Were Korean Turtle Ships ocean going vessels?

[MajKira]

In Civ5 it would be fine to goto open ocean for sure funny.

In historical context Turtleships were needed to create a balance to the overpowering
land army power of Japan to not let them win the war

unfortunately the importance of the naval power for the success of winning the war wasnt recognized by the kings court. Admiral Yi SunShin took out the new blueprint for the modification of the Panukson to an armored ramming ship and presented it to the court. But the court was confident to get them down on land and invested not much into the navy, they rather neglected the cost.

But what would be the purpose to let them going out when they were needed in coastal regions to cut off supply routes of the Japanese? Because of the reason above there werent many Turtleships produced anyway to have them in the war. But Yi managed to use them most efficiently. But his sucesss and ability hade been neglected by the coward court after the first two years of the war. They even disposed him of his duty. But by seeing of incompetency other admirals produced Yi was called back and was rehabilitated, but found again small amount of ships remained later in the war.

Turtle ships were expensive to produce because they needed a special metal alloy which was expensive to produce. They were covered with that iron alloy and would have been simply no good to goto open ocean. They were most effective in coastal battles to ram the japanese.

Joints
K:Wooden nail: expands in water to strengthen overall structure////
J:Metal nail: corrodes in water weakening overall structure

Main Weapon
K:Heavy artillery: range 500m (1,650 ft),Fire-arrows ////
J:Muskets: range 200m (660ft),Spears, swords, arrows

Method of Attack
K:Breaching enemy hulls,Burning and sinking enemy ships////
J:Grappling and Boarding,Killing and wounding enemy crews

If there were any need to explore something in outer regions, more turtle ships would have been build after the war was over after 7years of tremendous hard struggle.
But recuperation was most important thing so on exploration was no appropriate time to think of.

 

[Masada]

You haven't told me anything about whether or not they were capable of making transoceanic voyages though.

 

[MajKira]

You haven't told me anything about whether or not they were capable of making transoceanic voyages though.

I guess you can only speculate about that becuz they never been sent out for exploration

Dokebi mentioned Thor and he(?) already said and consent to our agreement

"Turtle ships were designed for shallow coastal waters. In that environment, they did very well. They simply weren't designed for the open ocean and were hydrodynamically unsuitable for that task.

If this wasn't the case, surely we would have lots of historical examples. The fact that we don't is very telling. "

 

[Ajidica]

That's a fair wording. But I haven't seen any evidence that they weren't capable of making a transoceanic voyage. We have, at most, a claim that they weren't designed to because they're flat-bottomed which I've pointed out doesn't really matter all that much. Then again, it's for Civ 5 which suggests that balance alone is probably the more binding consideration than imputed historical capabilities.

I'm not very good with ship design, but isn't there a large difference between old flat bottomed boats and the modern supertankers that have a flat bottom?

 

[MajKira]

Flatbottom forms not the whole capability of going transoceanic

Sails,Hydrodynamic and weight of the ship is also important

the standard Panukson ship is lighter to get more speed than the drastically heavier Turtle ship variant of the Panukson

 

[Masada]

I guess you can only speculate about that becuz they never been sent out for exploration

While it would be speculative the Sea of Japan is to this day is rather inhospitable. If a ship could survive there, and along the Korean coast then it has to be by definition pretty seaworthy.

I'm not very good with ship design, but isn't there a large difference between old flat bottomed boats and the modern supertankers that have a flat bottom?

It isn't as significant as people would have you believe. Most ship hulls look like this { rather than this V and the transition from { to [ isn't as significant as people might think. Moreover, even most 'flat-bottomed' boats are more { than [ in reality.

Flatbottom forms not the whole capability of going transoceanic

All modern cargo ships and oilers are flat-bottomed dood. Hell even things like Fluyts and Galleons are essentially flat-bottomed, there's virtually no curvature beneath the water line.

 

[MajKira]

seaworthy but not fast enough to think about your arguments I quess

and than again you would also need sufficient economical national power too
to explore, seize land and build colonies on it. And conquests doing

 

[Masada]

Speed isn't much of an issue: Fluyts and Galleons typically made less than 4 knots. And there's also that consideration to be made. I think it's a fair call because Korea didn't use them for oceanic exploration, but I don't think that can be put back at the design so much as at the circumstances under which they were constructed.

 

[MajKira]

Fluyts and galleons were rather slow typed transport ships

Faster ships in the Age of Sail Exploration Colonization were Sloops,Pinnaces for capturing purposes, which was the attacking method of Japanese
the ships they used in the war were like that

really good big ships were frigates both well armed and faster than any fluyts and galleons heavy loaded with cargo

turtle ship ergo too slow, well armed but too slow

 

[Ajidica]

It isn't as significant as people would have you believe. Most ship hulls look like this { rather than this V and the transition from { to [ isn't as significant as people might think. Moreover, even most 'flat-bottomed' boats are more { than [ in reality.

From what I've seen, they seem to have less of a keel then comparable European boats, whether they been galleys or caravels. Is there actualy a difference here, or am I just seeing things with my mind filling in false information? (I have done some small boat said so I do know a keel, or at least a daggerboard, is very important!)

 

[Dokebi]

Like Masada said, there is a very good chance that the turtle ships were able to go into the open sea. I mean what do you guys expect? The turtle ship will just stop working or sink all of sudden when it enters the open sea? It was made to work on rough waters and currents. I'm going to quote this one more time,

"Because of the rough waters around Korea's coast, as well as the sudden changes in tides and currents, Korean boats throughout history had to be strong. Korean ship building tradition created simple, but very structurally sound vessels. Throughout Korea's naval history, strength and power was emphasized rather than speed."

Just reading that sentence, we can pretty much guess that the turtle ship was able to go into the open sea. I have no clue why you two (Thormodr and MajKira) are so obsessed that the turtle ship can't 100% like you guys have the facts? Hmmm why do I feel like I'm talking to a same person? Majkira, you are awfully active when I never saw you in general discussion, but all of sudden you are super active in this thread only and Thormodr have gone missing...Also you two have female character for your avatar with similar style feeling. Hmmm not accusing you, but wouldn't you suspect also if that happened to you?

 

[fing0lfin]

I think we can't compare modern ships to turtle ships. Besides everything else their tonnage is absolutely not similiar, and this matters for the stability of the ship. Also the modern cargo ships may not have so sharp v-type bottom(some are pretty flat actually but these are mostly VLCCs) but their ratio beam-lenght is completely different ( around 1:8-10) why the turtle ships had 1:3(i use wiki for the measures of the turtleships). Ship which are not intended to enter open seas(river and cabotage vessels) have larger beam(the turtle shi has large beam too), so i think such designs are not appropriate for open seas.
Though it would be nice if someone can provide more detalied info about the turtle ships such as methacentrical radius, statical stability curve, etc. But i doubt that such info can be easily found..Anyway with some additional info it would be easier to evaluate these ships.
Also i am not aware if the Koreans had the neccesery naviogational equipment and skills.
And if someone have data about open seas voyages of turtle ships, please share it. And also did Korea have any ambitions for such voyages those times.

 

[Shaihulud]

Shallow draught vessels (example: Turtle Ships) are not suitable for ocean going, but it cantravel on the ocean, again if luck holds, a canoe can move through the ocean. The koreans designed the Turtle ships for coastal defense, not as an ocean going vessel. It would not be flavorful to allow turtle ships to travel on Ocean squares.

 

[Masada]

Fluyts and galleons were rather slow typed transport ships

Faster ships in the Age of Sail Exploration Colonization were Sloops,Pinnaces for capturing purposes, which was the attacking method of Japanese
the ships they used in the war were like that

What does speed have to do with anything?

From what I've seen, they seem to have less of a keel then comparable European boats, whether they been galleys or caravels. Is there actualy a difference here, or am I just seeing things with my mind filling in false information? (I have done some small boat said so I do know a keel, or at least a daggerboard, is very important!)

Those are strange comparisions to make! Nevetheless, the question isn't whether or not a turtleship was comparable to something in performance but whether or not it could make transoceanic voyages. As to that, well I'm not sure: I'm just not convinced that being a flat-bottomed boat or being slow are explanations in themselves.

Though it would be nice if someone can provide more detalied info about the turtle ships such as methacentrical radius, statical stability curve, etc. But i doubt that such info can be easily found..Anyway with some additional info it would be easier to evaluate these ships.

Mmm. There's always the Korean sources to look at which seem to indicate that they were capable of traversing open sea. That doesn't tell us much either way.

Also i am not aware if the Koreans had the neccesery naviogational equipment and skills.

Kind of irrelevant considerations for a Civ game to be honest.

 

[Dokebi]

And also did Korea have any ambitions for such voyages those times.

Korea back then probably didn't have any ambitions to explore the world, but you have to understand, Korea is surrounded by ocean and been making boats forever. Korea is a navy country. Do you really think they would just make a battle ship that can only go in a shallow water like you said? It would be hard to believe if that was the case.

Also, you mentioned that even a canoe can cross the ocean with a luck, so basically you are saying any boats can enter the open sea. I guess we can agree on the turtle ship can go into open sea then right?

You also have to understand that even caravel is not 100% safe in the open sea. If it meets the rough water, it could sink also or are you saying caravel is 100% bullet proof to go into the open sea? Well, this is all he says, she says, nobody have a real proof if the turtle ship can go in or not. I'd think it can with the articles we found and info Masada gave us, but since it never went into the open sea, we can only speculate. I don't think anybody can change each others opinion with this subject.

Only Admiral Yi Sun Shin knows. Probably if we asked him, he would say, "Of course! let's go!"

 

[Shaihulud]

I mentioned that a canoe can enter into the ocean, and cross it with luck. The Polynesians have been doing it all over the world, and they were experts on it.

 

[Thormodr]

As I said before, Turtle ships were capable of entering the open ocean. However, their hydrodynamic design left them at a serious disadvantage in that environment and would have been extremely dangerous. They simply weren't designed to venture out into the open ocean.

Just like taking an average car like a Volkswagon Beetle or a Honda Civic into the country for some off road "4 by 4" style fun. You could do this if you wanted. The cars are well made and have a reputation for quality. However, it wasn't what these cars were designed for and you'd literally be taking your life into your own hands. Either you'd end up killing yourself or totally destroying your car.

The most plausible explanation for why Turtle ships venturing into the open ocean is not in the historical record (Occam's Razor here) is that Koreans weren't stupid. They knew that Turtle ships were out of their element there. Why risk 150 odd crew members? The open ocean is a dangerous place, even for vessels designed to be used there.

 

[fing0lfin]

Korea back then probably didn't have any ambitions to explore the world, but you have to understand, Korea is surrounded by ocean and been making boats forever. Korea is a navy country. Do you really think they would just make a battle ship that can only go in a shallow water like you said? It would be hard to believe if that was the case.

Also, you mentioned that even a canoe can cross the ocean with a luck, so basically you are saying any boats can enter the open sea. I guess we can agree on the turtle ship can go into open sea then right?

You also have to understand that even caravel is not 100% safe in the open sea. If it meets the rough water, it could sink also or are you saying caravel is 100% bullet proof to go into the open sea? Well, this is all he says, she says, nobody have a real proof if the turtle ship can go in or not. I'd think it can with the articles we found and info Masada gave us, but since it never went into the open sea, we can only speculate. I don't think anybody can change each others opinion with this subject.

Only Admiral Yi Sun Shin knows. Probably if we asked him, he would say, "Of course! let's go!"

Can you provide some data about turtle ships going into oceans ? I mean historical records and such things. Also as far as i know the main idea of those ships was to protect the Korean mainland from invasion.
All i say is that their design is not appropriate for open see travel. They are not seaworthy or stable. Also there are no records of them sailing into oceans(share if there is). And their purpose was to protect from invasion combined with lack of colonial ambitions of Korea makes me think that most probably they were not used in oceans and even if they were they would have preformed poorly.
All i say is just in historical aspect. No civ 5 related.

 

[Dokebi]

Can you provide some data about turtle ships going into oceans ? I mean historical records and such things. Also as far as i know the main idea of those ships was to protect the Korean mainland from invasion.
All i say is that their design is not appropriate for open see travel. They are not seaworthy or stable. Also there are no records of them sailing into oceans(share if there is). And their purpose was to protect from invasion combined with lack of colonial ambitions of Korea makes me think that most probably they were not used in oceans and even if they were they would have preformed poorly.
All i say is just in historical aspect. No civ 5 related.

Like I said many times, there was no info of the turtle ship going into the open sea, but also it never said going to the open sea was dangerous with the turtle ship. If you can find me a source that the turtle ship shouldn't enter the open sea, feel free to post other wise.

 

[Dokebi]

As I said before, Turtle ships were capable of entering the open ocean. However, their hydrodynamic design left them at a serious disadvantage in that environment and would have been extremely dangerous. They simply weren't designed to venture out into the open ocean.

Not sure how you became all of sudden boat expert after reading few sentences in wiki, but we can both agree on the turtle ship that it could go into open sea correct? Since even the canoes can travel the open sea. So I was just mentioning that in CIV V GAME, the turtle ship be able to go to the open sea, since it's replacing CARAVEL but with lots of movement penalty. Makes sense?