Were Nazis lefties?

One where you aren't raised to go to college.

That's not really a definition of working class, though, it's more like blue collar vs white collar. Both of those are in the working class. It's probably the case that a lot of the time when people talk about the working class they are talking about blue collar people. But strictly speaking all of us who sell our labor to survive are working class.

Needless to say, the "working class" however conceived is hardly going to be a homogeneous group.
 
Smells suspicious. Literally. In my room. WTH. Nothing to do with y'all. Why does it small like cat.

Also, the nazis are not leftists. Duh?
 
Also, the nazis are not leftists. Duh?

Quite, and to get all meta for a moment it's clear that the only ones calling them left-wing are far-right people who are doing it for political purposes.
 
Yeah. Anyone who thinks that the Nazis were leftists is fooling themselves.
Most of this stuff was still strictly hierarchical; the Hitler Youth, for example, was pretty explicitly a prep school for military service, in which the superiority of officers over enlisted men and of senior officers over junior officers is pretty iron-clad. Part of the function of the Hitler Youth was to talent-scout "officer material" kids and place them in leadership positions. It represented a break with traditional aristocratic hierarchies, but only insofar as it substituted them for the hierarchy built through competition.
To build off of this, the Nazi adoption of the Führerprinzip was intended explicitly to synergize with the fundamentally paternalistic expectations of the German officer corps. In 1934, at the tail end of the Machtergreifung, the Reichswehr published its new officers' leadership manual, Truppenführung. The manual and its emphasis on the leadership principle (among many other things, of course) were not conditioned by the new Nazi leadership. They were old-school German military notions, and the Nazi espousal of the same basic ideas was a happy marriage of the minds.
A hierarchy built on competition is about as opposed to a hierarchy based on ancestry as you can be unless you ditch hierarchy altogether.
Hitler used and worked with the traditional hierarchies, but he was contemptuous of them and his policies undermined them (eg massive expansion of German army undermined the aristocratic traditional officer corp)
The only hierarchy he really cared about was racial.
The massive expansion of the German Army undermined the aristocratic officer corps to an extent, but contra Craig (who in general overstates political grounds for anything occurring in the Prussian-German military) there are a decent amount of modern arguments suggesting that that work had already been done by the experience of the First World War. Reichswehr officers saw how cumbersome the system got with OHL and the Military Cabinet attempting to suppress "mustang" NCOs from becoming officers (expansion of the grade of Offizierstellvertreter, etc.) and knew that in order to expand the army enough to win the next war a lot of the social inflexibility of the Kaiserreich would have to be abandoned. The Reichswehr was explicitly designed as a cadre force from its inception, with the understanding that private soldiers, NCOs, and lieutenants would become field-grade officers in the "next war".

Thus, while there was still inevitably some pushback to Hitler's expansionary policies from the higher officers of the early Wehrmacht, and while some of that was due to concerns about the social dilution of the quality of German officership, the majority of the resistance actually came on technical grounds. Most German officers understood the need to vastly expand the army and thus the officer corps, but thought that their military quality was being diluted by how rapidly the new divisions were created, not necessarily their social quality. New formations came on line without even a shred of the full TO&E. The old Reichswehr personnel didn't suffice to provide training cadres for the new thirty-six division force, so training quality was lower. Germany did not end up getting the time to fix these problems before the outbreak of the war, so the Wehrmacht reluctantly acknowledged that their divisions necessarily had a high amount of variation in quality, with the low-numbered formations of the early Wellen ("waves") and the mobile troops at the top of the pyramid and the rest of the leg infantry closer to the bottom. This was a tremendous change from the First World War, which Germany entered possessing a relatively uniform first-line army: every regular division was equivalent in quality (and that quality was very high) and even the reserve divisions primarily differed from the regular forces in terms of available equipment, not troop training. The Wehrmacht's new set of circumstances took adjustment, but it was much more of an adjustment due to military efficiency concerns, not primarily to social hierarchy ones.

Meanwhile, the new military hierarchies that were created in the SS often drew from the members of the old. Himmler and his minions explicitly courted the old Adel on their estates, and had a decent success rate in attracting them to the SS's ranks. Professional men made up another large proportion of SS membership, and could expect to advance further in the organization than the poorer thugs who only counted brutality, bigotry, and the right genes to their name. And while the SS might have been rather more willing to recruit from lower classes than had the old imperial officer corps, it explicitly promised to make these men and their families into the new nobility of the Reich. An SS academy was called a Junkerschule, drawing direct and blatant parallels to the nobility of old, and its curriculum owed a great deal to the old military-school routine. It's hard to find much egalitarianism in the whole setup. Sure, "new men" were recruited into the ruling hierarchy, and some "old men" were kicked out - but that's been true of all sorts of deeply hierarchical regimes throughout history. A king making his drinking and whoring buddies into nobles didn't make his feudal monarchy more "egalitarian".

It's true that some of the "new men" of the Waffen-SS clashed with the Wehrmacht's leaders. It's even possible that disdain for their social standing influenced the problems. But it's frankly easier to see the widespread disdain of the likes of Sepp Dietrich, Felix Steiner, and Theodor Eicke as stemming from their limited competence as military officers, not primarily from their lowborn station. (Steiner was not even lowborn; he had been an officer during the Great War.) When Waffen-SS troops performed well, the Wehrmacht was glad to have them around. When they didn't, the backbiting started.

I agree that Hitler generally opposed the old German officer corps and was willing to reluctantly use them for his own purposes. I just can't see that as anti-hierarchical or egalitarian in any real way because of the existence of the Führerprinzip as one of the fundamental tenets of the Nazi movement. Even more than before, hierarchy assumed control of German lives - the Party ladder especially, from block leaders on up. And it's certainly not particularly leftist to be willing to replace the old thugs in charge with a set of new thugs who are even more in charge.
 
Yeah. Anyone who thinks that the Nazis were leftists is fooling themselves.

To build off of this, the Nazi adoption of the Führerprinzip was intended explicitly to synergize with the fundamentally paternalistic expectations of the German officer corps. In 1934, at the tail end of the Machtergreifung, the Reichswehr published its new officers' leadership manual, Truppenführung. The manual and its emphasis on the leadership principle (among many other things, of course) were not conditioned by the new Nazi leadership. They were old-school German military notions, and the Nazi espousal of the same basic ideas was a happy marriage of the minds.

The massive expansion of the German Army undermined the aristocratic officer corps to an extent, but contra Craig (who in general overstates political grounds for anything occurring in the Prussian-German military) there are a decent amount of modern arguments suggesting that that work had already been done by the experience of the First World War. Reichswehr officers saw how cumbersome the system got with OHL and the Military Cabinet attempting to suppress "mustang" NCOs from becoming officers (expansion of the grade of Offizierstellvertreter, etc.) and knew that in order to expand the army enough to win the next war a lot of the social inflexibility of the Kaiserreich would have to be abandoned. The Reichswehr was explicitly designed as a cadre force from its inception, with the understanding that private soldiers, NCOs, and lieutenants would become field-grade officers in the "next war".

Thus, while there was still inevitably some pushback to Hitler's expansionary policies from the higher officers of the early Wehrmacht, and while some of that was due to concerns about the social dilution of the quality of German officership, the majority of the resistance actually came on technical grounds. Most German officers understood the need to vastly expand the army and thus the officer corps, but thought that their military quality was being diluted by how rapidly the new divisions were created, not necessarily their social quality. New formations came on line without even a shred of the full TO&E. The old Reichswehr personnel didn't suffice to provide training cadres for the new thirty-six division force, so training quality was lower. Germany did not end up getting the time to fix these problems before the outbreak of the war, so the Wehrmacht reluctantly acknowledged that their divisions necessarily had a high amount of variation in quality, with the low-numbered formations of the early Wellen ("waves") and the mobile troops at the top of the pyramid and the rest of the leg infantry closer to the bottom. This was a tremendous change from the First World War, which Germany entered possessing a relatively uniform first-line army: every regular division was equivalent in quality (and that quality was very high) and even the reserve divisions primarily differed from the regular forces in terms of available equipment, not troop training. The Wehrmacht's new set of circumstances took adjustment, but it was much more of an adjustment due to military efficiency concerns, not primarily to social hierarchy ones.

Meanwhile, the new military hierarchies that were created in the SS often drew from the members of the old. Himmler and his minions explicitly courted the old Adel on their estates, and had a decent success rate in attracting them to the SS's ranks. Professional men made up another large proportion of SS membership, and could expect to advance further in the organization than the poorer thugs who only counted brutality, bigotry, and the right genes to their name. And while the SS might have been rather more willing to recruit from lower classes than had the old imperial officer corps, it explicitly promised to make these men and their families into the new nobility of the Reich. An SS academy was called a Junkerschule, drawing direct and blatant parallels to the nobility of old, and its curriculum owed a great deal to the old military-school routine. It's hard to find much egalitarianism in the whole setup. Sure, "new men" were recruited into the ruling hierarchy, and some "old men" were kicked out - but that's been true of all sorts of deeply hierarchical regimes throughout history. A king making his drinking and whoring buddies into nobles didn't make his feudal monarchy more "egalitarian".

It's true that some of the "new men" of the Waffen-SS clashed with the Wehrmacht's leaders. It's even possible that disdain for their social standing influenced the problems. But it's frankly easier to see the widespread disdain of the likes of Sepp Dietrich, Felix Steiner, and Theodor Eicke as stemming from their limited competence as military officers, not primarily from their lowborn station. (Steiner was not even lowborn; he had been an officer during the Great War.) When Waffen-SS troops performed well, the Wehrmacht was glad to have them around. When they didn't, the backbiting started.

I agree that Hitler generally opposed the old German officer corps and was willing to reluctantly use them for his own purposes. I just can't see that as anti-hierarchical or egalitarian in any real way because of the existence of the Führerprinzip as one of the fundamental tenets of the Nazi movement. Even more than before, hierarchy assumed control of German lives - the Party ladder especially, from block leaders on up. And it's certainly not particularly leftist to be willing to replace the old thugs in charge with a set of new thugs who are even more in charge.

Don't disagree with any of that. Fascism is very hierarchical but its also a rejection of the traditional social order. It isn't conservative.
 
Don't disagree with any of that. Fascism is very hierarchical but its also a rejection of the traditional social order. It isn't conservative.
It's a rejection of the traditional social order, which isn't conservative in the sense of, like, Burke, but it's a rejection of relatively short-term traditions to go back to some that are allegedly more ancient and primordial. Fascism in all its guises is simultaneously backward-looking ("things used to be much better until they started to suck more recently") and forward-looking. I think it's fair to label that as some sort of conservatism, or at least right-wing ideology.

Getting into the weeds of whether, say, the Machtergreifung was a revolution or a counterrevolution ("yes") mostly just muddles the fundamental truth that the Nazis were a right-wing movement.
 
It's a rejection of the traditional social order, which isn't conservative in the sense of, like, Burke, but it's a rejection of relatively short-term traditions to go back to some that are allegedly more ancient and primordial. Fascism in all its guises is simultaneously backward-looking ("things used to be much better until they started to suck more recently") and forward-looking. I think it's fair to label that as some sort of conservatism, or at least right-wing ideology.

Getting into the weeds of whether, say, the Machtergreifung was a revolution or a counterrevolution ("yes") mostly just muddles the fundamental truth that the Nazis were a right-wing movement.
Looking back to some glorious imagined past isn't necessarily conservative. It kind of depends on the past you're imagining.

The Nazis definitely co-opted conservatives into their movement, including a lot of old nobility, but most of the leadership was rather revolutionary in their outlook. Hitler and Goering just happened to be two rather glaring exceptions to that rule.
 
Looking back to some glorious imagined past isn't necessarily conservative. It kind of depends on the past you're imagining.

The Nazis definitely co-opted conservatives into their movement, including a lot of old nobility, but most of the leadership was rather revolutionary in their outlook. Hitler and Goering just happened to be two rather glaring exceptions to that rule.
See, this is what I meant by the weeds (and why I put so many weasel phrases into the last two posts). We could spend an awful long time arguing about aspects of movements that everybody agrees were conservative that were simultaneously revolutionary, but it wouldn't really add that much to the discussion. None of this makes Nazism even remotely leftist.
 
See, this is what I meant by the weeds (and why I put so many weasel phrases into the last two posts). We could spend an awful long time arguing about aspects of movements that everybody agrees were conservative that were simultaneously revolutionary, but it wouldn't really add that much to the discussion. None of this makes Nazism even remotely leftist.
Certainly not. The Nazis stole concepts from left-wing groups, and most of the SA were just thugs who couldn't care less if the shirts the wore were brown or red. But the Nazis were absolutely a right-wing movement.
 
It's a rejection of the traditional social order, which isn't conservative in the sense of, like, Burke, but it's a rejection of relatively short-term traditions to go back to some that are allegedly more ancient and primordial. Fascism in all its guises is simultaneously backward-looking ("things used to be much better until they started to suck more recently") and forward-looking. I think it's fair to label that as some sort of conservatism, or at least right-wing ideology.

Getting into the weeds of whether, say, the Machtergreifung was a revolution or a counterrevolution ("yes") mostly just muddles the fundamental truth that the Nazis were a right-wing movement.

I wouldn't disagree for a moment that they were right-wing. I'd call them reactionary rather than conservative. Some reactionaries like Pinochet are also conservative but I think lumping Hitler in with Thatcher and Eisenhower is as inaccurate as lumping in Stalin with Attlee.
 
I wouldn't disagree for a moment that they were right-wing. I'd call them reactionary rather than conservative. Some reactionaries like Pinochet are also conservative but I think lumping Hitler in with Thatcher and Eisenhower is as inaccurate as lumping in Stalin with Attlee.
I mean, if Attlee had served in Stalin's cabinet, we might have a working analogy.
 
I wouldn't disagree for a moment that they were right-wing. I'd call them reactionary rather than conservative. Some reactionaries like Pinochet are also conservative but I think lumping Hitler in with Thatcher and Eisenhower is as inaccurate as lumping in Stalin with Attlee.
Lumping Hitler in with Thatcher is offensive to Hitler.

If we're being as binary as 'left-vs-right' we have no choice but to lump Hitler in with Thatcher, Eisenhower, and even Netanyahu. And Atlee with Stalin, for that matter. One of the reasons why 'left-vs-right' is kind of ridiculous, really.
 
Stalin was right-wing

Stalin did a lot of bad stuff, some strategically bad and some simply bad bad. But I don't thing we was right-wing. He was a tyrant, and later also became a traditionalist in a series of policies as he found out that some traditional ways of doing things were effective. On economic aspects he was further "to the left" than many of those he pushed out of power and killed. On social aspects (family, religion) he was further to the right than most of those but only by soviet standards. Politically he didn't gave up on internationalism, just didn't want to destroy the world over it, he probably saw enough wars to be more sober about what exporting revolutions might require.

It's not serious to classify someone as politically right-wing just because he did evil or stupid things while in power leading you to not want that figure associated with your preferences. The nazis were right-wing, Stalin was left-wing, grossly speaking. The meaning of those terms, right and left, throughout the late 19th and 20th century is what should be considered.
 
On economic aspects he was further "to the left" than many of those he pushed out of power and killed.

How is concentrating economic power in the hands of a corrupt Party oligarchy left-wing in any sense?

On social aspects (family, religion) he was further to the right than most of those but only by soviet standards.

The only social area where I'd say he was remotely left-wing was social equality for women.
 
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