What 5 Civilizations Should Always Be In Civ?

[Tavenier]

Also, Chinese inventions, Chinese goods and styles and Chinese sages and philosophers have had a tremendous impact on the world. All the Mongols did was kill a lot of people.

True. To position the Mongols above the Chinese is ridiculous. China was the number one economical power until about 1900 England took that role. All the European countries were extremily interested in getting a foothold in China, much like todat the EU, US and others trying to do. China never had any use for western goods. All they wanted was our silver and gold in return for their products. China ventured on voyages of exploration. Invented gunpowder (!). Confucius was Chinese. I could go on and on.
The Mongols were just a destructive power. Just like Nazi-Germany or the Huns. And of course if you brake something, like razing whole cities, killing millions in your path and burn everything you encounter, you'll leave your mark on history. But that can hardly be called a influental civ. Then the Nazi's would top that. Mongolia was destructive and is now just a country with some nomads and just one small city, while China is the biggest country (pop) in the world and on the brink of becoming superpower once again.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Mongols opened the Silk Road after many years. After collapse of Mongols China was united again. Before Mongols there were Jin Empire and Song Empire. After Mongols - China.

 

[Tavenier]

Mongols opened the Silk Road after many years. After collapse of Mongols China was united again. Before Mongols there were Jin Empire and Song Empire. After Mongols - China.

Opening the Silk Road makes you a top 5 Civ? The Silk Road lead to China. Mongols united China. You yourself gave the answer why China should be above Mongolia in a top 10/20/whatever Civ. Everything you mention is about China. Mongols uniting China makes Mongolia a good Civ? So uniting China must be so important!

Thank you.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

I didn't vote for Mongols. Actually I voted Chinese but still defended Mongols.

I think it is rather impressive to see a horde of horsemen conquering everything between Black Sea and Pacific Ocean. That isn't done second time in history. British Empire was quite big, but it was acquired by colonizing empty/stone age time lands. Mongols conquered civilizations, like Khwarizm(?) of Persia. And two Chinese empires.

 

[Tavenier]

I didn't vote for Mongols. Actually I voted Chinese but still defended Mongols.

I think it is rather impressive to see a horde of horsemen conquering everything between Black Sea and Pacific Ocean. That isn't done second time in history. British Empire was quite big, but it was acquired by colonizing empty/stone age time lands. Mongols conquered civilizations, like Khwarizm(?) of Persia. And two Chinese empires.

Ah, Britain indeed conquered empty/stone age time lands. Like India. Cyprus. Gibraltar. Malta. Hongkong. Egypt. South Africa (from Boers). Iraq. And of course, the Chinese, Egyptians, Indians, Spanish, Dutch and Arabs aren't civilizations.

Conquering large pieces of land is relatively easy once you have a succesful edge over your enemies. Mongol Horsemen, Roman Legions, Nazi tanks, and so on. To keep those lands and hold them in your possesion for centuries is a whole different story and takes much more effort then winning a few battles. America conquering Iraq was easy. But to keep stability and order is very difficult.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

India: Split in many nations, technologically centuries behind Britain.
Cyprus: Small Greek island, can't beat Britain in war.
Gibraltar: Britain acquired it by the contract(?) of Utrecht.
Malta: Conquered in Napoleonic wars.
Hongkong: Conquered in the first Opium war from surely pretty unorganized China.
South Africa: I'm not sure about their technological level, I can't complain about British advantage in technology.
Iraq: Conquered in WWI, from disintegrating Ottoman Empire.

China, Egypt, India, Spain, Netherlands and Arabia are civilizations. British Empire was impressive, and wasn't achieved by luck. I just think that destroying civilizations is more glorious in war than taking small cities.

 

[Eskel]

Britain is surely one of the most important countries ever. It is nonsense to discuss this and diminish the importance of their conquests. Nevertheless, I'd preffer Rome or Greece as an archetype of all European civilizations.

Mongols were important, but not as much as Chinese, Indians or Persians.
At the end, how many ppl lives now in the Mongolian culture group, while successors of Chinese, Indians and Persians (who are in some way predecessors of Arab culture) are together a majority of world's population.

 

[Elear]

1) Rome (major europe power)
2) Greece (major europe power)
3) Egypt (major africa power)
4) India (major mid/east power)
5) China (major east power)

 

[Tavenier]

India: Split in many nations, technologically centuries behind Britain.
Cyprus: Small Greek island, can't beat Britain in war.
Gibraltar: Britain acquired it by the contract(?) of Utrecht.
Malta: Conquered in Napoleonic wars.
Hongkong: Conquered in the first Opium war from surely pretty unorganized China.
South Africa: I'm not sure about their technological level, I can't complain about British advantage in technology.
Iraq: Conquered in WWI, from disintegrating Ottoman Empire.

China, Egypt, India, Spain, Netherlands and Arabia are civilizations. British Empire was impressive, and wasn't achieved by luck. I just think that destroying civilizations is more glorious in war than taking small cities.

So you think that controlling all the seas of the world, governing a quarter of the worlds population, having an empire with over 1000 languages, having very powerful cultural civs like Egypt and India in your empire, all this from a country smaller then most US states today is a smaller achievement then the conquests of the Mongol hordes? The Mongols conquered big empty lands, like you said the British did. They used the Asian plains to retreat their army. No agrarian army could pursuit them, because their horses were build for power. To carry armoured knights and not small Mongolian people with no metal armour.
And all the things you said about the British gains could also be said for Mongolian gains. I find defeating Napoleon a larger feat then defeating the ruler of Samarkand, whos name nobody remembers.

Just admit you were wrong and get over it. Your comments are contradicting your own previous statements and are getting more far stretched with every post.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

I'm just saying that Mongols were a militaristic/imperial power, that is unique in the history. And I wouldn't call China, the most populated area in the world as empty land. Or Persia. Or Hungary.

Look who voted England. I did. I thought between Mongols and England, but at the end found British achievements more important than Mongol. We have debated about British Empire and Mongol Empire. I think that Mongol Empire was more impressive. But England has existed for centuries, so they get victory over Mongols with their long existance and effect on industrialism.

 

[Prestidigitator]

My definite choices are
1. Babylon (Sumeria, Assyria or Akkad -same thing).
2. Egypt.
3. Rome.
4. Greece.
5. China.

All others could alternate, but these are the ones which are a historical classic, a formula that just shouldn't change... It's a shame that is did.

 

[Mongolia]

I haven't read all the posts, only the first two pages. Somehow these thread/polls always end up with an arguement between Americans and Europeans. Europeans are amazed that Americans count themselves to be in the top 5 Civs. Americans react by stating WW2 would not have been won if it wasn't for them, and so on.

This always makes me think about the Greeks and the Romans. They were both jealous of eachother. The Greeks were in awe of the military and political power of Rome. Rome was envious of the history, culture and "Great Persons" of the Greeks.
You can compare this easily with nowadays Europe and the US. Europeans used to be the rulers of the world for centuries. Now that role is solely for the Americans. It is the American president or secretary of state that is most involved trying to wok out peace between Israel and Palestine. It is America that has by far the strongest military forces, best aircraft, most carriers, elite forces, and so on.
But the Americans envy European culture and history. Chicago, Los Angeles and New York sure are nice, but they are no Venice, Paris or Edinburgh. Europe has Rembrandt, Newton, Mozart, the Beatles, van Gogh, Marco polo, Beethoven and Erasmus. The US has Elvis, Bill gates and Tom Cruise. The USA have Washington, Lee and Patton. But they are no Caesar, Alexander, Rommel or Napoleon.

So these two-way envy will probably exist until China takes over the role as superpower.
I am a historian and am very thankful what the Americans did for my country, Holland. I know the American government did it just for political purposes, but the young men fighting at Omaha beach didn't. I love America (although I have never been there) for the things they do. I disagree a lot with foreign policies, but the world is probably better off with the USA as superpower then Persia, Arabia or Japan.

And of course, without America I would have never known Darth Vader or Jim Carrey!

My top 5 by the way are:
Rome
Greece
China
India
France
No explanation needed. They are already given by others who voted the same.

Actually the European Union, when counted as a united country, has about equal military power as the United States.

And if the European Union does unite and become a sovereign state (sometime in the far future) it will be a superpower.

 

[Renner]

Rome
Greece
Egypt
Babylon
China

 

[Titus]

Wow, I voted Rome, Greece, Egypt, England, China, without knowing they were already the 5 most popular choices.

 

[LDeska]

I voted for:
Rome
Greece
Egypt
Babylon
Aztecs (or Inka, I chose Aztecs 'cause I had to choose one).

For me those ancient civs should be always in civ, not any modern like Germany, Russia, France, America etc.

edit: ups, I forgot China - they deserve a permanent place too

 

[Hawkeye2007]

I voted India, China, Russia, Ottomans, and Rome.
But I think America should be up there too. A bunch of colonies that in 300 years become the world's foremost superpower is pretty amazing. I think that the only reason people are voting against America is because of Bush. Remember most Americans are against him, and the war, and America does pretty amazing things in the world other than invasions.

 

[Kushluk]

lol. say no to voting america.

 

[SharpMango]

India: Split in many nations, technologically centuries behind Britain.

i beg ur pardon?
india centuries behind i dont think so....
britain conquered india through guile and deceit, tricking its own enemies to fight amongst each other.....and yes india was split into a few nations, but they were strong nations, each with more people than Britain had itself...
Britain conquered india by convincing indian nations to ally with it to conquer a third party, once that third party was conquered, it would ask for a fourth party to help it conquer the second party and betray it....
it was quite clever and convoluted but it worked....

and my friend,
read about the story of Tipu Sultan, the tiger of mysore if you have any doubts about england's skills in defeating technologically advanced opponents....
india stone age.....
plz, no ethno-centric spin...

>>

my top 5
1) rome.......amazing empire, creating civilization out of wilderness

2) china.....technologically ahead for the majority of its history AND a long history of emigration, most indonesians and malaysians are ethnic chinese....these chinese migrated 2000 years ago (im not referring to the second wave of chinese migration who are now minorities in these countries)....3000 years ago, most south east asians looked like australian aborogines.....

3) india.....all of europe strove hard to discover a shortcut to india for a reason, the reason christopher columbus set sail to find india on the far side of the atlantic....untold riches.........historically a hugely wealthy and prosperous land...

4) egypt......
the sphinx was 2,500 years old when the great pyramids of giza started being built.....think about that, that is like the distance from here to 500 years before christ! that is truly an ancient civilization....

5) england- puny pathetic island, conquered a quarter of the world.....gave the world america, canada, australia...changed the culture of south africa and india....
not bad for a tiny island off the shore of a peninsula.....england itself, is under half the size of france...and who got the bigger empire

 

[Ribannah]

1. China
2. Rome
3. England
4. Iroquois
5. Greece

There is only one slot for 'other' or I might choose Dutch over England.

 

[R.B.]

lol. say no to voting america.

What? Why not? America to good&orgonized for you?