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Warmongers, lookie here please.

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by WickedSmurf, Aug 22, 2003.

  1. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    A Despotic GA can work well, but you'll have to do alot micromanagement to get the most of it - your city governors have no idea what "Standard Tile Penalty" means.

    (It means that you, under Despotism and Anarchy, get -1 penalty on food/shields/commerce on each tile that would otherwise have produced three or more. Another way to think of it is that it removes the third item of food/shields/commerce from each tile, if present.)

    Egypt's wonderful for early warmaking, provided you don't start in the middle of a jungle or have truly extreme amounts of mountains around your start location. Still, I've won from a Jungle start as Egypt, thanks to li'l line of hills that ran to Rome ...
     
  2. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    My last great military success on a huge Pangea. Emperor, was as the Zulu. Use your scouts to snatch up goody huts, and find your first two enemies. Pilliage, destroy, plus overwhelm your opponent's city's defenders with impi, who contimuously retreat to stack up and heal. destroy your first two enemies swiftly, (first with impi, second with swords) and the world is staged for the taking.
    You give up a good golden age, but the blitzkreig of your two nearest neighbors is worth it. Eventually switch to monarchy, and stay in it until communism.
    Your multitudes of impi work great as defenders and garrisons running throughout your empire, and like a scab rushing to harden any bleeding of the empire. During this time be building knights, cannon, and pikemen/musketmen. Even up to these wars, your impi provide an awesome defense force, (now mostly made up of elite war survivors who retreat almost all the time if they are going to lose).
    Next wave will take out your next neighbor, maybe 2, and then you make a beeline in your tech advisor screen (after nationalism) for military tradition. Get cavalry, and the game is pretty much over. Don't be afraid to raze, and always have a steady supply of settlers ;)
     
  3. Darkness

    Darkness Shadow creature

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    China and Japan are my favourite warmongering civs. They both have solid traits for warmongering and the Rider and the Samurai are killer UU's.
     
  4. handy900

    handy900 Deity

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    I'll second China. On a large/huge map the Rider is a great UU.
     
  5. Brohz

    Brohz Confused

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    My firs coice for a warmongering civ is Persia, because I always use the inmortals to expand until half of the middle ages, then I sign peace with everybody and change my government to democracy. Then the industrious trait is very useful, becuse the railroads are built fast. The scientific trait is useful too, because of the free techs and because when I conquer a new city I rush a half price library. With the industrial age units, you can get a big army and navy, so is less probable that smeone declares war to you.
     
  6. JustBen

    JustBen Prince

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    Yeah, the Chinese Riders are hard-core. They've got to be the ultimate warmongers.

    Persia and the Ottomans are also excellent, but I'd be really hard pressed to argue that a non-Militaristic civ is the best at warmaking.

    Germany turns out to be a really interesting case -- its UU doesn't show up till it's almost too late (except maybe on Emperor/Deity), but it also starts with the two basic Ancient Age military units.

    The Vikings seem to do what they do exceptionally well; I just can't vouch for them personally.
     
  7. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    I also had a great victory on a huge map 15 opponents with Germany on emporer. Those panzers were so much fun to play with, the 3 blitz and the outmaneuvering of Mongol and Egyptian tanks was fun I'll never forget.
     
  8. Darkness

    Darkness Shadow creature

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    Why?

    I agree about the Persians, but the Ottomans are great for all out warmongering!
    The reason for this is that the Sipahi is easily the best UU in the game.
    Just bee-line to MT and then mass upgrade your horsemen to Sipahi and you can handle every unit before infantry. Infantry will inflict some pretty heavy losses, but you can use artillery to weaken them...
    Maybe you won't get as much promotions without the militaristic trait, but the extra two points on offense easily compensate for that.
     
  9. JustBen

    JustBen Prince

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    Best UU in the game? A distinct possibility. Easily the best UU in the game? No way. Immortals, Panzers, and Ansar Warriors are all just too far above their peer units to suggest that the Sipahi is above reproach.

    We're not discussing the best UU in the game, mind you. We're talking about the best warmongering civ. A lot is going to go into that; more than just your 1-2 wars you fight under the UU. Militaristic gives you those supercheap Barracks at the beginning of the game, which improve your Ancient Age warmaking prospects significantly. Improved promotion rates get you more Great Leaders, giving you Armies to make you stronger and Wonders to keep your core focused on military production.

    Face it: the Chinese have too much going for them. Cheap Barracks. Double-speed road construction. A top-tier UU. A perfecty timed Golden Age. I'm not saying they're the best civ in the game -- just the best at fighting lots and lots of wars.
     
  10. zeeter

    zeeter Emperor

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    I think that Rome gets a bad rap on this forum. To me, it is very underrated. The Roman UU comes relatively early. Not so early as the Babylonians who get theirs before they have enough infrastructure to mass produce them. And not so late that the borders are set in stone. To me, the time is perfect for the Romans. Plus, as soon as they win a battle with the Legionaires they go into a Golden Age. Not bad for only having two or three advances completed.
    As for the other UU's that come later for different civs, I find them to be useful, but not as useful as the Legion. The upgrades are very quick after a while, yet the Legion's replacement, the Midieval Infantry, is in some regards not even an upgrade. I can have an advantage with the Ottomans over the Americans, but soon the Americans can get Tanks and destroy me. The legions, OTOH, are useful right up until the point that Musketmen enter the game. Not bad considering that I've used them from Iron Working until Gunpowder.
     
  11. SolarFlare

    SolarFlare Privateer at large

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    If you're talking about longest duration of potency, I'd have to go with the Viking's berserker. Those guys are powerful for an era and a half, not to mention the amphibious capabilities. I would bet this is the UU whose effectiveness lasts the longest. But at this point, we're a bit off topic.
     
  12. zeeter

    zeeter Emperor

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    I don't think it is off-topic. If you want to be a warmonger, then the UU has a lot to do with that. I choose the Romans because their UU gives me a boost right up until Gunpowder. What a way to be a warmonger when you can still use your UU an era and a half later? With most other UU's, the window of opportunity is too small.
     
  13. DAKjungF

    DAKjungF Khalif of the Box

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    Civ wise is the Vikings the best, their UU is the killer of killers who think to kill other UUs. ;)

    Going purely for trait, I'd say industrious and religious. Changing back and forth from republic/democracy to monarchy/communism this instant is great! Industrious is for, as already said, to build the intensive road network required, along with a more speedy construction of those pesky mines which you never get enough of... :)
     
  14. asabahi

    asabahi Warlord

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    I don't think the appearnce time of the UU is that important if you are going to go to war early. The Persians are the best civ for early domination type victory. Build ten immortals and attack. Your golden age kicks off, and even at monarch you can get two to three ancient wonders, including the Great Lib. which strengthens your chances at a domination or conquest victory. Immortals are so powerfull of a UU that no civ really has a chance against the perisans in the ancient and early middle ages.
     
  15. SolarFlare

    SolarFlare Privateer at large

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    But the point is, that on a huge map, too early a UU will only get you so much territory. Take for instance the Ottomans, which I seem to get the idea that many people here have taken a liking to. By the time Military Tradition rolls around, allowing for Sipahi, the expansion phase of the game has come to an end, and the production phase of the game has taken full speed. This has two effects: Sipahis will be cranked out faster because cities will focus on military facets and not expansion, and the golden age during the production phase means your core cities will get up to full power easily. With an early UU such as the immortals (why is it called "Immortals," instead of "Immortal"?), you may reach iron working when you only have two or three cities. So you get your golden age and conquer a bunch of cities: you expand faster, which is the goal of the expansion phase. But during the production phase your infrastructure is so severely weakened because you neglected the basics in the ancient age that your empire is not as strong as it would otherwise have been. In terms of quantitative land gained, later UUs rule there as well. The sipahi (or the rider for that matter) gains more land because they are faster, and thus can travel further. A UU even with one movement point can still reach farther lands because by the later ages, more roads and rails are built. And with more cities cranking out the units, you will have more UUs attacking more targets. So, more total land. With an early UU such as the immortals you will have a great early advantage, no question. But look at Persia and the Ottomans during the late industrial era, after both UUs effectiveness and golden ages have worn off. The civ with the later golden age is ahead, on average. You can also have too late a golden age, such as the Americans. By the modern ages, the game has reached a military phase, where all nations undergo massive military buildups, because they have nothing better to do. Improvement building is moving faster than science invents city improvements to build. At this point, it is too late to have a great golden age because of the nature of the world. So you see, the best golden age is one that allows a civ to reach its fullest potential during the production phase. The best UU is not only a powerful offensive unit, but also one that triggers the golden age at the above specified time. The rider and sipahi both, as well as others, fall into this class.
     
  16. MadScot

    MadScot Brandy's back!

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    Because the unit of the Persian army was called "The Immortals" as it refers to the 10,000 man strength being continuously maintained. So it seemed as if the members of the unit never died, as there were always 10,000 of them. Supposedly.
     
  17. WickedSmurf

    WickedSmurf pr0

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    As for UUs as GA-triggers... I usually play Egypt and since I don't want my GA to be more or less wasted under despotic rule I build up around a dozen of War Chariots and go barbhunting to produce vets and elites. :) Then, later in the game and I want my GA, I just pick out a weakened enemy unit and taa-daa. GA at my convenience. The warchariot is cheap to build but there are better options, it is not very good imho...
     
  18. Darkness

    Darkness Shadow creature

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    I never said the Ottomans are the best civ for all out warmongering, that's the Chinese and the Japanese IMHO. I just said don't dismiss them because they're not militaristic.

    OT:

    And I still stand by my opinion the Sipahi is easily the best unit in the game. It dominates the entire middle ages (if you bee-line for military tradition, which I strongly suggest) and it's extra 2 points on offense also make the Sipahi capable to kill infantry dependably, so it is also very capable of domination at least the early industrial age, and supported by infantry, also the late industrial age. Plus it triggeres your GA at the best possible time, the MA.

    As for the other three UU's you've mentioned:
    Let's compare them ro the Sipahi:
    Immortal: The best unit of the AA, obviously. But when knights come into the picture Immortals lose much of their effectiveness, because they're way too slow to prevent being outmanouvred. Also Immortals trigger your GA often (despotism) too soon. Yes, you can wait, but then your window of opportunity becomes rather small, because when you get a new government, the armour of the knights usually already shines at the horizon.
    The Sipahi is as dominant in its' era as the immortal is in the AA and has 3 movement compared to the immortals 1 movement and triggers the GA at a better time.
    So the SIpahi beats the Immortal by a landslide.

    Panzer: Simply arrives too late in the game. The game is often already decided in the end of the AA (except on the highest levels). And it is, IMHO, not as dominant in its' era as the Sipahi. Plus the GA comes very late, maybe you can catch up to the AI on the higher levels, but then they probably are already strong enough to withstand your panzers.
    Sipahi beats Panzer by a slightly smaller landslide.

    Ansar warrior: Great unit, I love its extra movement, but it is still a light knight and you'll need them in large numbers. The GA comes at an excellent time, early MA. But the Ansar warrior simply does not dominate like the Sipahi does, it lacks raw power for that.
    Sipahi beats Ansar Warrior by an again slightly smaller landslide.

    So, concluding, IMHO, the Sipahi is still easily the best unit in the game (by quite a large margin).
     
  19. killerloop

    killerloop Warlord

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    I agree with you WickedSmurf. I love playing Egypt in warmonger diety games. Especially at deity (huge map, <8 civs) Egypt is my favorite Civ with its very early available UU. Early Warmongering is almost a prerequisite to survive & win, although warmongering is not my preferred play style.
     
  20. SolarFlare

    SolarFlare Privateer at large

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    Immortals become obsolete even before chivalry. In PTW, once feudalism is attained, medieval infantry have the same stats.
     

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