Warriors vs. scouts vs. slingers discussion

[yung.carl.jung]

I would argue missing 8 turns of culture is an abhorrent decision and should pretty much never be made. I think getting Political Philosophy 8 turns earlier, same for governor and plaza, has absolutely game-breaking consequences. The few Eurekahs/Inspos I skip in my games are ones that cost insane amounts of investment or are way too far off from any normal build-path.. Like getting 3 biplanes just for one Eurekah.

Though I agree you definitely can skip Craftsmanship Inspo and still be okay. It might even be conductive to winning some Deity games, as early army is key. But it is never conductive to winning earlier / winning optimally.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

That's the whole point.
Those early boosts are easy to get and get you to PP faster.
The Faster to PP the better.
Of course this gets you to Feudalism Faster which is what most players want once they realize how strong it is.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Even in my science games the most important benchmarks are always the four governments, without fail. Culture and Production really are the two important ressources of Civ 6, with science only taking 3rd place, and faith and gold lagging behind. Food is not even on the list.

With Civ 5 I feel like it was the opposite, where science was mostly weighed higher than culture and even culture victories needed a decent amount of science. In Civ 6, science victories need an insane amount of culture.

 

[Archon_Wing]

strong disagree there. with any civ that doesn't get a boost to culture you won't even be getting craftsmanship until much too late, and you want to build units early.

You just have to actually try it as Rome. The timing to get any inspiration for them is much tighter, since they can get to PP like 10-15 turns earlier. You save up less turns.

I think that's where our major disagreement is, you don't value scouting (be that with a warrior, slinger or scout, doesn't matter really) as high as I do, because you see scouting as reliant on Map RNG (which is correct, but not a strong argument).

Yea sure, w/e.

why would I ever go builder first only to then get craftsmanship at like t25 and build warriors when really I want to have my warriors out already and start on settlers. It just makes zero sense to me.

Because you're building them 33% slower. You don't need that many warriors before Craftsmanship; just enough to find a 2nd city spot and defend. If it's safe enough I also build a scout before craftsmanship too. If there's maps where 9 turns matter, there's also plenty of maps where I just find a cultural CS next door too.

I've genuinely never seen anyone advocate for builder first and I've also not seen it from anyone streaming / on YouTube. I would say it's fairly niche seeing as how scout first or warrior first are the start in 90% of all deity games.

I recall Lily_lancer and civtrader6 doing it; and sometimes Victoria though she explains a lot of openings.

 

[The Highwayman]

I wish CivTrader6 posted more youtube videos or twitch streamed. I learned so much from those early vanilla videos. The only way I could justify builder first if there are Animal Husbandry and/or Mining luxes available instantly. Or if the land is so bad I need to get that wheat farm and plains hill mine going. But generally the map knowledge and everything that goes with exploration is so vital I cannot pass up the scout.

 

[Archon_Wing]

From many years of reading these forums, there really is no correct answer. Some strong players prefer builder, others prefer scout. There are even starts that have monuments. I tend to agree with those that understand all of them. Map settings also make it different as well.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I know that Wars have started over this First Build Debate.
One guy in here swears by Slinger First no matter what!
I've been pretty sold on Builder First in most of my games for the last 6 months or so.
It's the times that the 3 Barb Camps spawn nearby and Barb Horseman are all around me that I regret it.
I notice many strong players won't play that game out and they just reroll.
Personally I like to punch my way out.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

From many years of reading these forums, there really is no correct answer. Some strong players prefer builder, others prefer scout. There are even starts that have monuments. I tend to agree with those that understand all of them. Map settings also make it different as well.

I think we're pretty much in agreement that builder first can be really, good, especially if you have 3 mines and/or pastures, and it could also be good in other situations. whether it's common or "optimal" I don't really care. I will actually be trying it out both as China and as Rome

 

[The Highwayman]

I think the Mayans may make a strong case for builder first or second with their housing trait.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I think we're pretty much in agreement that builder first can be really, good, especially if you have 3 mines and/or pastures, and it could also be good in other situations. whether it's common or "optimal" I don't really care. I will actually be trying it out both as China and as Rome

I still think you might be disappointed as Rome, but give it a shot.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Even though it has been discussed endlessly I still find it interesting.
I went back and read some threads about the First Build Topic.
One player made an interesting statement about Slinger First.
Expansion through Conquest is easier than Expansion through Settlers.
Seems solid if you have close enough neighbors.
I used to roll all the CS's near me until it caused massive DoWs.

 

[Zeno Baroda]

Hi guys..

This looks like a casual topic but it actually isn't.

Thanks for all inputs. You guys really research well and thorough too.

I will definitely try out these strategies ( esp with the scouts ) in my next game.

Here's my 2 ¢ :

All discussed options depend entirely on chance !

Lucky scenario opportunity

The land around my city and the path to the neighbouring city is flat or has less travel obstructions. So my units can move faster.

I decided to capture a city state quickly instead of building a second city. Its faster than investing in turns for a settler.
So every production turn churns out a slinger for me. This is also an insurance in case of early raids by neighbour civs ( Persians and Aztecs are notorious )
Either a warrior or a slinger locates a city state or another civ for that matter.
All slingers home in to the target
Choose 'Faith & Yield' when Policy cards are revealed. The gold will help to upgrade the slingers.
Now I have 5 slingers and a warrior surrounding my target. Wait until they queue up along the targets border. Do not enter as when declaring war is chosen, they get flung out. Move your warrior away from the scene. If they are wiped out you cannot take the city eventually ( how many times has that happened to stupid me ...).
Choose Archery when it comes up for research
Hit them ! After some turns, before your slingers hurl, check, ... if upgrades are available choose that over an attack action. When target defence turns yellow, your chances are good. Keep your next slinger within the borders of your first city.

If your targets defence turns red, return a slinger back to your home city and keep the attack ongoing with the others.
By now you should have Archery researched. Upgrade your waiting slinger and move out. Continue moving back the returning initial slinger.
If your slingers surround the target completely and their defence remains weak ( no opposing reaction occurs ), ensure that a slinger moves out to clear a path for your warrior, even if it means losing a turn for that slinger. Ensure that your warrior has maximum strength and they are not healing.

You may take the city as it is or in some cases your Archer will arrive to lend support.
Nice thing about this is when taken, you now have a lot of upgrade-ready slingers to become archers. Hence the reason for your Policy-card choice earlier.
With a bunch of archers you can now move towards the next city state or civ state and take that too. And the next one too. You now have three or four cities without having to produce a settler
If the next city presents a problem with their stronger-researched units, retreat and make peace. You've probably taken their capital already. Wait for ten turns until you've researched Machinery. Upgrade all your Archers to Crossbowmen and hit them again. Keep all of them as late as possible and then upgrade them again after Ballistics to Field Cannon. Then start your marauding again or at least you have a very good defence by then.
A slight variation : When your slingers are busy bombarding, extend your city border by purchasing one tile towards the target. Save the gold for later upgrades. Returning slingers will have less ground to cover to receive the upgrade during mid-attack.

Again, this is a lucky scenario.

Most times the situation may be more challenging.

On level 5 and below, this has worked well for me. Sometimes an entire civ gets taken out with just my archers. Research Wheel and get a Heavy chariot soonest. The only unit to take your third or fourth city is that only warrior. The AI will always go for them when they have a chance. Chariots will move faster too.

On level 6 the AI gives a f ****** g boost to your opponents. Warriors and Spearmen will spawn often even when their defence is below red !!

Overall my experience for these scenario for level 5 and below gets 85 % success
Level 6 is a whole new ball game with only perhaps 50 % joy.

Unlucky scenarios

All your slingers are out to the target city which is quite a long way away and your home capital is attacked.
The path to your target city is hindered by rivers hills and forests.
The target city capital is located in a spot surrounded by hills and water and there's only a one-tile access to it and your slingers can't hurl more than one tile.
Your warriors are all killed during mid-attack and producing another takes a long time.
Other civ units suddenly appear around the target city and hinder your slingers paths.
On GS, disaster wipes out your units or your only home.

Appreciate all your technical details guys and any comments on this post are welcomed.

Now to try out some other strategy ....

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Slinger rush is a fair strategy, probably best with Amanitore. However you're using your first warrior (I think) to take a city and all your other units to siege so you have no one scouting, which will put you behind in era score/envoys/map knowledge. I think for a Slinger rush it is also feasible to go for a builder first for really early Agoge (delays the rush a bit but saves production cost and gives better yields) or to buy a Scout early and delay the upgrade to Archers (though building a Scout just seems better to me).

In Vanilla I very often did Slinger rushes, though currently I think Warrior rushes are more effective. The problem is that with a warrior rush you're screwed as soon as the AI upgrades some, while having 4 Archers and a few Warriors/War Carts gives you a really strong versatiles army that can be upgraded at many points in the game and can conquer more than just a few early cities. That is why I haven't been doing many Warr rushes lately.

4 Archers (one extra in case someone dies), 4 Warriors (also one extra), 4 War Carts, 2 Horsemen, 2 Catapults, 1 Spearman is the ultimate army to get all of the relevant Eurekahs (having 3 armies, having 3 tanks and having 2 bombards are the ones that I personally miss most often. The 3 Biplanes one I just skip, often times I skip the 2 Caravels Inspo as well). You don't really need any extra war carts or horsemen since these are easily replaced, even in later stages. Archers/Crossbows/Machine Guns without promotions on the other hand are pretty useless, so I prefer getting them early and keeping them safe. Knights/Tanks without promotions are fine.

 

[Zeno Baroda]

yung.carl.jung

All valid points.

You went far into the game.

But for early game strategies, yours are all good to try.
Having Chariots and Spearmen will take time which gives the AI time to upgrade your targets units. If they get archers before the rush, my strategy will be screwed.
This has to done 'blitzkrieg' style .... you know what that means ... haha ...

Thx for sharing.

 

[Monsterzuma]

I would argue missing 8 turns of culture is an abhorrent decision and should pretty much never be made. I think getting Political Philosophy 8 turns earlier, same for governor and plaza, has absolutely game-breaking consequences. The few Eurekahs/Inspos I skip in my games are ones that cost insane amounts of investment or are way too far off from any normal build-path.. Like getting 3 biplanes just for one Eurekah.

Though I agree you definitely can skip Craftsmanship Inspo and still be okay. It might even be conductive to winning some Deity games, as early army is key. But it is never conductive to winning earlier / winning optimally.

It's 8 turns if you have only 2 culture generation per turn total. It could be as few as 2 turns or less if you get culture from several city states and/or the Roman obelisk. Maybe some amber or marble tiles. I maintain that it's not the end of the world, though obviously not something I prefer to do.

Also let me clarify that I fully agree that builder first or second is viable on certain starts. All I said its not a no-brainer like in most civ iterations.

 

[agonistes]

Split off from the "jump to immortal" thread:

I see some people recommending scouts and slingers... Personally I never build these units. Better to beef up your military in the case of a surprise attack. Maybe someone can explain the appeal of both these units to me, compared to warriors, because it kinda escapes me.

Any warriors you build will be swordsmen later, which become extremely powerful when boosted with Oligarchy's +4 strength bonus and (possibly) the dark age card for +5 strength (but no healing outside own territory). And these can make use to the battering ram and siege tower units, thus making them powerhouses at least on par with horsemen.

My current favorite build order is to rush three warriors out of the gate right at the start to get some of that vital early exploration work done, while also strengthening my short term and long term defenses.

Warriors only move slower than unpromoted scouts on flat, open terrain. Their ability to clean up barbarian camps on their own gives them an additional advantage. They're better defended against barbarian attacks.

Yes, they are more expensive than scouts, but long run you don't want to blow resources on scouts first and then on defenses. Better to combine the two in one package.

As for slingers, seems to be a very weak unit with almost no viable uses? Am I missing something? I guess the ability to upgrade them to archers early is worth something, but the warrior -> swordsman upgrade impresses me more.

I agree with you. Its situational of course, but a three warrior start is solid and can deal with most issues.

 

[Casualty of war]

I'm one of those who rarely builds a Scout first. I want to do my scouting with something that can clear a Barb Camp. My build queue is usually determined by starting position food and how quickly I will get to 2 population. The most common start gets you to 2 population in the precise time it takes to make a Slinger, which is also handy to get 40% of Archery. If the start position is heavily skewed from that baseline or the Civ has particularly enticing Unique Units to try for, I might mix it up. But most games it is Slinger into Settler ASAP.

Barbs hate Slingers and will break fortification in their Camps to try to come kick their heads in. If you approach in a way that lets you shoot first, you'll win in a one on one fight.

All that said, I love getting a Scout from a Tribal Village. I just don't want to put Turns worth of Hammers into making one.

Builder start is awesome! If you're still alive by Turn 30.

 

[Bibor]

When I consider slinger first: almost never, but, theres a case to be made if archer UU or rushing ToA, since these can kill barb scouts at least.

when I consider worker first: if I can get +3 production from the improvements, and These would be the best yield tiles I can get.

when I consider settler first: if I get a pop boost from a nearby hut on turns 1-3

When I consider scout first: If I see flat terrain in at least one direction.

otherwise: 3 warriors first becaue barbs can really mess you up.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

otherwise: 3 warriors first because barbs can really mess you up.

Build Order: Warrior x 3 huh?
Sounds interesting.
I'll play a few games trying this out.
I've been really focused on Builder, Settler in most of my games for the last few months.
Perhaps this is better for Warmongering anyway.
I've been playing too nice in the early game these days.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Builder into Settler seems like you would always miss first Golden Age, no? How often do you start with Dark Age / Normal Age / Golden Age?