if you can expand to 5 cities while Shenging maybe. You still loose hammers/commerce you would get by founding cities earlier, which somewhat snowballs further...
the only point Shenge has over settlers is extremely early GPP
Warmongers, which wonders do you typically build?
- Thread starter Razzlesnaff
- Start date
if you can expand to 5 cities while Shenging maybe. You still loose hammers/commerce you would get by founding cities earlier, which somewhat snowballs further...
the only point Shenge has over settlers is extremely early GPP
The only thing I go for without fail is the Statue of Zeus. If a large empire manages to get this it will become a major pain in the ass to burn it to the ground.
But early game you should be going exclusively for units and take cities/land by force. Mid to late game I'd say wonders that increase your base commerce are the most useful since you should have quite a bit of land and units which means tons of maintenance.
EDIT: On the note of stone henge: a lot of people like to say that if you build 4 monuments it recoups it's cost, but that's patently untrue as it will put you about a settler and a worker behind your competition once you finish it. Particularly if you're a war monger your second city is crucial as it will produce much of your initial army. The cap, second and third cities can get you about 20 units quite quickly which is more than enough to kill people that have decided to plod along and go for infrastructure/the long view. The opportunity cost of stone henge is so great that I have never built it in a free for all without planting my cap on stone and teching masonry.
But early game you should be going exclusively for units and take cities/land by force. Mid to late game I'd say wonders that increase your base commerce are the most useful since you should have quite a bit of land and units which means tons of maintenance.
EDIT: On the note of stone henge: a lot of people like to say that if you build 4 monuments it recoups it's cost, but that's patently untrue as it will put you about a settler and a worker behind your competition once you finish it. Particularly if you're a war monger your second city is crucial as it will produce much of your initial army. The cap, second and third cities can get you about 20 units quite quickly which is more than enough to kill people that have decided to plod along and go for infrastructure/the long view. The opportunity cost of stone henge is so great that I have never built it in a free for all without planting my cap on stone and teching masonry.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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If you're playing at emperor or possibly immortal or below, you can get a fast 2nd city out near the AI and use your first worker to chop it there (especially if you have mysticism to start). This can even result in a flipped city on top of the blockage. Pretty comical.
I definitely tend to prefer bashing heads, and I find I regularly build the following wonders:
Kremlin - one of the most important to me. I often beeline communism in the later game for state property, since it's such a powerful war civic, and Kremlin allows me to shut down tech in a lot of games after assembly line or perhaps industrialism while buying my way to success.
The others I find I build somewhat regularly are below, although I think they're more indirectly associated with warmongering. These are more about maintaining a decent economy while beating up the AI.
Taj - I don't think anyone mentioned this, but I find tremendous power in using Taj and a great person for a 20 (30 if MoM) turn golden age. Depending on the game, I'll often go lib-nat-Taj, and use the 20/30 turn golden age to speed toward cannons or rifles, which lets me have a meaningful window with a military tech advantage. One of my favorite strategies.
GW - I love this for the settled spy - it means minimum 3 and maybe as many as 7-8 techs for free, allowing me to lower the research bar to pay for a big military.
I also will often build great library, since aesthetics is trade bait at higher levels and Lit also unlocks HE, which is critical for warmongers. Why not build it at that point.
If we're all on one landmass, I love statue for all those free specialists, again, it really helps the economy maintain itself with a large army.
Kremlin - one of the most important to me. I often beeline communism in the later game for state property, since it's such a powerful war civic, and Kremlin allows me to shut down tech in a lot of games after assembly line or perhaps industrialism while buying my way to success.
The others I find I build somewhat regularly are below, although I think they're more indirectly associated with warmongering. These are more about maintaining a decent economy while beating up the AI.
Taj - I don't think anyone mentioned this, but I find tremendous power in using Taj and a great person for a 20 (30 if MoM) turn golden age. Depending on the game, I'll often go lib-nat-Taj, and use the 20/30 turn golden age to speed toward cannons or rifles, which lets me have a meaningful window with a military tech advantage. One of my favorite strategies.
GW - I love this for the settled spy - it means minimum 3 and maybe as many as 7-8 techs for free, allowing me to lower the research bar to pay for a big military.
I also will often build great library, since aesthetics is trade bait at higher levels and Lit also unlocks HE, which is critical for warmongers. Why not build it at that point.
If we're all on one landmass, I love statue for all those free specialists, again, it really helps the economy maintain itself with a large army.
capnvonbaron
Democratia gladii
GWall: Not necessary. You can use barbs to your advantage, get some early CR3s or the likes.
'mids: Not necessary. The gov't civics don't really help warmongering much, except HR which you get early enough through trades anyways.
Oracle: Not necessary. Nice for the free tech, but unless you already start down the mystisicm path, have marble, and are industrious, you are better to get alphabet quickly and just trade for backfill.
Stonehenge: I'll maybe build it if I'm Ramses (because hey... a free UB in every city? SOLD!
) but otherwise skip it. Monuments don't cost much if you need to border-pop a city. I dunno about other civvers, but I usually just skip the monuments if I have a religion anyways.
Gardens: These I like for the health boost and +1pop, especially if I have a bunch of cities up and operating. Again though, don't cry if you don't get it.
ChItza: I tend not to build it, but it is nice to have in case of counter-attacks/sneak-attacks. If you leverage your troops right, though, its unneeded IMO.
Mausolleum: I like MoM, personally. It can really help for a good boost, especially around the time Taj comes around. I've been known to collect a half-dozen GPs, rush Taj with a GE, then use two GP and another three GP (which is great if you have something dumb like two prophets, two artists, and a spy) for second and third GAs. Viola, 45 turns of GA madness. Wanna know how many cannons+riflemen+cavs one can spew out over that many turns?
Taj: see above
Pentagon: must have
all war-related national wonders: must have, but build them with a goal in mind, ie something like HE+M.Academy in one city, IW+Settled GGs+RedX in a coastal city, etc.
'mids: Not necessary. The gov't civics don't really help warmongering much, except HR which you get early enough through trades anyways.
Oracle: Not necessary. Nice for the free tech, but unless you already start down the mystisicm path, have marble, and are industrious, you are better to get alphabet quickly and just trade for backfill.
Stonehenge: I'll maybe build it if I'm Ramses (because hey... a free UB in every city? SOLD!
) but otherwise skip it. Monuments don't cost much if you need to border-pop a city. I dunno about other civvers, but I usually just skip the monuments if I have a religion anyways.Gardens: These I like for the health boost and +1pop, especially if I have a bunch of cities up and operating. Again though, don't cry if you don't get it.
ChItza: I tend not to build it, but it is nice to have in case of counter-attacks/sneak-attacks. If you leverage your troops right, though, its unneeded IMO.
Mausolleum: I like MoM, personally. It can really help for a good boost, especially around the time Taj comes around. I've been known to collect a half-dozen GPs, rush Taj with a GE, then use two GP and another three GP (which is great if you have something dumb like two prophets, two artists, and a spy) for second and third GAs. Viola, 45 turns of GA madness. Wanna know how many cannons+riflemen+cavs one can spew out over that many turns?
Taj: see above
Pentagon: must have
all war-related national wonders: must have, but build them with a goal in mind, ie something like HE+M.Academy in one city, IW+Settled GGs+RedX in a coastal city, etc.
If you play bellow your skill level for no purpose of roleplay/demonstartion games are comical... Agreed.
If you plan to be a warmonger from a few turns in, try to build the Statue of Zeus. If a strong rival builds this, you WILL get screwed by war weariness badly more often than not.
EDIT: Not many people mentioned this one and it's one of the best for warmongers.
EDIT: Not many people mentioned this one and it's one of the best for warmongers.
SlipperyJim
Prince
When I really want to bash some heads, I usually skip early wonders. Or to put it another way, I'll be too busy building the "Horde of Axemen" world wonder which gives me a second capital for free. 
Stonehenge, the Great Wall, and the Pyramids are all nice. However, as UWHabs wrote, it's usually better for a warmonger to let a neighbor build those wonders and then take them by force. In the recent NCXXIII game, for example, Khmer built the Wall, and Sumer built the Henge. Meanwhile, I built the "Mob of War Chariots" wonder, which gave me all of the above plus two more capital cities!
Later in the game, I'd say that the Statue of Zeus and the Apostolic Palace are both great wonders for the warmonger. It's not that I really want to have them. Rather, I really don't want the AIs to have them, so I build them myself if possible.
Even later in the game, I like these wonders:
But I agree that the general rule for a warmonger should be "less is more" when it comes to world wonders. Why spend a bunch of hammers that could be used to build up your military? Let someone else build the wonders, and then conquer them!
Stonehenge, the Great Wall, and the Pyramids are all nice. However, as UWHabs wrote, it's usually better for a warmonger to let a neighbor build those wonders and then take them by force. In the recent NCXXIII game, for example, Khmer built the Wall, and Sumer built the Henge. Meanwhile, I built the "Mob of War Chariots" wonder, which gave me all of the above plus two more capital cities!
Later in the game, I'd say that the Statue of Zeus and the Apostolic Palace are both great wonders for the warmonger. It's not that I really want to have them. Rather, I really don't want the AIs to have them, so I build them myself if possible.
Even later in the game, I like these wonders:
- Taj -- Golden Age is always nice
- Pentagon -- 'nuff said
- Kremlin -- massive whipping (great for the Aztecs) and rush-buying
- Cristo Redentor -- because micromanaging civics can be very useful to a warmonger
- the "culture" wonders (Broadway, Rock & Roll, Hollywood) -- good trade fodder, and the extra happiness is always nice
But I agree that the general rule for a warmonger should be "less is more" when it comes to world wonders. Why spend a bunch of hammers that could be used to build up your military? Let someone else build the wonders, and then conquer them!
I'd be interested in getting people's thoughts on the merits of SoZ. I used to think I needed to build it to avoid the AI having it, but I've found it has a meaningful impact on very few of my games. Only rarely will an AI have it that also has a strong enough empire to stop me from taking it. I typically see some industrious weakling like Louis build it, and wars with those types don't usually last long.
Early on in BtS, I thought it would be great to protect me against an AI war, except that war weariness is completely nonexistent for AIs, so it's useless as an offensive tool, and so rarely impacts me against an AI on the defensive that I never really bother to build it.
SlipperyJim
Prince
It's about 50/50 for me. In approximately half of my games, the SoZ will be built by some pushover civ. I can capture it within the first few turns of the war, so no big deal.michmbk said:
However, in the other half of my games, the SoZ will be built in some AI capital that's deep in the heart of another continent. I have to fight my way through numerous cities before I can finally get to it. At that point, I'm really wishing that I had built the bloody thing....
So it's situational for me. Yeah, I can live without the SoZ. But I really like to take it, just because it can be such a pain in the tuchus.
Artichoker
Emperor
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There is a very good window of time at approximately 250 BC or so when there is a good chance of building wonders, assuming that you have either Stone or Marble.
The choice of wonders should definitely reflect what special resources you have available.
The important thing to remember is that you don't really become a warmonger until you actually start massing military units. Before that time, anything is fair game.
The choice of wonders should definitely reflect what special resources you have available.
The important thing to remember is that you don't really become a warmonger until you actually start massing military units. Before that time, anything is fair game.
The best cure to wonder addiction is to play a game where you strictly build no wonders at all, it's probably the fastest way to gauge to find out where any weak spots are in your game and will also help improve it quickly.
You can start building wonders again later
Best answer yet.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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But, Immortal actually IS my level. And I'm guessing people at lower levels could pull this trick off without actually advancing their skill to higher levels, so it's a good tactic to know.
Edit:
It's possible to become so used to NOT building wonders that you start missing when they'd actually be useful
Jamuka
Warlord
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It's possible to become so used to NOT building wonders that you start missing when they'd actually be useful
Heh, I think I've gone for such long stretches without building any wonders it feels like I'd forgotten they exist. I've started to like the early marble wonders though. Temple of Artemis and the Oracle seem to really help things get going. There never seems to be a good time to research masonry though...
Btw, anybody know if the AI takes the Statue of Zeus into account when DoW or signing peace? directly or indirectly?
Negator_UK
King
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Most Important military wonder for me is HE. I get it going ASAP and only rarely take it off military production. My game losses have shot down since I started building a manly military as standard operating procedure. Moai occasionally gets similar treatment, but can't always make it happen.
Otherwise I like GLib, GLC for tech and SH and Parthenon for aggressive culture projection. SoZ is also a good culture wall and preventing the AI from getting it stops it increasing the reduce the war weariness effect on you. (Basically the old high culture wonders that can double their output in 1200-1400- AD cos you built them so early).
Finally the Pyramids brings you the ability for an early police state should you want to get flash...
Don't forget though, you can't wage war with just wonders, you need TROOPS FIRST, wonders can come second, if ever.
Wonders that aren't much military use to me are westpoint and pentagon - they both come too late and cost too much - I've either won already by then (more or less) or the pentagon has been built by the AI. Mind you I play on Normal speed, which makes late game wars a bit difficult compared to slower speeds (wrt long range logistics).
Otherwise I like GLib, GLC for tech and SH and Parthenon for aggressive culture projection. SoZ is also a good culture wall and preventing the AI from getting it stops it increasing the reduce the war weariness effect on you. (Basically the old high culture wonders that can double their output in 1200-1400- AD cos you built them so early).
Finally the Pyramids brings you the ability for an early police state should you want to get flash...
Don't forget though, you can't wage war with just wonders, you need TROOPS FIRST, wonders can come second, if ever.
Wonders that aren't much military use to me are westpoint and pentagon - they both come too late and cost too much - I've either won already by then (more or less) or the pentagon has been built by the AI. Mind you I play on Normal speed, which makes late game wars a bit difficult compared to slower speeds (wrt long range logistics).
FlyinJohnnyL
You need more workers....
This thread got me thinking. If you build a 2nd city, then build a monument there while building Henge in the capital (say you're shooting for failure cash, but what they hey you get the wonder), will that monument that was built before Henge still disappear when Henge obsoletes?
Ghpstage
Deity
As far as I remember Henge obsoleted at the same time as monuments in all versions of Civ 4, it's certainly the case in BTs
Kerran
Chieftain
As far as I remember Henge obsoleted at the same time as monuments in all versions of Civ 4, it's certainly the case in BTs
The effect obsoletes yes, but if you built the monument manually (as opposed to getting it via SH) it will remain and produce ... hm, what? culture? I'm pretty sure the CHA happiness obsoletes at Astro as well ...
And the answer would be that yes, the game keeps track of which Monuments were built manually and which spawned from SH (for example, the SH monuments won't double their culture after 1000 years).
Learningciv
Warlord
If I have Ivory I chop out Statue of Zues, often in a city that will be under cultural pressure from someone who isn't in my early attack plans.
Most games (90%) I build Great Library but if I don't have marble I may skip it. I only build it in a city I know I will be running 2 scientists in until after Education. This allows me to use my 3rd GS to bulp Philo and my 4th one to bulb a big chuck of Education. After liberlism I tend to swap to Caste System with guilds/chem and a dedicated GP farm takes over my GP generation.
My favourite wonders to capture are Pyramids (the earlier the better) as specialists tend to dig me out of my crashed economies and Statue of Zues if I didn't build it.
Most games (90%) I build Great Library but if I don't have marble I may skip it. I only build it in a city I know I will be running 2 scientists in until after Education. This allows me to use my 3rd GS to bulp Philo and my 4th one to bulb a big chuck of Education. After liberlism I tend to swap to Caste System with guilds/chem and a dedicated GP farm takes over my GP generation.
My favourite wonders to capture are Pyramids (the earlier the better) as specialists tend to dig me out of my crashed economies and Statue of Zues if I didn't build it.
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