Was life really that bad in the Soviet Union?

[Lone Wolf]

Every country has its dark side, usually perpetrated by those who are dead and gone.

Yes, in fact many lifes were sacrificed in order for Western prosperity to exict - there was such thing as the horrors of early industrialism, (ever read the old softie Charles Dickens?) colonial exploitation (BTW, the British were the best of colonizers - which, of cource, is not saying much) etc. However, that prosperity does exict, and this is sort of justification for these broken lifes (if any sort of justification is possible here). Stalin's measures did bring some short-term benefits, but did eventually ruin the country. And this is what makes his crimes even more horrible - that they were pointless in the long run.

I certainly do not. I associate Russia with evil, because Russia has done a lot more Evil internationally and nationally than good and more so than any other country, including Germany, Japan or the USA.

Any country has some dark sides, but why exactly Russia has more? The Soviet regime was oppressive, but so were the regimes of Spain, Portugal (Dr. Oliviero Salazar), Nazi Germany etc. Our regime held longer, of cource... Any other examples of Evil Russia had done?

 

[Pokurcz]

This is getting tedious...

But except for the obvious of Killing tens of millions of its own citizens during communism, including some ten million Ukranians, systematically killing Polish intelligentsia, the Warsaw uprising in 1944 incident, imperialisticaly constantly trying to take more land under the guise of spreading communism like Afghanistan, destroying Chechnya, meddling with Ukrain, with Georgia by breaking it up, forcing "communism" upon Half of European subcontinent, killing rebellious people, killing former KGB members for spreading/trying to spread truth of Russian internal affairs blah blah blah

Some might claim that the imperialism under the guise of spreading of "Communism" might be equal to American "spreading of Democracy" through imperialism.
But the "satellite" states of the USA had much more freedom than what the soviet ones had. As other people have mentioned, places like South Korea, Israel, West Germany and Japan have in fact profited greatly from American intervention and help.
Whilst countries like East Germany, Ukraine, Poland and Romania and so on have done the opposite because of Soviet involvement, basically everything has become worse. Like in Poland I believe there where only two things that became improved because of Soviet "Communism", land reform and that literacy went up.

The USA side mostly had a symbiotic relationship whilst the Warsaw Pact was a parasitic one, the USSR being the big Parasite.

Furthermore I would say that the Soviet Union made the USA change in its image, (for the worse) as through a mechanism inherent in the struggle. Not unlike what aggressive Rome did to peaceful Persia, as a result of their struggle changing Persia in to an equally aggressive empire.

American blind hate for "Commies" and overt aggressiveness in several instances like Indochina, was a direct result of the American fear of a spread of communism.

Enslaving half of Europe, screwing up the world, basically is my number one reason.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Hitler controlled more then a half of Europe for a shorter period of time. Napoleon did that too, althrough he was less Evil than Hitler and Stalin...

Besides, the British Empire had nearly a quater of the WORLD under its control! Britain, of cource did some positive things to its colonies - it built rairoads, schools etc., but it did commit a few (or more than a few) atrocities on the controlled population... (Or what do you think about Belgian king Leopold II? He commited nothing but atrocities in Congo).


I consider myself a follower of liberal ideology, I dislike the way Russia is ruled today, but I really can't accept claims that Russia is by far the most Evil nation in the world.

EDIT: Pokurcz, I was not accusing USA in my post. I want you to explain to me why the British Empire is less Evil then the USSR. Enslaving not half on the Europe, but a quarter of the whole WORLD?! What can be worse?!

Disclaimer: I do not consider nor British Empire, nor USSR 100% pure Evil.

 

[Pokurcz]

Well lets settle it at that from a Polish point of view it is.

 

[Lone Wolf]

OK. All we need now is a new tread named "Was life really that bad in the British Empire?".

 

[Pokurcz]

I just came up with one thing dough.

The British are not, on any level in society save the occasional nationalist in a bar, trying to reclaim their empire.

Sorry for keeping my bickering up...

 

[Lone Wolf]

Yes, the British have managed to aviod "Our Lost Empire" Complex. They are a moderation(in a good sence of the world)-loving nation. That's why I like then. There were some attempts to keep it, through - Kenya and Malaysia Colonial wars - but I don't think they were really horrible wars.

France picked up a bit of that complex, through. That bloody Algerian war, and some efforts in Indochina after WWII... Fortunately, De Gaulle had enough political wisdom to end that stuff.

I doubt that Russia will try to reclaim the Russian Empire in militiary ways - that will put the whole Western word against it. However, they are doing a bit of economical blackmail.

But "Our Lost Empire" complex, as I have shown, is not something peculiar to Russia.

 

[Pokurcz]

But unless Russia becomes a true democracy it won't be able to lose its Lost Empire Complex. Or at the least it will take a much longer time.
Right now Russia is governed by basically a lot of the same people that had the power in the USSR. The top honchos may be different but the top one is former KGB for pity's sake and the generals of the army are the same as before. Just look at the Chechnyan theater hostage situation, no respect for human life at all.

That is in essence my reason for calling Russia evil.

 

[colontos]

Wow. This is the best thread I've come across.
I believe that the Russian Revolution of 1917 was a major breakthrough in world history and politics. Too bad it didn't go well in the end. I think that this was because Stalin focussed more on having more nuclear arms than the U.S.A. instead of the starving people in 'his' country.
However, the pictures of the U.S.S.R. makes me think again. Could somebody confirm whether they are propaganda pictures or not (I'm talking about the majority of the pictures)?

Most of Stalin's crimes occured long before anyone was worried about getting nuclear bombs. You seem to be thinking of North Korea.

 

[Lone Wolf]

But unless Russia becomes a true democracy it won't be able to lose its Lost Empire Complex.

China does not want to regain back Burma (which it had as a vassal at one point), Korea (which it, too, had as a vassal 'till early XX century), these islands between Japan and Taiwan (which now are Japanese,), and makes no claims (yet) on Russian Far East. Their only claim is Taiwan itself. And China is a much more totalitarian country then Russia. So being totalitarian is not equal to having huge amount of territorial claims.

Besides, Russia never tried to regain their former minions with militiary ways, unlike some Western countries. And will never try to do it. The most evil thing Russia did was stopping buying Georgian wine and mineral water.

 

[Mirc]

This very quote emphasizes common ignorance and lack of comprehension that are unfortunately out there. Just for you to know, the USSR was not a communist state. It was called Union of Soviet and Socialist Republics for a reason; it was a socialist state aspiring for communism. If you read Marx, you will find these stages of development of human relations through history: Primitive Communism, Slavery, Feudalism, Capitalism,Socialism,Pre-Communism, Communism.If you associate communism or socialism with tyranny, totalitarianism, or Sauron and his Nazghuls, then you don't fully understand what you are talking about. The Soviet Union was an attempt to implement in practice the ideas of communism, as an alternative to capitalism.Yes, it was an experiment; and yes, it was not successful. There were mistakes and they are recognized. However, please keep in mind that USSR in 20s, 30s,40s,50s,60s, 70s and 80s was a very different entity in political, social, economical and even ideological respects.
I suggest for those of you that associate communism with fascism, read a bit from Owen, Fourier, Saint-Simon, Hegel and Marx. It is very rewarding.We need to be circumspect in our approach to the understanding of history, instead of simply denying the "other" points of view.
Oh, and by the way, none of those comments, posted in the forum the original poster brought these pictures from, are pejorative.

Ignorance? Lack of comprehension? Don't tell me to go read Marx!
I am specialized in music and philosophy, and I studied EXACTLY Marx and Nietzsche! Marx has nothing to do with the regime in Russia, and Nietzsche has nothing to do with the regime in Germany. I will make a more detailed post when I can, later today, when I come back home. But it just over-amused me to hear "If you read Marx..."

 

[colontos]

Marx has nothing to do with the regime in Russia, and Nietzsche has nothing to do with the regime in Germany.

Marx has everything to do with the Soviet regime. Its basic features are described in the Manifesto. If you don't believe this, let me know and I'll post it later when I have a bit more time.

 

[Lone Wolf]

BTW, I doubt Stalin really was a Marxist. He created a totallitarian empire where Marxist ideology served only as a curtain. Just look at houses built in time of his regin, and you will realize why that architechture style is called "Stalin Empire Style". Laurel wreaths, Corinth columns etc.

Someone said that Stalin was, in fact, the last Russian emperor. This is not far from truth...

 

[Pokurcz]

"So being totalitarian is not equal to having huge amount of territorial claims."

Well I never said anything of the kind.

What I said/meant was that because of Russia's lack off democracy, as compared to Britain, Russia will have much more difficult to lose its "Lost Empire Complex".

Anyway, Britain is not evil because it no longer is an Empire and does not try to be. Russia was an empire quite recently, has not amended most of its crimes during that time, and is doing everything possible to regain that status.

"The most evil thing Russia did was stopping buying Georgian wine and mineral water."

No, no! You have missed the big picture! The main problem is that Russia is meddling and aggravating Georgian internal affairs by supporting the dissidents in Abkhazia and Ajaria.

And how about Poisoning the presidential candidate they did not support in Ukrain? Thats like something out of a Hollywood movie.

 

[Lone Wolf]

What I said/meant was that because of Russia's lack off democracy, as compared to Britain, Russia will have much more difficult to lose its "Lost Empire Complex".

Well, it will have some difficulties, yes.

No, no! You have missed the big picture! The main problem is that Russia is meddling and aggravating Georgian internal affairs by supporting the dissidents in Abkhazia and Ajaria.

Um, the Abkhazian and Ajarian population does not like Georgia much... It is more of a case of Chechnya - a prolonged (since the fall of USSR) conflict with both sides commiting atrocities - not some bunch of separatists destroying a happy country. It lacks a bit of Chechnnya'a intensivness, through...

And all these measures against Georgia did make her even more wanting to enter NATO... So Russia's policy to reclaim their empire turns in the opposite direction.

 

[Mirc]

Marx has everything to do with the Soviet regime. Its basic features are described in the Manifesto. If you don't believe this, let me know and I'll post it later when I have a bit more time.

Marx has nothing to do with the Soviet regime, go ahead and post.

 

[Illdisposed]

Ignorance? Lack of comprehension? Don't tell me to go read Marx!
I am specialized in music and philosophy, and I studied EXACTLY Marx and Nietzsche! Marx has nothing to do with the regime in Russia, and Nietzsche has nothing to do with the regime in Germany. I will make a more detailed post when I can, later today, when I come back home. But it just over-amused me to hear "If you read Marx..."

I am happy to amuse you. However, if you state that Marx is nowhere near the Soviet ideology, maybe you are in the wrong field of study. I'd suggest to change your major.

 

[Pokurcz]

Hey, a lot of parts of most countries have wanted to leave said countries, but in most cases those are minority's of the "separatist" regions, like the Basques in Spain. Even the Basques them selves do not want to separate from Spain, only a hard core nationalist movement, whilst the population feels like a part of Spain.

Most importantly, no bloody outside nation has any of its fingers in that mess, no bloody outside nation has any finger in the Chechnyan mess either. All dough there is much greater reason for it, for Chechnya was the last people taken over by the Russian empire before the USSR and most of the population does not feel a part of Russia. And by hell if its not the bloodiest mess around.

But in the case of Georgia, a former member of the USSR, Russia feel for some reason that it has a right to meddle around, not only that, but actively supports the Separatist only to try to weaken the Georgians by the ancient "divide and rule" method.

Russia clearly feels that Georgia belongs to Russia.

Thankfully for the Baltic states they were really swift in becoming NATO members, otherwise they would be in the same mess as Georgia.

Not to mention Belarus. Putin has actually made Lukashenko change the history books in Belarus so that Russia seems to have a greater right to rule over them. Now thats Evil.

And how about the poisoning of Yushchenko, there is no doubt of a poisoning just look at these before and after pictures:

Thats pretty darn evil to me.

I just talked with my dad on the phone and he told me that in 1981 when he bought a typewriter he had to show his ID so that he would be registered to that particular typewriters serial number.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Hey, a lot of parts of most countries have wanted to leave said countries, but in most cases those are minority's of the "separatist" regions, like the Basques in Spain. Even the Basques them selves do not want to separate from Spain, only a hard core nationalist movement, whilst the population feels like a part of Spain.

Apply the same principles for Chechenian separatist movement. Were did you got the evidence that most of the Abhazians and Ajarians want to stay in Georgia, and most of the Chechenians want to separate from Russia? Althrough I admit the Russian militiary forces are, softly speaking, unnecessary brutal in Chechnya, (and commit some atrocities) they are fighting for the right cause. Seriously, do you want another Islamic extremist state in the world? Or do you really think that Independent Chechnya will be a good, liberal, soft country?

And things in Abkhazia and Ajaria are much more er...intencive than in Basque country. There never was a militiary conflict in Baque lands, whereas in Abkhazia and Ajaria there was a rather nasty war... Look closely at the first photo here. Notice the condition of the hotel. Look at the windows more closely. this was Georgia's work in 1992-1993 - the Abkhazo-Georgian war:
http://www.kommersant.ru/k-vlast/get_page.asp?page_id=20063422-10.htm

Thankfully for the Baltic states they were really swift in becoming NATO members .

And making Russians second-class citizens. And allowing veterans of Waffen SS organizing memorial parades. And calling Nazi Germany good occupiers, much better then these evil Russians. The Baltic States are demonstrating too much emotions and too little common sense.

And as a disclaimer: I do not think Russia should take measures to take Abkhazia and Ajaria from Georgia. Russia should develop its own land first. Either Russia should do a full-blown militiary operation in the area (which is impossible due to many reasons) or let the Abkhazians and Georgians solve their little conflicts themselves. Half-measures will, in the end, spoil the relationship with Abkhazia and Georgia both. Russian politics lack consistency. Russia, too, depends too much on the emotions...

 

[Pokurcz]

The making of Russians in to second class citizens is in deed to a large extent based on emotions. But I can totally understand it, those Russians represent the Soviet try at Russifying the Baltic nations. They represent a try at eradicating the Baltic peoples.

I can also understand why they liked the Nazis better, they left rather swiftly, whilst the Soviets outstayed their welcome several times over. Russia was the real enemy.

This is a thing that a lot of Western Europeans/Americans and indeed Russians do not understand. From a Polish/Baltic point of view The Soviets where much worse than the Nazis, not only did they do things at least as bad, they proceeded in wreaking Polish/Baltic societies, traditions and culture for over half a century. Again and worse so than the previous time!

The Ukrainian had difficulties to discern between the two evils as well, but in the end chose the Slavic side because they where Slavs.

Whilst the Nazis where punished severely, the Soviets went free, and still haven't repaid their debts. Thats Why I call Russia Evil.

And I do not blame the Finns for being with the Nazis either, they had a common enemy, their ancient enemy at that.

"Russia, too, depends too much on the emotions..."

You betcha, its called nationalism and you can find it everywhere especialy in a place saturated with "Lost Empire Syndrome"!