Weak UAs

Sweden is indeed meh.

The Swedish AI is surprisingly aggressive considering the UA. More Charles X than Gustavus, imo.

Lol no mater how nice i am to Gustavus he never likes me to give a DoF so i can get +10% GP

Last game I traded with I'm went to war with rome when he asked me He had an embassy in my capital. Would he sign a DoF?

And yeah he like getting into wars and always seems pretty weak.

I Tried them out and it was pretty weak, its easy to make CS Allies but hard to get DoFs with lots of people so max i had was +20% and when i got a Great person I didn't know the best way to use them. I ended up losing to Darius in a UN vote by 2 Votes cause darius just ended up Being super powerful not eh other content cause i tried to be too peaceful.

Maybe someone could point me to a thread about how best to use him.
 
I kind of Feel, I think it is Sulimens? I feel no pain for France's, in fact I think the 2 per should be downgraded to 1. I hate France in my games. :)

The ottoman ability is arguably THE most OP UA in the whole game. On maps with naval options, the Ottomans can often double or triple the size of their navy in a war.
 
Well now it is, before it was just barbs, but now its all ships. That promotion is whats OP.
 
For France's UA, I believe that the culture boost is supposed to represent France's monarchy. Since they were all dead by steam power, the culture stops.

So, my proposal is, that once steam power is researched, the culture boost switches to a military production boos.
 
The ottoman ability is arguably THE most OP UA in the whole game. On maps with naval options, the Ottomans can often double or triple the size of their navy in a war.

The problem is the promotion Prize Ship. this shouldn't be a 100% proc ability, it makes it TOO good. It should be a multi progression promotion that is something like 20-40-60%, or 33-66% and should unlock similar to how promotions do with melee/range (i.e. Rough 1 -> Medic ... and so on) If this was changed and the Ottoman UA and the Dutch Sea Beggar/Privateer, just happened to have the 1st rank of the promotion so that there was a CHANCE per kill of capturing, rather then a guarentee, then i think we'd feel less inclined to scream OP!
 
Celtic Ua is just fine, guaranteed your pantheon and massive leg up on religion. Considering the benefits of religion and first pick religion at that can be quite good. Pantheons can be really powerful and guaranteed first selection, except maybe high level ai hits religious and spams shrine within ten, can be quite good. On a water map know you can get god of the sea or on others get the faith pantheon that matches your terrain, all without wasting a hammer.If you expand to three cites it could be up to 5 faith and thats a free stonehenge available earlier that you dont need to waste hammers on. Considering how useful religion can be , and how much more if you get first pick, its a decent UA.
 
The ottoman ability is arguably THE most OP UA in the whole game. On maps with naval options, the Ottomans can often double or triple the size of their navy in a war.

Thats not the one then, the + 1 trade route? Maybe the other Muslim nation. Anyways I do not do a lot of cities so that seems weak to me. Because of that I never tried him, could be good. But on paper looks weak to me.
 
Dutch UA is not weak in the slightest - but apparently it takes some skill to use effectively since so many people seem to not understand how to use it right. Early gold is game breakingly good early on, so being able to sell off early luxuries without getting a huge happiness loss is very helpful. Also factor in the Commerce tree's +2 happiness per luxury and then a trade with a civ for a luxury you dont have for a luxuray you only have 1 of will aleast net you +4 happiness - essentially when any other civ trades away their last resource for another resource you break even and get 0 happiness - the dutch get +4 w/ commerce...very useful skill indeed.
And in my opinion, anyone who plays the dutch and don't go down the commerce tree are completely missing the point of this civ.

Making those even trades in the early game is a great way to allow for some REX magic to happen without killing your happiness. In my first game as the Dutch I traded all my luxuries away, mostly as even trades for one of their luxuries. This allowed me to to plop down about 6-7 cities as quickly as possible, filling my island and two nearby islands. All without having to stifle the growth of those cities.

Sure, doing a REX like that will slow down the social policies, but it does allow for some much faster teching. As well as getting your religion founded much easier with all the extra shrines and temples.

Even selling some of them to buy a few work boats to hook up more of them is nice too. Or just to buy some happiness buildings so you can continue cranking out wonders and units.
 
The real problem with a lot of the original civ UAs is that they are just plain boring. Compare the Mayan UA, which really is like playing a scenario vs. the simple bonus UAs. :-/ Playing Maya is FUN. That's what the UAs need.
 
I find them both powerful UAs in the sense that they allow you to take particular areas of the game and put them in a vicegrip, which with the increased level of specialization in G&K is very handy. If you sell-out compoletely on a particular victory strategy, these two are immensely powerful.

France's UA is extremely good bc when you rush the Liberty tree, you can get a free settler, the +1 production from Republic or free workers much quicker than any other civ and your borders expand ridiculously quickly early-on. +1 production per city is nothing to sneeze at either. That's made the difference in me getting some wonders I've wanted and building defensive fortifications in time to stave-off defeat.

The tactical advantage this gives you should you choose to sieze it is extremely powerful. It's intended to give an early advantage while their UUs give them an advantage in the mid-game. The only gripe I have is that it drops-off after Steam Power, but bc they moved Steam Power back later into the tech tree and you have the option to cookie-cutter your techs around it for a bit, it's not as much of a killer.

Egypt's bonus by itself is a bit underwhelming at times, but when combined with a production monster city (Like a city with Desert hills near a river and Petra) or with other buffs like the Monuments to the Gods Pantheon and the marble boost it can make for devastating Wonder hogging. Also, the bonus essentially guarantees that you can beeline for a particular wonder you want (I usually go Stonehenge or Great Library) and be sure you'll beat anybody else to it, even ppl with marble (As they'll need to build quarries first; by this point you'll be halfway done with it). I find getting these one of these two wonders in the bag early provides you with an insurmountable advantage in tech or in founding your full-blown religion.

If you can get a tech lead and beeline education, you'll find yourself with a major edge and researching techs before the AI can while you have a wonder boost almost guarantees you the wonder from that tech. If you can get a religious lead and adopt tithing or some other powerful founder belief and start spreading it like wildfire while other civs aren't able to compete with you religiously, you can get a vicegrip on the game fiscally. I find Ramses to be appealing, but you have to have a very specific meta-strategy in mind and decide which wonders it is you want.

The only two gripes I have are that Egypt's UU is useless (Especially when I look at the Hun horse archer, which does the same things but with a free promotion and better defense against melee as well as no rough terrain penalty to make-up for the +1 movement) and France's power expires too soon. Even a drop-off from +2 culture to +1 would be nice. France's UUs and Egypt's Burial Tombs more than make-up for any UA weaknesses, at least to me.
 
Thats not the one then, the + 1 trade route? Maybe the other Muslim nation. Anyways I do not do a lot of cities so that seems weak to me. Because of that I never tried him, could be good. But on paper looks weak to me.

Yeah, but the double oil more than makes-up for it... you can field massive fleets of modern units without worrying about hitting that resource ceiling if you so choose. Maybe a better UA would be +2 commerce per desert tile or letting deserts connect cities (A total re-hash of what the Iroquoi do, but still) something a bit more flavorful.
 
The Swedish UA is absolutely incredible and you'll be hearing a lot more about how amazing it is as soon as the Austria nerf cries die down a bit.
 
Spain's isn't totally useless, but it is very situational and my playstyle with minimal exploration bc of all the wonders I build doesn't help.
England's is useless in vanilla, but the extra spy seems like it would be valuable to play as them (I know there are times I've been playing as other civs and been BEGGING for an extra spy to help with defense)

As far as the new civs, only Sweden's UA is useless. I can never get him to go for a DoF (I've played against him like 5 times... I got ONE DoF and he wasn't even around to renew it bc somebody conquered him). But from what I've heard, their UUs more than make-up for it... I could see an infantry with a March promotion from the start being deadly for hit and run attacks, especially if he lived long enough to become a Mech Infantry or you could get a horde of like 5 of them and add the medic bonus to 1 or 2 of them.
 
See I'm of the mind though that no UA should ever become obsolete. If it does, it's just poor design.

Why would this be poor design? Civs are definitely tailored to different eras; I don't know of any principle of game design that says that if a trait stops functioning at some point, it's automatically a bad design.

In any case, you keep the culture lead it gives you well into the late game. You stop accumulating bonus culture, but it's not like you suddenly lose those policies.
 
For France's UA, I believe that the culture boost is supposed to represent France's monarchy. Since they were all dead by steam power, the culture stops.

So, my proposal is, that once steam power is researched, the culture boost switches to a military production boos.

Actually, you're slightly wrong. While the two did happen around the same time, this obsoletion of the UA comes of a quote of Napoleon, who said that Steam Power would never catch on. They tied this in with it, and thus the UA stops at Steam.

Anyway, Spain is the one I dislike most simply because it's just a dice roll. Nothing more, nothing less. Either Spain runs away with it, or they fail 'cause of no wonders in the neighborhood.
 
I'm suspecting that peoples opinion of what classifies as a weak civ seems to co-relate to their particular playstyle. Personally I don't play many tall games, and i seldom participate in woo'n the CS, so Ghandi and Siam seem like the weakest to me, even though they're actually really good.

Spain's UA on the other hand is actually just weak. They rely on finding natural wonders, a complete gamble in this game. Really they could have done so much more with them. With the addition of religion i dont see why they didn't add something like cheaper missionary/inquisitors or something - would have been a perfect fit. What really sucks is they include spain in the expansion but they change nothing about them.
 
As a matter of fact, I just played a game as egypt on king - had marble near one of my first cities and went for the early wonder construction bonus when founding my Pantheon. Built practically every early and classical wonder and went for order in the insudtrial era to buy great engineers for faith. Quit the game soon after that because my victory was obvious.
 
It's basically impossible to lose as Egypt at anything below Emperor and any claims of their UA being weak should be based on Immortal or Deity level.

I suspect this is true for a lot of civ's however.
 
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