Was this really necessary?

[tom2050]

tom2050, I think it was a 2K employee to be honest - not a Firaxis one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

2K is the publisher. Would Firaxis let the publisher do actual work on the game itself (being that it was said it was taken from the pedia)?

That is crazy, they leave China with Ice Cream? I mean, don't get me wrong, I like Ice Cream, but... come on.

Civilization has always represented a more serious strategic game... last thing we want is to have a bunch of circus jokes floating all over the place. If I wanted some comedy game, I would play Leisure Suit Larry or something.

 

[cccv]

Do you really believe your own words?

I too noticed the similar thread in the 2K forums. I initially assumed it was the same OP but I'm not sure.

You're right, I don't really believe my own words there. I just don't want to admit that I'm not surprised this debate is going on because I'd like to think humanity's existence is justified.

But no, it's not the same OP, like I said he has the opposite problem as this thread's OP. He thinks they're over-complimentary of America while downplaying the other civs.

 

[qwerty25]

2K is the publisher. Would Firaxis let the publisher do actual work on the game itself (being that it was said it was taken from the pedia)?

That is crazy, they leave China with Ice Cream? I mean, don't get me wrong, I like Ice Cream, but... come on.

Civilization has always represented a more serious strategic game... last thing we want is to have a bunch of circus jokes floating all over the place. If I wanted some comedy game, I would play Leisure Suit Larry or something.

I think you are taking the words on the website waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy too serious!

 

[civ_king]

Fun Facts

Arabia: Muslim figured out how to distill alcohol, this lead to hard liquors, which is ironic because the Koran forbids the consumption of alcohol

Aztec: The Aztecs bred chihuahua for food

China: The Chinese invented noodles which were brought to Italy by Marco Polo and this dish is now called spaghetti

Egypt: Jewish people were never slaves in Egypt

England: Churchill's famous fight them on the beach shores speech is about how England would resist until the Americans came and saved them

France: The French are sometimes reviled for eating snail, frog legs and horse meat

Germany: Hitler got his ideas on how to treat Jews from Martin Luther's Magnum Opus On the Jews and Their Lies

Greece: Greece spent most of its years as a bunch of feuding city states

India: India's film industry, Bollywood, churns out more films than the rest of the world by taking Hollywood movies and remaking them with copious amounts of singing and dancing

Iroquois: The first constitution by gringoes in the Americas was modeled after the Iroquois League of Nations

Japan: Japan produces more rape videogames than the rest of the word combined

Ottomans:

Persia: This empires was brutally crushed by Alexander the Great and now Alexander is associated with Satan in Persia

Romans: The Flavian Amphitheatre is the single most successful death machine in the world

Russia: Poland successfully conquered Russia in the 1600s

Siam: Siam is the only South East Asian country to successfully repel European conquerers

Songhai:

 

[Yared]

Well, prove to me that statement is false

I barely know anything about the Ottoman Empire but I bet I know more than most Americans, and most people in general.

The lnie, however, probably wasn't the best thing to include in there. How about more info on the Ottoman's instead so as to educate?

This.

Sounds like a bunch of anti-American idiots that wrote that one. Whoever wrote that has a blind spot in their brain. I would say the same thing if it mentioned any country.

Implying that most Americans don't know much about the Ottomans doesn't necessarily mean that they're implying that they're all idiots. I won't see it as an anti-American statement unless it contains an insult towards the general intelligence of Americans, which it doesn't.

Stop being so over-dramatic.

 

[tom2050]

I think you are taking the words on the website waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy too serious!

Alright, but if we do see fun facts like the ones shown above in the game (and I'm not saying we will <-- have to be xtra careful with my statements nowadays), I don't know if it will add much to the actual game itself, and we will all be sorry we didn't gripe about it more while there was still time.

Implying that most Americans don't know much about the Ottomans doesn't necessarily mean that they're implying that they're all idiots. I won't see it as an anti-American statement unless it contains an insult towards the general intelligence of Americans, which it doesn't.
Stop being so over-dramatic.

(IMO) It is implying that they are geographically ignorant though and that American's geographical intelligence in the region between Greece and China is practically non-existent.

(Idiot was not the correct term to use, Ignorant (not knowing/knowing very little) better describes what the 2K or Firaxis writer was describing (IN MY OPINION).

Furthermore, the Spanish translation another user mentioned says this:

In the spanish site it says: "En general, la gente sabe muy poco del Imperio Otomano"

which means: "In general, people knows little about the ottoman empire"

So they are (IMO Seems I have to make sure I add these 'In My Opinion' Comments nowadays to everything I write - just to be on the safe side!) saying that everyone is ignorant when it comes to knowing about the ottoman empire (geographically and historically). It speaks for itself.

It is an obvious Firaxian opinion (or 2K'ian opinion) to state such a thing, as there is no data to even support such a horrible comment. It's almost like a political comment. They need to leave politics (or w/e it is) out and stick to the game.

 

[frekk]

Implying that most Americans don't know much about the Ottomans doesn't necessarily mean that they're implying that they're all idiots.

It seems pretty smug to me, but even if it isn't, what business does such a statement have in a synopsis of Ottoman history? What does the USA have to do with Suleiman?

It's not the specific comment I worry that much about, it's what it says about their writers. They've obviously never written about history at even a first year university level. It's not like there's any lack of unemployed history graduates out there; they could probably get one to do the whole thing for a couple hundred bucks.

The "factoids" don't bode well either. They're dumbing it down (apparently because they think civ players are historically and geographically ignorant).

 

[cccv]

I also am not seeing what's so wrong with adding some light touches to the game like the "fun facts." Some people act like the game is serious business and nothing light or humorous has ever been done before.

"Never get involved in a land war in Asia."
Al Gore's picture representing the internet.
Dan Quayle (that one's getting a bit dated, by the way. I vote they replace it with sarah palin >.>).

I'm fine if they want to tell me about Miss Universe contest winner as long as they still have the more detailed facts, which they will.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I'll admit a lot of politically incorrect jokes are pretty funny, but they are not professional. That is, it's not a good idea to publish them to the world. Rather, they're to be used among friends, relatives etc. - people you know won't be offended by them. Since the point of the civ5 website at the moment is pretty much marketing, it's pretty dumb to be putting up jokes about Americans when they make up the majority of the player base.

I too would be pretty miffed if my country was singled out as having that blindspot for everything between Greece and China. It's probably completely true as well.

It's all very similar to why comedians don't make jokes about their audience (or at least not many).

 

[Hypernova]

This was the biggest storm in a teacup ever. I see comments about countries far worse than this remark all the time on these forums, often Americans disparaging another country as having almost no impact on history or something like that. This statement seemed to be nothing but a characterful off the cuff remark, but American nationalism is so sensitive that even the slightest hint of an insult can explode into a six page thread! With Americans coming in from everywhere to say how the writer must be an idiot, that this has no place on the website because apparently the civ descriptions must read like an encyclopaedia. frekk would even have us believe that this one remark shows that the writer is completely inexperienced, which is quite a lot to extrapolate from one off the cuff remark!

This remark appears to be simply an American commenting on the lack of public knowledge of something he is interested in, and yet it is being made out to be some terrible insult or at least. The funny thing is all this furore over anti-americanism, how bad and stupid it is and how it's apparently just like sexism really just confirms some anti-american biases! Hypocrisy is apparent in that whenever someone asks for Poland or some other country to be in the game, they are hastily accused of "nationalism" while a barrage of insults is thrown at their country and its significance. I can't imagine the outrage if America actually wasn't included in Civ VI! tom appears to be the driving force behind this controversy judging by the number of posts and their length, which is interesting because just the other day I saw a thread where someone made a sarcastic remark about capitalism, this was commented on by tom - he completely missed the sarcasm and insinuated the person who made the remark was anti-USA! He must be constantly edgy for any perceived slight against glorious America.

 

[PieceOfMind]

This remark appears to be simply an American commenting on the lack of public knowledge of something he/she is interested in, and yet it is being made out to be some terrible insult or at least.

(bold bits added by me)

he he, don't want to look sexist now, do we? I actually wondered for a moment whether 2K Elizabeth was involved in the production of that website, because she does host the podcast I think and the website might be part of her responsibilities.

You do have a pretty reasonable argument Hypernova, and you're right the whole thing is a bit blown out of proportion, but it's important to some people obviously.

 

[Yared]

Surely one of the golden rules in marketing is to not alienate your audience. MrBullterrier, surely you'd agree that even if it is very minor, it's not exactly smart to take cheapshots at the people you want to sell a product to.

It's not a cheapshot, nor do they alienate their audience.

Are they trying to insult Americans? Are they trying to portray them as ignorant fools? Is the Ottoman Empire some commonly known empire, such as the British Empire? No.

Either you know about it, in which case it doesn't apply to you and you should just go about your life confident that you're a part of the niche of Americans who know about the Ottomans; or you don't know about it in which case it's true.

You're reading too much into it, methinks.

Now, whether or not it's relevant is something else. Especially considering that the Songhai, for example, are much less known, and it doesn't mention anything about not many Americans knowing about it.


edit:

It's also worth mentioning that many of the gamers who're going to buy Civ5, have experience in playing other history-related strategy games, like, among others, Civ4, wherein they're included and the gamers therefore know about it or have heard about it. These people (a big, fat chunk of their audience) aren't included in the "most Americans"-group because they know about it, and they won't become upset at the comment unless they are overly-sensitive.

 

[Yared]

It seems pretty smug to me, but even if it isn't, what business does such a statement have in a synopsis of Ottoman history? What does the USA have to do with Suleiman?

Smug? No. Smug would've been "not many Americans know about it - but then again, the average Joe isn't exactly known for being well-educated, so we and the rest of the world will continue to laugh at their ignorance."

It's not the specific comment I worry that much about, it's what it says about their writers. They've obviously never written about history at even a first year university level. It's not like there's any lack of unemployed history graduates out there; they could probably get one to do the whole thing for a couple hundred bucks.

The "factoids" don't bode well either. They're dumbing it down (apparently because they think civ players are historically and geographically ignorant).

Whether or not it was relevant or useful is another thing. I was only addressing the "OMG they're calling us Americans ******** monkeys!!!! DAMN YOU FIRAXIS, HOW DARE YOU!?"-vibe.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Yared, I think you're only considering part of the comment, and not the whole thing. In fact, the part that may cause offense is the part you seem to ignore:

"Many Americans know very little about the Ottoman Empire (it occupies the blind spot Americans have for pretty much everything between Greece and China)."
The bold bit is what I think easily has the potential to offend people, and it's what I think the cheapshot is. The comment before that is probably true, as it is for many Western countries. The first comment is probably fine too, because it doesn't stereotype all Americans and instead just says 'many'. See what I mean?

By the way, I'm not American, just in case you weren't sure.

 

[Yared]

Okay. I'm not American either.

Well, it could've been worded better. They could've added the part about Western education not going into details regarding Asian history.

Still, to me, it is borderline. Not many Swedish people know about Eastern history either.

 

[frekk]

I see comments about countries far worse than this remark all the time on these forums

OK, so the Civilopedia is going to be written to the standard of some Internet posts?

Somebody is getting paid to do this as professional work. It's shoddy, unprofessional, and quite sad. If it's a storm in a teacup, it's only because people are vigorously defending having the Civilopedia written to the standard of a poorly done Grade 7 essay.

 

[Hypernova]

OK, so the Civilopedia is going to be written to the standard of some Internet posts?

Somebody is getting paid to do this as professional work. It's shoddy, unprofessional, and quite sad. If it's a storm in a teacup, it's only because people are vigorously defending having the Civilopedia written to the standard of a poorly done Grade 7 essay.

You took my statement out of context, I was referring to the accusation that the remark on the website was some awful insult to America, not commenting on whether it should be a blueprint for the Civilopedia. You somehow from this one fairly innocent remark can ascertain all kinds of facts about the writer's qualifications, it is actually extremely arrogant to from this one comment make all these outlandish judgements on the quality of the entire website and even the future Civilopedia. I mean you somehow know "They've obviously never written about history at even a first year university level" then you demote them even further, now they write at the "standard of a poorly done Grade 7 essay" apparently you also know "This kind of historical writing would be lucky to get a passing grade as a junior high essay!!" - oh that's interesting, where did you get that fact, did you pull it straight out your arse? Your just acting like a smug little know-it-all because your pissed off at the remark, get over it!

Moderator Action: just be careful that last line went over the top

 

[Svip]

England: Churchill's famous fight them on the beach shores speech is about how England would resist until the Americans came and saved them

Germany: Hitler got his ideas on how to treat Jews from Martin Luther's Magnum Opus On the Jews and Their Lies

I'd recommend you read up on WW2 before spewing out falsehoods. Don't make a fool of yourself.

 

[_random_]

I'd recommend you read up on WW2 before spewing out falsehoods. Don't make a fool of yourself.

I'm pretty sure he was mocking how idiotic the factoids were. (Quite well, I might add, although I'd have said something about how the Iroquois are only relavent as they relate to white people.)

 

[Svip]

I'm pretty sure he was mocking how idiotic the factoids were. (Quite well, I might add, although I'd have said something about how the Iroquois are only relavent as they relate to white people.)

Hm, I guess you are correct. At which I stand humoured.