Wasted Food

[Dancing Hoskuld]

How are you all growing your cities so fast in the first place, even in previous versions? Maybe in my current game I've got bad terrain, but I'm struggling to get any cities to size 6 - in fact I'm having trouble getting a city to size 6 so that I can construct the buildings necessary to build ships better than canoes, the sailing tech is wasted on me because for the last couple of versions I've researched the tech but still not been able to build galleys until a lot later simply because my cities aren't big enough to build sail maker, shipwright etc. I've taken to ignoring the Sailing tech as a result because it's all but useless to me! By the time I research Sailing I don't usually have any city over size 2, maybe 3 if I'm extremely lucky.

Am I missing a trick? I'd noticed that cities are a lot slower to grow in the last couple of versions than they used to be. In any version I've never had a size 100 city, not even when I'm reaching the end of the tech tree. Yet again, the thought occurs to me that I must be playing it different than everyone else

Just to ask the obvious questions, you are playing with a prehistoric start and a slow game speed eg snail? You are switching to the agriculture civics that mean you cities need less to grow and building food producing buildings?

 

[Koshling]

Am I missing a trick? I'd noticed that cities are a lot slower to grow in the last couple of versions than they used to be. In any version I've never had a size 100 city, not even when I'm reaching the end of the tech tree. Yet again, the thought occurs to me that I must be playing it different than everyone else

Butcheries, Fishmongers, Shamanism if possible (and then shaman temples and invocation hits). Switch out of penalty-to-grow civics as priority when you can.

The early prehistoric is a period of extremely slow growth, but my capital generally reaches size 6 around the end of prehistoric (huge map, eternity). I tend to rush shamanism, though druidism also works well (but is harder to get as the AI seems to like that path a lot).

 

[Epona222]

Do you automate workers? Because that's what I do and my cities seem to do fine. I also practically build every building in every city.

I don't automate anything, I'm a bit of a control frea... I mean I like to micromanage Having seen this thread though it's no longer a mystery why my cities aren't growing, in earlier versions I'd got used to buildings providing enough food for early population boom and concentrating my workers on getting hammers (mines, lumberjacks etc). Now I know what has changed I am adopting a more aggressive farm-building and deforestation tactic with my workers, (not as many forest preserves later in the game now I need more farmland ) but I should at least be hitting size 6 soon.

Obviously the increased food wastage had passed me by, it just goes to show that what works well for me in one version may not in the next - still it's good that you're keeping me on my toes I suppose I found it problematic because I never went all out for massive cities in the first place, so I wasn't experiencing that huge population growth that others were but now I know what has changed it's all good

 

[Epona222]

Butcheries, Fishmongers, Shamanism if possible (and then shaman temples and invocation hits). Switch out of penalty-to-grow civics as priority when you can.

The early prehistoric is a period of extremely slow growth, but my capital generally reaches size 6 around the end of prehistoric (huge map, eternity). I tend to rush shamanism, though druidism also works well (but is harder to get as the AI seems to like that path a lot).

Hmmm... perhaps if reliance for food is from religion, and I don't tend to use those religions and am now struggling when I wasn't before (and I wasn't growing massive prehistoric cities previously) - I might be going out on a limb here but just maybe those religious buildings are providing too much food and it should be those that are rebalanced rather than food wastage as a whole?

It's counterintuitive to "rush shamanism", or any purely religion tech, in order to gain enough food to have a size 6 city before I hit Classical era - I should be able to do it by rushing livestock domestication or agriculture (or one of the earlier food related techs, of which there are plenty), not going down a religious route - so perhaps those food bonus buildings are causing imbalance, if people were exploiting a religion to grow massive cities and it is now (with increased food wastage) necessary to use that tactic to grow normal sized cities. I'd rather get food from a pasture on a pig resource and a pig farm building than have to implore the spirits to leave it as offerings in my pig temples to top up my population growth to a normal level

Edit to add: Don't get me wrong, I like the religions in the game and I do use them - but their primary benefits ought to be culture, happiness, and stability related - not a major means of subsistence!

 

[TowerWizard]

if people were exploiting a religion to grow massive cities and it is now (with increased food wastage) necessary to use that tactic to grow normal sized cities.

I would think it is not the religion that Koshling was rushing after, but rather the Shaman hut building. The religion is just icing on the cake, I think. The Shaman hut stores 25% of the food needed to grow (though the reason for why it does this eludes me), and that is nice in the beginning of the game. By rushing agriculture you get access to the Granary, which is even better, and the civic "Subsistence Agriculture" which reduces the cities need for food by 25%.

So, if you want to grow cities ASAP, go for the shaman hut first, then beeline agriculture, picking up Animal Husbandry along the way (as I think it is needed for Agriculture?).

Edit: Sorry, I was wrong about the Shaman hut lowering the need for food. Updated the post. The conclusion still stands, though.

 

[Epona222]

I would think it is not the religion that Koshling was rushing after, but rather the Shaman hut building. The religion is just icing on the cake, I think. The Shaman hut lowers the cities need for food by 25% (though the reason for why it does this eludes me), and that is huge in the beginning of the game. By rushing agriculture you get access to the Granary, which is almost as good, and the civic "Subsistence Agriculture" which also reduces the cities need for food by 25%.

So, if you want to grow cities ASAP, go for the shaman hut first, then beeline agriculture, picking up Animal Husbandry along the way (as I think it is needed for Agriculture?).

Yes yes, I understand that this is the way it is, what I am questioning is WHY it is the best tactic for population growth, and whether it SHOULD be that way - because it makes absolutely no sense. If you want food, you gather or grow it. Building a shaman hut should neither decrease your cities need for food, nor make it magically appear - at least not to the extent that it becomes a necessary subsistence tactic in order to get a reasonable size city. Subsistence technologies should be the ones providing buildings with this extent of food benefit, not religious ones.

 

[Koshling]

Hmmm... perhaps if reliance for food is from religion, and I don't tend to use those religions and am now struggling when I wasn't before (and I wasn't growing massive prehistoric cities previously) - I might be going out on a limb here but just maybe those religious buildings are providing too much food and it should be those that are rebalanced rather than food wastage as a whole?

It's counterintuitive to "rush shamanism", or any purely religion tech, in order to gain enough food to have a size 6 city before I hit Classical era - I should be able to do it by rushing livestock domestication or agriculture (or one of the earlier food related techs, of which there are plenty), not going down a religious route - so perhaps those food bonus buildings are causing imbalance, if people were exploiting a religion to grow massive cities and it is now (with increased food wastage) necessary to use that tactic to grow normal sized cities. I'd rather get food from a pasture on a pig resource and a pig farm building than have to implore the spirits to leave it as offerings in my pig temples to top up my population growth to a normal level

Edit to add: Don't get me wrong, I like the religions in the game and I do use them - but their primary benefits ought to be culture, happiness, and stability related - not a major means of subsistence!

It was intended as a tip, not a must-do. Rushing to things like livestock domestication also works, and it's not necessary (shamanism/druidism that is) in order to reach size 6 around the end of prehistoric. Also food wastage as a mechanic has almost zero effect on small cities in the prehistoric era. It was put in mostly to prevent runaway growth much later (rebnaissance-ish and later). If you're not reaching size 6 then you cannot possibly have enough food for the wastage mechanic to really be a significant factor - I think (can't remember exactly) there is zero wastage before 8 food excess and it doesn't get bad before at least 15 or so.

 

[BlueGenie]

Shaman's hut acts as a storage pit, saving 25% food after growth. Id doesn't in itself make it so that the city requires less food to grow.
Granary is better, with it's 30% stored, but even better at Agri (I think, haven't got the game up) is the Civic that changes your required food to grow. Sustenance Agriculture I think.
Tribal Civic, at Tribalism, I think does the same, reduces your food needed to grow.

The waste that comes up is really only what goes bad before it's eaten. Pop doesn't grow simply because there is extra food available, they have to make babies too, and they can't make more than a certain amount of babies.
Thus the growth factor is cut somewhere around +20 to +22 food per turn acting towards making more pop. Up to about +10-12 food per turn you don't waste much, at 60+ you waste around 2/3's of the food, and higher yet it's just not worth having as you lose out basically everything over those 60 (which translates to about +20 to 22 food per turn).

The main factor is babies. You can only have a finite number of them so growing with 60+ food per turn is just unrealistic.

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The extra food from Shaman, Druid and to a lesser extent Ngai is about science. These religions include study of their special resources and passing on that information as knowledge. Which is why most of these extra buildings are obsolete before Education.

 

[KingArthur666]

It was intended as a tip, not a must-do. Rushing to things like livestock domestication also works, and it's not necessary (shamanism/druidism that is) in order to reach size 6 around the end of prehistoric. Also food wastage as a mechanic has almost zero effect on small cities in the prehistoric era. It was put in mostly to prevent runaway growth much later (rebnaissance-ish and later). If you're not reaching size 6 then you cannot possibly have enough food for the wastage mechanic to really be a significant factor - I think (can't remember exactly) there is zero wastage before 8 food excess and it doesn't get bad before at least 15 or so.

I must be doing something wrong. I'm in the middle of the Classical Era and my only size 6 city is my capital. I've just noticed how much food is being wasted (more than +20 in my older cities) but it still takes ages for my cities to grow.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I must be doing something wrong. I'm in the middle of the Classical Era and my only size 6 city is my capital. I've just noticed how much food is being wasted (more than +20 in my older cities) but it still takes ages for my cities to grow.

What civics do you use? This may be a factor as well. For instance if you use Slavery it takes 25% more food to grow your cities.

 

[KingArthur666]

What civics do you use? This may be a factor as well. Fo instance if you use Slavery it takes 25% more food to grow your cities.

Monarchy, Junta, Caste, Slavery, Banditry, Prophets, Charity, Garbage Anywhere, No Borders, Written Tradition, Interpreters, and Subsistence Agriculture.

My two newest cities have built all the hammer boosting buildings, most of the food buildings, and have started in on the culture and commerce buildings, still size 1. Plenty of wasted food though.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well along with Slavery the Garbage Anywhere will keep your cities from growing. With both of those your cities will grow 50% Slower (Slavery 25% and Garbage Anywhere 25%).

I recommend Barter (or Coinage if you can get it yet) and Waste to Sea if you want some faster city growth.

 

[KingArthur666]

Well along with Slavery the Garbage Anywhere will keep your cities from growing. With both of those your cities will grow 50% Slower (Slavery 25% and Garbage Anywhere 25%).

I recommend Barter (or Coinage if you can get it yet) and Waste to Sea if you want some faster city growth.

I had Barter before slavery, it seemed weaker but maybe I'll give it another look. I don't have Coinage or Waste to Sea yet. I'll look at the tech tree and see about getting them, I'm researching new techs at an amazing rate right now.
The computer opponents are falling behind at such a staggering rate, I might have to quit and start a new game pretty soon.

 

[Koshling]

I had Barter before slavery, it seemed weaker but maybe I'll give it another look. I don't have Coinage or Waste to Sea yet. I'll look at the tech tree and see about getting them, I'm researching new techs at an amazing rate right now.
The computer opponents are falling behind at such a staggering rate, I might have to quit and start a new game pretty soon.

Can you give an example of a city with a lot of waste? In particular whatcare it's values of food surplus and of waste?

 

[KingArthur666]

Can you give an example of a city with a lot of waste? In particular whatcare it's values of food surplus and of waste?

I've got two examples for you.
Rostov
Size 1
Food 14 (4 from tiles worked 10 from buildings if it matters)
Eaten 3
Wasted 2
That leaves 9 for growth. As Rostov needs 466 food to grow it is going to take a while. It was founded more than 50 turns ago, so it's getting close. It's managed to build plenty of buildings though.

Memphis
Size 5
Food 57 (36 from tiles worked 22 from buildings -1 from a slave)
Eaten 15
Wasted 17
That leaves 25 for growth. Wait. That's odd. Let me get a picture. Okay, the tool tip shows 25 for growth but you can see the city screen is showing 49-32=17??? I don't know what is going on there.
Okay, I just checked my other cities. All my cities with size larger than 1 have this problem except for my capital (which is by far my largest city).

 

[charlesb96]

Looking at storage of food after growth, that might be the cause of super cities. Modern Granary stores 50% of food after growth. Colony arcology stores another 40%, and the launch arcology stores 50%. So combining the two building, a city stores 100% of food after growth? Is this correct or am I wrong here? Cause this means a city will grow 1 population every single turn till there is no more food coming in.

 

[BlueGenie]

They only add the extra percent on what's left after the others have been added. So if you have 50%+40%+50% it gives:
50% stored from the first.
40% of the remaining 50% stored, or +20% to 70% stored.
50% of the remaining 30% stored, or +15% to 85% stored.

Cheers

 

[Hydromancerx]

The arcologies also replace each other.

 

[Epona222]

Well I managed to get some cities to size 6 just after I hit the Classical Era - one thing I found helped massively was that I had the rabbit resource available so built Cree culture and sent out 15 Cree Trackers hunting - with the new butchery button for subdued animals (which btw is absoblinkinglutely brilliant, thank you!) I was sending several food back to at least one of my cities per turn and all those one-off +1 or +2 foods make a big difference over the course of a couple of hundred years! Plus I was bringing back a lot of herd type animals that I subdued near my borders to build their herd buildings.