Washington (IC) Immortal Cookbook

@Quaren
Spoiler :

Yep Gilgamesh switching into Confu made him my target too. Good job pounding him!:ar15:

I think get over Gilg is more important (and difficult). He has very good land. Monty suppose to be easy target after Gilg due lucking military techs. (Hmm... He is not that backward though, probably thanks to being your trade buddy)

11 cities 8 workers, land is improved properly though.

How long defying resolution :mad: takes to wear off? May be would worth to use slavery and eliminate it right now? Not sure about that...

Are you waiting for golden age to switch civics? (no buro, OR)

Battle for Uruk is going to be bloodbath, at least it was in my game.

Btw switching into hindu could help in 2 areas:
Become friendly with Lui, Pacai and Bis, (thus overcoming WFYBTA)
Bribe Bis to backstub Gilg.

Nice round overall.
:goodjob:
 
@Quaren
Spoiler :

Yep Gilgamesh switching into Confu made him my target too. Good job pounding him!:ar15:

I think get over Gilg is more important (and difficult). He has very good land. Monty suppose to be easy target after Gilg due lucking military techs. (Hmm... He is not that backward though, probably thanks to being your trade buddy)

11 cities 8 workers, land is improved properly though.

How long defying resolution :mad: takes to wear off? May be would worth to use slavery and eliminate it right now? Not sure about that...

Are you waiting for golden age to switch civics? (no buro, OR)

Battle for Uruk is going to be bloodbath, at least it was in my game.

Btw switching into hindu could help in 2 areas:
Become friendly with Lui, Pacai and Bis, (thus overcoming WFYBTA)
Bribe Bis to backstub Gilg.

Nice round overall.
:goodjob:

Spoiler :


there has to be AP vote which will pass and you wont defy again... so it depends...
it's one of complications of Quaren save

 
@Vranasm

Spoiler :

@gkey
good points... Somewhere after settling 2 more cities i just went on clicking spree... dunno what i was thinking. As i wrote in report I completely forgot the iron there, in this situation i dont know if waiting for another border pop is worse/better then another coastal city.
Next border pop in 43 turns. Go for that city IMO.
I am not much paci user, it's my weakness probably. I think there is already some units... in gilg border cities should be at least 4-5 garison, monte city is another 4... So it could be expensive not? And i think i am using them for city size at some more cities. Could be a bit drag.
~20-30 units is not a big deal with pacifism IMO. On the other hand I am a big fun of this civic. In this game it was a big help for me to dig out of the tech hole.

Lui joined the party few turns ago already vassalized HC... when i saw it, my jaw just dropped...
Yep he is going to be a trouble. Lets hope we have anough land on our continent to overrun him.

 
there has to be AP vote which will pass and you wont defy again... so it depends...
it's one of complications of Quaren save

So :mad: will last till next resolution, no matter when it comes? Wow that's sounds bad.
 
@Drlake
Spoiler :

Things are nice and peaceful.
Moai in 9!
I would switch to OR and spread Judaism to rest of cities, also you could trade resources there for 34 gold per turn. Cities got enough health happy at the moment anyway.
Overall looks like you leverage your land to the max.
Good job with that!
:goodjob:
 
@Drlake
Spoiler :

Things are nice and peaceful.
Moai in 9!
Was it worth switch to OR and spread Judaism to rest of cities? I am asking cuz was not sure in my game too.
Looks like you leverage your land to the max.
Good job with this!
:goodjob:

I spaced out and never considered the switch to OR. At 400AD, I was gearing up for war so it didn't seem to make sense at the time. I probably should have done it long ago, but such is life.
 
So :mad: will last till next resolution, no matter when it comes? Wow that's sounds bad.

there are still some curves I am not 100% sure... There was some discussion around here where someone defied twice, so I vaguely remember it.

The important thing was that the resolution has to pass, dunno what happens if someone defies and the answer would be yes.

BTW when you defy AP and the vote is no, you don't get unhappy...but this is not the case.

It's not that easy and I don't know all things. But let's say it's expectable that

Spoiler :

In Quaren's position next AP is about the war, then voting yes/no and the vote goes through means you will have no unhappy. But you wont get anything from peace (vassal/trades).

It could be worse though, since you changed the number of pop in voting members, there could be first next vote for "Pope" and then some turns for next resolution.
It's a bit complicated and is one big detriment of Quaren's position in my eyes.

And worse AIs love to give back cities through AP :-(
 
Spoiler :
I don't think that the AP will become too much of a problem when it comes to giving back cities. He was just able to get the stop the war between us this time and I have already taken 1 more city from him. If he loses 2 more he should be able to do anything. AP cheese victory would probably be pretty easy with monty at friendly.
 
Okay rushed my round a bit

Spoiler :


Okay I wanted to try and rush Gilga but at start of turnset. Then i stopped and thought the Aztecs were weak. Built around 12 chariots and 5-6 galleys. Mostly whipped.

Sent them to his capital and took it swiftly.

I then built another stack of 10 chariots and took his holy city. Most of these were already being produced pre war.

I had to destroy his Fur city as it was size 1. Rebuilt taking copper. I took 4 of his cities. His jaguars are a pain. i do think Kossin plan backfired giving us such an easy target.

Overall I bulbed philosophy and part of edu too. Switch to pacifsm and also used a golden age.

I am almost ready to take my final war to monty. About 20-25 units ready. Unfortunately i demanded 70 gold for peace. grrr he accepted 4-5 turns back. I have a great general in Aztec land to be used. Aztecs are rather backward at present.

I am just about still in pole position to grab liberalism. I have a GS waiting.

Overall I have not paid much attention to my city.

French and germans are in war mode. No idea who the target is.
 

Attachments

@Gumbolt
Spoiler :
What plan? I didn't make any plan when picking this map... only made it more interesting. You might have noticed a few odd things here and there but that's all I did to be honest.
 
@Gumbolt
Spoiler :
What plan? I didn't make any plan when picking this map... only made it more interesting. You might have noticed a few odd things here and there but that's all I did to be honest.

Spoiler :


hehe. it looks like we had quite a few strong round anyway. Gilga is not as hard to roll over as many may have thought.

I think those that took out Monty will enjoy the great light house.

Although other save are better techwise than mine.
 
Man, I played this days ago and just now posting my game

Spoiler :


I took a more peaceful approach this round. I have a feeling the rounds in which players attacked Monty or Gigs will take it. I think I did okay tech wise though and will be able to tech Lib in one turn. I was able to expand rather quickly and grab up most of the available land toward Sumeria.

I'm in the process of gradually moving the Palace over to New York. I think this will make a better bureau cap while Wash becomes a GP farm. I can switch over some of the cottaged flood plains to New York.

I'd say the big mistake here is not send a boat East sooner to meet the other AIs. This likely would have facilitated earlier trading, especially since Monty/Gigs did not tech Alpha. Once I met Biz, I was able to trade Alpha and things picked up. However, I think I could have gotten this sooner by meeting up with Biz earlier.

Monty and Gigs are at war currently which is nice. Offers an opportunity to attack one of them early in the next round.

I don't think this is a bad round, but I imagine some other saves will have more land which will be of high value.


 

Attachments

Man, I played this days ago and just now posting my game

Spoiler :


I took a more peaceful approach this round. I have a feeling the rounds in which players attacked Monty or Gigs will take it. I think I did okay tech wise though and will be able to tech Lib in one turn. I was able to expand rather quickly and grab up most of the available land toward Sumeria.

I'm in the process of gradually moving the Palace over to New York. I think this will make a better bureau cap while Wash becomes a GP farm. I can switch over some of the cottaged flood plains to New York.

I'd say the big mistake here is not send a boat East sooner to meet the other AIs. This likely would have facilitated earlier trading, especially since Monty/Gigs did not tech Alpha. Once I met Biz, I was able to trade Alpha and things picked up. However, I think I could have gotten this sooner by meeting up with Biz earlier.

Monty and Gigs are at war currently which is nice. Offers an opportunity to attack one of them early in the next round.

I don't think this is a bad round, but I imagine some other saves will have more land which will be of high value.



Spoiler :


Looks reasonable but I suspect the rounds with Gilga or Monty attacked will get more votes. Your tech rate is not hugely ahead of those that rushed.
 
@gumbolt
Spoiler :

Looks like we had same approach :)
...Was first to Music - GA from GA.
Founded Tao, bulbed.
...
Education in 7, partially bulbed.
Another GS asleep in capital...
...Overall I bulbed philosophy and part of edu too. Switch to pacifsm and also used a golden age.
I have a GS waiting...

CS + Pacifism very strong on this map too.
My guess is you used GA to switch civics (I did). Way similar approach!
Except you decided go for Monty and I went for Gilgamesh. Was pretty hard, have to admit. These protective archers... But if not we will have to face protective longbows...
Anyway love your save most by now.
:goodjob:
 
@lymond
Spoiler :

So Monty was crazy enough to take that crapcity from Gilg?
:lol::lol::lol:
Btw I shadowed my GLH save and have to admit you were right with your comments:
...
Gkey - Little too agressive on settling pattern....
There are better spots near cap that should be settled first. Maintenance is too much of an issue on IMM to settle that far away
...
So most of 2nd round I was struggling with luck of settlers/workers. GLH helped a lot though. So by the end of round I was techwise in same situation as you are now.

Tech.jpg



That's what I like most about threads like this one: educational value.

Back to your save:
My guess is you traded Education for engineering to HC - Luis's vassal? Could be dangerous.
Interesting save to compare peaceful approach with warmongering.

:goodjob:
 
@lymond
Spoiler :

So Monty was crazy enough to take that crapcity from Gilg?
:lol::lol::lol:
Btw I shadowed my GLH save and have to admit you were right with your comments:

So most of 2nd round I was struggling with luck of settlers/workers. GLH helped a lot though. So by the end of round I was techwise in same situation as you are now.

Tech.jpg



That's what I like most about threads like this one: educational value.

Back to your save:
My guess is you traded Education for engineering to HC - Luis's vassal? Could be dangerous.
Interesting save to compare peaceful approach with warmongering.

:goodjob:
Spoiler :
The ironic thing being that we could well have the GLH if we play from a save where Monty is mostly weakened.
 
@vransam
Spoiler :
Battling without Siege Support
This kind of battle could have ended with you wasting a lot of units because of no siege, bad tech progress etc. So you had to get something out of it and you got the land, that's great for next progress.
Absolute correct! Which is why I "bumbled about" for 25 Turns before finally taking Monte's capital. He just had it too well defended.

We also got Gold for capturing his Cities, which helped to fund a bit of teching.


The War drags on
Overall it seems like really dragged war
It did drag on, which demonstrates how I am not great at warring.

Some players in this instance might have chosen to declare a Cease Fire and then fight again (or even taken a tech for Peace while reinforcing for 10 Turns), since no one will get offended for declaring on Montezuma other than Montezuma himself (no one treats him as their "Friend").

But, I was hoping to avoid such a Diplo hit of declaring again, as I'd like to keep Monte around by letting him recapture or gifting him back the Dual Holy City and I'd rather that when we go to war with him next, it will be on our terms (i.e. timed to get 2 Holy Shrines), instead of him declaring in revenge.

One good thing that came out of this drawn-out war was that the whole time, we were making small wins by killing a Catapult here or an Axeman there, winning most of those in-the-field battles, while gaining a bit of Experience--which is great for a Charismatic Leader to get. So, it wasn't the end of the world for the war to keep going on and the prize (The Great Lighthouse) was worth it in the end, for it's extra two Trade Routes valued each at about +3 to +6 Commerce in our core Cities.


Defence vs Offence in War
i don't know if i would risk such long war on such high difficulty. Even on Monarch I try for decisive wars. Maybe I am too safe player?
The advice that I've read on the forums tends to be that playing defensively can be used at the start of a war, so that you lure the AI's mobile stacks into your lands where you can deal with them more easily.

After that point, though, you'll generally want to be on the offence, assuming that you have sufficient Military Units to go attacking, as wars are won by capturing Cities or minimally by pillaging land, while hopefully being able to take relatively small losses while doing either of those two things.


War Weariness and Happiness Resources
WW wasnt limiting factor? I think in early ADs you start to get some WW.
War Weariness was not really an issue. +1 to +2 Unhappiness was the worst that I saw--I had greater Unhappiness from Cruel Oppression. :)

It helps that we have 8 Happiness Resources (mostly from trading), of which 2 of those give a Happiness bonus with a Forge and 2 others give a Happiness bonus with a Market.

If anything, as you'll see from my last screenshot, a screenshot of our capital Washington, we're low on Health Resources, so the next turnset should probably have us trading away a Happiness Resource or two for more Healthiness ones, or else doing a bit more whipping to take advantage of the excess Happiness.

I would tend to favour growing since we have a lot of Cottages, so the trading option sounds better to me at this point.


War before Siege
I have to admit when I aim for war around 1AD I always wait for cats. I will reconsider this position in my next games.
I really had to go all-out on Military Unit production, balanced by throwing in a lot of Galleys to help with logistics, and we now even have a Trireme in Montezuma's territory.

We almost have a complete Galley Chain set up, so shuttling the newly-built Catapults over to Montezuma's land should be a quick affair, if the boats are positioned correctly.


Saved Game
BTW I think I didnt saw savegame? I discuss things with you based on screens only...
It is attached to the last message of my 5-message story.


@GKey
Spoiler :
Workers
13 cities, 8 workers - well you were too busy with military units spamming, which was more important for sure.
Indeed, there aren't that many Workers, but since we had a lot of them early on, they did their job well.

On the mainland, there are only a few squares left to improve, and just about all, if not all, of those unimproved squares currently has a Worker standing on them.

There are some Forests left to be chopped, but those were left intentionally, so that National Wonders could get built more quickly or so that they could be saved for a bit more production and future Lumbermills, as per the player's preference.

Shipping some Workers over to Montezuma's area can and should happen now, since we have control over a large enough chunk of land for the Workers to be safe.


Civics
My guess you did not adopt OR because few Confu cities you got are focused on units. Adopting theocracy then? You got it not long ago, so it could not help you much, may be worth it still.
A good guess. What you said is pretty much the reason for not switching into Organized Religion. While I love that Civic, I had no time to prioritize building Missionaries, and with only a few Cities having the same Religion and our tech pace already very slow, and with us building more Military Units than buildings (only buildings get the production boost, not Military Units), it seemed better to sacrifice that extra bit of production in favour of saving about 8 Gold per Turn in Civic Upkeep costs.

One unfortunate consequence of having so many Cities is that switching Civics will now cost 2 turns. With us about to learn Civil Service, and with the intent of allowing players to choose between Organized Religion and Theocracy, I decided to wait until we learned Civil Service so that both Civic switches could happen on the same turn--which will cost us 3 turns of anarchy, for a net savings of 1 turn. Plus, it means getting into Bureaucracy a bit sooner, due to the minimum 5-turns-between Civic switches rule.

Since Gilgamesh has been actively spreading Confucianism to us, and since we're already running that Religion, switching to a Religious Civic in a couple of turns does look like it will be an attractive option.


Exploration
Good exploration.
The eastern continent was mapped out by a lone Galley and a lone Warrior.

We recently got some free Caravel exploration (before learning Compass or Optics) by buying a World Map, which shows us some of the eastern islands.

After a few turns, it would be worth it to buy World Maps, while NOT trading away our own World Maps. That way, we might get the Circumnavigation bonus without ever having to build a Caravel.

After that point, one could sell the World Maps if one doesnt mind this intelligence falling into the hands of the AIs--Gilgamesh will likely have sold much of the info on our starting area already anyway.


Tech Level
Tech could be worth, since advanced guys are at WFYBTA.
Yes, we avoided getting some cheap techs in trade, but of all of the AIs in our game, only Gilgamesh is not stingy on WFYABTA.

Technically, ALL of the other AIs in our game should be at the WFYABTA limit, but several of them have "forgotten" about earlier trades.

We have Gilgamesh at Friendly, which is great for avoiding being a war target, but it would actually be better to have a different AI at Friendly, so that we could avoid the WFYABTA limits. Gilgamesh has a very high WFYABTA threshhold, so we won't hit his limit for quite a long time.

Indeed, the tech level in my game is likely going to be behind most players' games. We're currently 2 turns away from getting Bureaucracy and we do have an Academy in our capital.


Religions
Pity hindu did not spread to you so you could deal with it. Diplomatically good though.
Yeah, we got Buddhism, which will help since it is the Apostolic Palace Religion, but we unfortunately got it in a City that will take a while to mature.

There is no real chance of getting Hinduism anywhere except via war or by founding a junk City and hoping that it will spread.


Gilgamesh-Bismarck War
Interesting how is Gilg-Bis war going. Gilg seems to have better land, while Bis is a better troop spammer.
It is a great thing that this war is pretty much being fought to a stand-still. It means that once we're done with Monte and have shuttled most of our troops back to the mainland, either one of those two AIs will still make for a juicy target to attack.


Los Angeles
Los Angeles… Could be nice city if not Gilg culture was eat his fish. I bet you curse that gift city right now! :mad::mad::lol:
Ahahaha, yeah that gifted City is causing a minor problem culturally. On the plus side, though, he built us a Work Boat! ;)

So, if and when we do get Cultural control of the Fish, they'll be both improved for us (we have a Work Boat standing by for the other Fish).

It would probably make sense to build a Confucian Missionary on our mainland and ship it over to Los Angeles ASAP, to help us in winning that Cultural battle. We have two Cities that are running out of things to build so are building Confucian Temples to push back Gilga's Culture--they already have Confucian Monastaries so one or both of them could switch to building Confucian Missionaries immediately, without requiring the Organized Religion Civic.
 
@Gumbolt
Spoiler :

The ironic thing being that we could well have the GLH if we play from a save where Monty is mostly weakened.

True. Having both GLH and own Monty is big.

Have you take a look at Monty's tech situation in my save?

He is miles backwards.
Units he can have right now: archers and juggs (and cats ofc), while we have maces and crossbows.
Just send to him 5 galleys full of these and watch his units drop like flies!

Protective Gilg is different story. His tech rate is way better than Monty's one. Facing his protective longbows is going to be a pain.
I am going to take his last 2 cities in mainland in 4 turns. Another several turns to bring troops back north and raze that gift crapcity, thus eliminating him.

Then, since we are already there :ar15:Monty.
But I like your saves and will gladly play them.
Going to be fun.:)


@Dhoomstriker
Spoiler :
Indeed civics switch without being spiritual is pain. luckily I could start Golden Age with GA from Music. So I could switch to OR-Slavery from CS-Pacifism, whip lots of infra, finish Civil Service in time and then revolt into Buro-CS-Pacifism without single turn of anarchy! ;)
But that is not always possible ofc.
 
@GKey
Spoiler :
Have you take a look at Monty's tech situation in my save?

He is miles backwards.
Units he can have right now: archers and juggs (and cats ofc)
I still need to download and look at others' saved games, but I will note that Monte has his own source of Ivory. So, unless he doesn't know Horseback Riding, he is likely fielding War Elephants, too.

You'd probably want your own War Elephants or a couple of Spears/Pikes to go along with any assault that you make on him.

Pillaging Monte's Copper and Ivory were two of the first things that I did in my war with him.
 
@GKey
Spoiler :
Indeed civics switch without being spiritual is pain. luckily I could start Golden Age with GA from Music. So I could switch to OR-Slavery from CS-Pacifism, whip lots of infra, finish Civil Service in time and then revolt into Buro-CS-Pacifism without single turn of anarchy! ;)
But that is not always possible ofc.
You raise a very valid point! In my game, if one wanted, one could could hire 2 Merchants in Washington and thus get a Great Person in 6 turns.

That would mean 4 turns without using the Bureaucracy bonus, since Bureaucracy comes in 2 turns.

However, in exchange, it would save 3 turns of Anarchy.

Then one could hire Specialists everywhere during the Golden Age, getting the +100% GPP bonus, to "make up for" the expense of using the Great Person in a Golden Age.

Since Monte will give us Civil Service now for Peace, plus Gold and Archery, likely after a turn or two of research into Philosophy, he'd give us Philosophy for peace.

That would give you 6 turns to capture another City of his (quite doable), get most of Philosophy from him, and then have a very similar Golden Age to yours (including Bureaucracy, Caste System, and Pacifism), without needing to burn a Great Person on Philosophy itself.

That would also buy time to get some Catapults over to Monte's lands, so that further City captures would go even more smoothly. It would also allow us to Liberate his Dual Holy City (if one wanted to do so--I want to) for an extra +1 Diplo modifier with Monte and so that he can be left with that City as his only City after the second war, giving the rest of his continent to us.

Follow it up with the Forbidden Palace being chopped out in a central City on his continent and the Colonial Maintenance Costs would go away. Then, all future wars would simply be a matter of "pushing east, always to the east."
 
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