way you had to feed or pay your soldiers. The purposeful destruction of civilian infrastructure unrelated to a direct military objective would likely get a lot more attention today.

 

[Victoria]

would be to an army training it's soldiers by sending them into defenceless cities to shoot civilians?

Well I hate to say it but military training like this does occur. "keep the chaps in shape and all that"

The purposeful destruction of civilian infrastructure unrelated to a direct military objective would likely get a lot more attention today.

Well supply and conditions re a little different now for a 1st world army but drop back into some backwater African states and its just like the good old days.

Both of the above come from discussions over a BBQ with some ex squaddies who have also done merc work in Africa.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Well I hate to say it but military training like this does occur. "keep the chaps in shape and all that"
Well supply and conditions re a little different now for a 1st world army but drop back into some backwater African states and its just like the good old days.

Both of the above come from discussions over a BBQ with some ex squaddies who have also done merc work in Africa.

This is true. "Bad things are being done to people in Africa" doesn't often garner significant media attention or public awareness. And, of course, it's also arguable whether public attention even has any diplomatic impact beyond democratic states, and then only in those rare instances when the voting public decides to latch on to the topic. Good luck writing an algorithm to predict which non-domestic topics would get that degree of attention

 

[Victoria]

public attention even has any diplomatic impact beyond democratic states,

Vietnam?.. Iraq?... you are right, the US is not democratic ... neither is the UK

Bombing Libya was a great way to get rid of old weapons and keep Weapons companies current. It was not about pillaging or oil or XP... but about dumping old weapons and ‘corporate sponsorship ‘

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Vietnam?.. Iraq?... you are right, the US is not democratic ... neither is the UK

Bombing Libya was a great way to get rid of old weapons and keep Weapons companies current. It was not about pillaging or oil or XP... but about dumping old weapons and ‘corporate sponsorship ‘

Libya threatening to drop petrodollar was awfully close to the attack timing. Sounds familiar with a few other places in the middle east too...though unloading old weapon stock certainly has $$$ value in its own right. Seems a good enough reason to model some tech catch-up in the game too, as this sort of behavior went on throughout history any time tech was particularly disparate (North American natives and Africans both had enemies of enemies put guns in their hands before USA was independent, through Malaria was a serious barrier in Africa regardless).

As for pillaging, most pre-industrial armies everywhere lived on supplying from enemy lands by necessity. Powder was IIRC the most likely bottleneck in situations where soldiers actually had to fight, once guns were common. Major supply line logistics was mostly 20th century.

Even most of the impoverished nations in Africa today don't have similar logistics to pre-1800 warfare. They're still using rifles and similar equipment from a few generations ago. If we're talking interior Africa like Rwanda or something then it's not very practical for tanks/conventional WW2 stuff though...but even those armies still have a supply footprint that wouldn't be the same in 1200 or even 1650 so it's not QUITE like "the good old days".

 

[Victoria]

usually Protectorate Wars when the AI starts going after my city state pal - where I don't really want to capture anything because either the warmonger points

I just this minute had a late game Protectorate war where Poland attacked Hattusa
Poland took it a couple of turns later.
I took one of their cities on T184 and took Hattusa on T185 just now.. looks like I got no warmonger points for taking one of their cities

and even better...

They did not really stand a chance against Zulu tanks (Impi what are they?)

 

[Icicle]

I think emergencies may be different/bugged. I was meaning when I declare a war BEFORE they take the CS.

 

[Victoria]

I think emergencies may be different/bugged. I was meaning when I declare a war BEFORE they take the CS.

The situation was

1. They declared war on Hattusa
2. Next turn I declared a protectorate war on them
3. 3 turns later they took it and an Emergency occurred

Now I cannot help the jolly emergency, I tried my best to test this... so spinning those eyes is not helping
I did do it before - why do you need caps?... a bit like a pencil without graphite... pointless

 

[Sherlock]

If you're attacked and don't hurt them they'll just attack you again.

 

[Greywulf]

This is what bugs me about it. If I ravage their lands, burn all their crops, desecrate their places of worship, burn down their libraries, smash their mines, burn their fishing boats, and condemn them to centuries of slowly crawling back from a state of abject misery, likely leaving them with uprisings and violence, I'm a saint.

If I bring them into my prosperous empire where they are, according to the game "Happy" to be there and make them part of a flourishing land of science and culture where all are well fed and taken care of I'm a warmonger.

Something just doesn't ad up here.

Computer game logic..
I do think they could do something about this however...Obviously it would require a lot of pillaging before you get an actual warmonger penalty, but they really should give a penalty for getting overly enthusiastic with this, and maybe more so for pillaging districts ~ how is there no diplomatic penalty for pillaging districts?

The situation was

1. They declared war on Hattusa
2. Next turn I declared a protectorate war on them
3. 3 turns later they took it and an Emergency occurred

Now I cannot help the jolly emergency, I tried my best to test this... so spinning those eyes is not helping
I did do it before - why do you need caps?... a bit like a pencil without graphite... pointless

That's crazy that you cannot join in the emergency for the CS you were trying to protect already..

Clearly this game still has a few bugs to fix.

 

[Victoria]

Dammit so the protectorate war finishes eary, I am suze of Hattusa, Now Jay is attacking Hattusa and I cannot declare a protectorate!
I've made a save so i can report, but I know some type of 30 turn lock goes on the CS when an emergency happens... damn coders

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Dammit so the protectorate war finishes eary, I am suze of Hattusa, Now Jay is attacking Hattusa and I cannot declare a protectorate!
I've made a save so i can report, but I know some type of 30 turn lock goes on the CS when an emergency happens... damn coders

View attachment 497926

Thanks for the reports, Victoria.

All these needless complications. Just go back to the Civ 5 rule that you can't declare war on a City State without also declaring on its suzerain, please, Firaxis. All these other systems create complexities you'll never be able to account for properly in the code. Plus, you're hurting the AI, which can't properly account for the follow on impacts of attacking a City State, whether that's the ability to retain Loyalty over it, the ability of the human player to intervene, the impact of triggering an emergency, etc.

My personal favourite head shaking moment is when an AI takes a City State that will Loyalty flip away from them in less than 5 turns, but another AI civ with no ability to intervene accepts an Emergency against the first civ, giving the captured City State full Loyalty for 30 and giving them a bucket load of money. If they were playing teams it'd be a great way to boost your ally

 

[Browd]

Just go back to the Civ 5 rule that you can't declare war on a City State without also declaring on its suzerain, please, Firaxis.

That is not the rule in Civ V. Perhaps that is how it works under the ruleset of some Civ V mods, but not the unmodded game as designed by Firaxis. If you DOW a CS, its ally may send a demand that you make peace, but you are free to reply to the effect that your affairs are none of their business. The ally may choose to DOW you in return (in which case they are the aggressor, just as a Civ VI suzerain would be in the same circumstances), but the CS's ally usually will just stay grumpy and not DOW you.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It was and IS an awkward implementation though. "Suzerain" directly implies that this nation will be protected by its overlord, and that foreign challenges/attacks go through the overlord.

Civ 5/6 might as well call them wagnaggles. This would be a more legit term for what happens. Unlike "Suzerain" there is no anticipated outcome commonly associated with "wagnaggle", so wagnaggle is actually LESS misleading.

Time to become the wagnaggle of Yerevan! Better not mess with them or I will give you a sternly worded letter, and only declare AFTER your army stuffs their city like a turkey!