Civ has always had tactical war gaming as part of it. There have always been many ways to win, where war has to some degree been an important aspect, even if to only build a sizable deterrent force to prevent Washington from getting hostile.
*Ahem* Here's me butting into your other replies
I'm very skeptical about the "tactical" part. War certainly has always been a piece of the puzzle, but tactics, in the sense of battlefield maneuvers, seems to have been shallow or nonexistent in previous versions. Outside of maybe terrain modifiers, and a very basic rock-paper-scissors system, the idea seemed to be more about getting forces to strategic areas on the world map, instead of commanding them in the field of battle.
For what it's worth, I don't even think that Civ V's 1upt is a very deep tactical game in and of itself, which only highlights the fact that Civilization is not built on tactical war gaming foundations. As someone who enjoys Total War, surely you have noticed the differences between Civ V and a true wargame. Civ V lacks basic tactical concepts such as morale and routing, cover, friendly fire, ambushes(that would be sweet) and it doesn't really have enough variation in units to advance the rock-paper-scissors concept. 1upt is really only a taste of tactical combat, and for that small taste, other established parts of the series are thrown into jeopardy.
IMO Civilization, as we have come to know it, does not really need tactical combat, but if they absolutely had to go down that route, it's annoying that they seem to have just kind of shoehorned it in, instead of creating something that would play nice with the rest of the established game and would allow for a rich tactical feature. A separate battle map, perhaps. Since you are a fan of TW, would this be acceptable to you?
In switching from SOD to 1UPT, they tweaked the unit cost and production cost to lower the number of units, to remove the micromanagement that having and moving too many pieces individually would result in.
Again, I'm not sure that Civ V really *needs* tactical combat. It's like, when you are changing a bunch of unit costs and production values to make a combat system work, at what point do you step back and ask whether or not the combat system is worth all the changes? "Never," is apparently Firaxis's view on the subject. As much as I disagree with 1upt (which is a relatively recent opinion on my part, mind you,) if the rest of the game was fun I could probably deal with it. But when I'm bored out of my skull in peacetime and the evidence for why points at the one "fun" mechanic, I'm going to get suspicious. Your preferences obviously keep you entertained, and that's okay
I'm just trying to share some insight on my experience.
And SOD certainly has tactical combat too, but it’s not as clever in my opinion, has fewer variations. It generally ended up with whoever had the bigger stack won, rather than the skill/tactics of combat.
I'll put the same question to you that I have put to others who have complained about "Bigger stack wins."
What about this is unrealistic, exactly?
I mean, sure, several historical battles have seen the smaller force win. But we remember those specifically because they are exceptions to the rule, no? It seems to me that if you were the commander of a vastly outnumbered force the best you could hope to do was slow down or demoralize the enemy and get out alive. I'm sure Leonidas didn't realistically think he was going to "win" at Thermopylae. Kill a lot of Persians? Sure. Make them think twice about marching on Greece? Of course. But to honestly triumph over a force of "millions" with a few thousand? This is madness.
I had a blast recreating my own Hot Gates for a while, but when I noticed I was outnumbered and surviving, comfortably, like 90% percent of the time, I remembered that at Thermopylae, all the Spartans died.
I don’t think battles take any more effort with 1UPT using fewer units than SOD does using two or three times as many units. The units are moved more carefully. Battles are more satisfying than seeing the crush of two 12 unit SOD’s.
In terms of the A.I. it does. Having to consider the objective, Cranking out the appropriate units and then having to plan the movements of several units to avoid overlap likely takes a lot of computing power. That's probably a lot harder than being able to ignore unit conflicts with stacking. It's exacerbated by the fact that space is at a premium. Humans get into traffic jams all the time, so imagine the computer's dilemma. Chess AI's handle 1upt well but, then, chess doesn't allow you to create units.
Whether or not battles are more satisfying is, of course, a matter of personal preference, but there are other games better built for tactical warfare. Why does Civilization need to be retrofitted for this?
Auto-resolve is a nice feature for TW as not every battle warrants a full tactical experience, particularly near the end. But, TW’s strength is in those amazing real time battles, whether on an open field, desert, forest or castles. It’s a blend of reasonably complex TBS civilization building and deep strategy, with outstanding real time tactics. AOE games had great real time simulations, but they didn’t offer the deep thinking strategy and civilization building to lead up to battles that TW has.
I agree. My gripe is that Civilization is *not* a wargame series so it doesn't require amazing tactical battles. The irony is that Total War, which IS a wargame and pushes the battles as its main feature, allows players to skip said battles and focus on empire building, while Civ V, an empire-building game, forces you to play every battle out. And this isn't because the devs were negligent. It's because we now have 1upt and each "battle" is simply a series of moves on the world stage. Since we have no stacking, it's impossible to auto-resolve battles for players who want to play the game for it's supposed primary feature. AFAIK, the series has NEVER forced played into such an arrangement before, especially at the expense of the main premise of the series.
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