What are the next lost lanuages?

Anyway, Pat, what's this about German being completely irrelevant outside its own sphere? False.

What country besides Germany (and Austria) speaks majority German? It is not now and never will be a major international language of business or politics. It is doomed to slide into further irrelevance as globilization continues.

At best it can have aspects of its vocabulary folded into other languages as they continue to evolve, thats about it.

I think you are underestimating nationalism. I'd be all for one world language, but its not going to happen for 1000s of years

I didn't say it was, but the contendors who will duke it out for those 1000s of years will be English/Chinese/Hindi/Spanish with all others eventually falling to the wayside at various times prior as completely extinct or just regional flavors used for frivolous matters.
 
What country besides Germany (and Austria) speaks majority German? It is not now and never will be a major international language of business or politics. It is doomed to slide into further irrelevance as globilization continues.

At best it can have aspects of its vocabulary folded into other languages as they continue to evolve, thats about it.

It just dosent work that way. If it did, there would already be only a few languages in the world. the Germans are not going to willing accept the loss of their language. Its just not going to happen.
 
I didn't say it was, but the contendors who will duke it out for those 1000s of years will be English/Chinese/Hindi/Spanish with all others eventually falling to the wayside at various times prior as completely extinct or just regional flavors used for frivolous matters.

What will the speak in Japan? in Russia? In Brazil? In the Arab world?
 
Because they will eventually become legacy languages as global phenomenon like the interent expand our horizons to the point that our everyday life does not restrict us the town/city or even country. It will eventually be essential to your everyday life to have to talk to people in Russia/Brazil/China every day, and this will be done via languages already adopted as international.

i.e mot German or Polish, which even now are barely relevant outside their own borders let alone worldwide. I think they will both be "house" languages in 150 years.

So you're recanting your earlier claims about the inevitable death of all languages except major international lingua francas?
 
It just dosent work that way. If it did, there would already be only a few languages in the world. the Germans are not going to willing accept the loss of their language. Its just not going to happen.

Despite the title saying lost, I specifically said in the OP that many would lose "precidence over others to the point of making many irrelevant," rather than simply extinct. Thats where German and Polish come in. We are not talking about Latin lost in 150 years.

Has the internet become a greater or less important aspect of the basic functioning of our every day lives in the last decade? Now imagine how fundemental it will be in 150 years. Do we have any major international websites that are solely German right now?

There are plenty of people in Mexico who speak native tongues, but if they want to get anything serious done they speak Spanish because it alows them to communicate across communities. If you wanted to speak with people across Mexico do you learn a regional native tongue of Spanis? If I want to communicate with people across Europe do I learn German or English?
 
So you're recanting your earlier claims about the inevitable death of all languages except major international lingua francas?

You forgot to mention Highlander.

If I want to communicate with people across Europe do I learn German or English?

German.
 
What country besides Germany (and Austria) speaks majority German? It is not now and never will be a major international language of business or politics. It is doomed to slide into further irrelevance as globilization continues.
Switzerland does...surely that tips the scale :mischief:
 
Despite the OP saying lost, I specifically said in the OP that many would lose "precidence over others to the point of making many irrelevant." Thats where German and Polish come in. We are not talking about Latin lost in 150 years.

Has the internet become a greater or less important aspect of the basic functioning of our every day lives in the last decade? Now imagine how fundemental it will be in 150 years. Do we have any major international websites that are solely German right now?

There are plenty of people in Mexico who speak native tongues, but if they want to get anything serious done they speak Spanish because it alows them to communicate across communities. If you wanted to speak with people across Mexico do you learn a regional native tongue of Spanis? If I want to communicate with people across Europe do I learn German or English?

Diglossia between a colonial language and native language in a colonial society is entirely different to prestige native languages in large societies.
 
What will the speak in Japan? in Russia? In Brazil? In the Arab world?

Thats a very good question. Obviously more insular areas (and populous ones) will keep their language intact longer than others. But again, how many interantional Russian websites are there right now compared to the likes of English or Spanish? Do you honestly deny what the established trend will be?

Think about places that are actively integrating. Even in the EU it is inevitable that some languages will gain precidence over other in everday EU affairs. The UN works like this too, sure they have several "official" languages but there are definetly favorites.

So you're recanting your earlier claims about the inevitable death of all languages except major international lingua francas?

Reading the OP before posting is good for you :)
 
Your OP is poorly worded and appallingly contradictory.
 

Are you saying there are more German speakers in England/France/Spain/Italy/Greece/etc. than German. Hell, English will allow me to speak the majority of GERMANS I am likely to run into!

Diglossia between a colonial language and native language in a colonial society is entirely different to prestige native languages in large societies.

Thats nice. If I want to get a bank loan from a major national Mexican bank as a resident of Mexico, what language am I going to be speaking to make that happen?

Your OP is poorly worded and appallingly contradictory.

If that lets you pretend you didn't post before reading it and can't admit it, have at it brotha :)
 
What's that got to do with what I said? You seem to think you've struck something new or novel with the observation that some languages are standard languages and prestige languages and some aren't.
 
Thats a very good question. Obviously more insular areas (and populous ones) will keep their language intact longer than others. But again, how many interantional Russian websites are there right now compared to the likes of English or Spanish? Do you honestly deny what the established trend will be?

But things can change, in very unpredictable ways. Just 20 years ago, you would have included Russian as one of the languages likely to dominate. There's no way now you can predict which languages are in terminal decline (even as working languages), unless they are literally on the brink. Intersting idea for a thread BTW
 
What's that got to do with what I said?

What you said was irrelevant to the topic at hand. Regardless of how Spanish became dominant in Mexico, it in fact is and shows how a group of people with different regional languages are forced to use a common one when interacting on levels ecompassing all those disparate regions to fullfill basic needs.

You seem to think you've struck something new or novel with the observation that some languages are standard languages and prestige languages and some aren't.

I didn't claim to have stuck anything novel, I am simply asking how you think the already well know process will continue to develope.
 
But things can change, in very unpredictable ways. Just 20 years ago, you would have included Russian as one of the languages likely to dominate. There's no way now you can predict which languages are in terminal decline (even as working languages), unless they are literally on the brink.

I don't honestly think anyone thought Russian would become a dominate language. Again, they suffer from the same trick of historical misfortune German does, they didn't get a chance to spread it across multiple continents in brutal colonial conquests. They have vast territory sure, but not vast populations.

Honestly, if only England and France spoke English and French they would not be international languages either. Hindi and Chinese have gained their status over others via a different rougte, shear number of speakers. I do think they have a disadvantage over languages like English and Spanish though, as they don't have nearly the dispersion.

Intersting idea for a thread BTW

I wanted a topic I discuss without causing too much rancor :D
 
I don't honestly think anyone thought Russian would become a dominate language. Again, they suffer from the same trick of historical misfortune German does, they didn't get a chance to spread it across multiple continents in brutal colonial conquests. They have vast territory sure, but not vast populations.

??? Are you serious? the entire former USSR and the Warsaw Pact countries? there was something like 350m people there
 
Diglossia between a colonial language and native language in a colonial society is entirely different to prestige native languages in large societies.
Precisely.

As a native Swedish speaker I can with some confidence say that it's not going extinct anytime soon.

The usefulness of an international second language has ALWAYS been bloody apparent for speakers of small languages. It used to be Latin, and yet everyone went and invented national languages galore. And then for a while it was French, unless one was predominately talking maritime and business stuff, where it was Dutch, before it looked like German was going to take the cake, despite heavy competition from French and English, before we ended up with the present US orientation. If in the future Mandarin is the way to go, I expect Swedes to become quite adept at it, which still isn't necessarily going to do more to Swedish than add another dent of linguistic history to it.

For all the while Swedish was doing fine. There are more Swedish speakers in the world now than ever. Not that they were ever plentiful, but considering the historically abyssmal numbers, things are pretty sweet. Though I guess Finnish is doing relatively better, not even being recognised as an official language for most of recorded history, and starting out with a population base of about 300 000 in the 16th c. Norwegian was similarily disadvantaged.

And what happens when you get a good saturation of secondary language knowledge in a society is in fact that the native speaker become more aware of their native language as well, becoming adept at keeping the two separate. It is after all perfectly possible to keep two thoughts, or two languages, active at the same time.

This doesn't happen in the same way in large, apparently self-sufficient languages, that come under preassure from another language, which is why there are at present more English loan-words in 100 million speakers-German, than there are in 10 million speakers-Swedish. But even that isn't any particular cause for concern, as languages have always been nicking loads of stuff from each other.
 
I think you are underestimating nationalism. I'd be all for one world language, but its not going to happen for 1000s of years

I don't even think it is a matter of nationalism but of practicability. I don't know what makes you think (well at least Pat) that the need of a "international" language will make the native language disappear. It won't. In many countries a "business" language has existed for decades without making the local language disappear (as long as the population is big enough to regenerate by itself ). Take India for example, English and Hindi have been the "business" language for decades already, people still speak Tamil in Tamil Nadu and Malayalam in Kerala.
People will always speak with their kids the langauge they spoke with their mom, because it is easier for them. An international language allowing them to communicate with the "international community" will always remain just that. And we tend to "exagerate" the size of this communication also. Honestly most poeple would just communicate with the people in their city, and even those who work a lot with other countries woul still be talking more with family and colleagues than with the outside world.
I actually have that kind of job. I spend my day talking with people in UK, US, Japan, Poland, etc all in English, read stuff and docs in english, visit internet forums in english ;-), yet I still speak french wayyyyyyyy more than I speak english in a given day
 
What you said was irrelevant to the topic at hand. Regardless of how Spanish became dominant in Mexico, it in fact is and shows how a group of people with different regional languages are forced to use a common one when interacting on levels ecompassing all those disparate regions to fullfill basic needs.

No, it's directly relevant, even if you don't understand terms like diglossia or prestige. The situation in colonial societies cannot be compared to Germany or Poland.

Not all instances of language contact are the same. The imposition of Spanish or English over native populations was the direct result of massive violence, conquest and dispossession. It wasn't that they were forced to "interact with each other" (what the hell sort of outdated colonial fantasy world is that? do you think Europeans just waltzed in and unified a bunch of tribes or something?), it was that their societies were largely destroyed and they were forced to interact with their conquerers, abusers, suppliers and jailers in the language of the conquerers, abusers, suppliers and jailers. The present situation also reflects the ongoing power imbalances of speakers of the native languages with speakers of the colonial language - the speakers of those languages are almost universally poor and uneducated and so the colonial language is essentially the only path to access basic services, any sort of education, etc.

None of this is applicable in Germany, Poland, Vietnam, etc, coherent societies that operate on their own internal languages. It's an enirely different language contact phenomenon, and you cannot confuse it with a colonial process. I don't get why so many people (anglophones again) don't really understand that there's no difficulty in not speaking the global lingua franca except when you're in certain fields. In a non-English-speaking society, you don't need English to repair cars or sell groceries to little old ladies or read the news on local TV or teach in primary schools or babysit someone's kids or join the infantry or do 1000 other things that don't involve long-distance phone-calls, reading foreign publications, managing a multinational company, etc. What the hell sort of future globalisation process do people imagine will happen that will lead English to replace these every day activities in, say, Italy or Portugal? There is no way in hell Swedes or Poles are ever going to need English in order to "fulfill basic needs" in their own countries.

There's an entire industry of translators and localisers who are perfectly capable of serving as a conduit between the products of major international languages and their own local one. That's not readily going to disappear. If thoroughly globalised Sweden can have a population which almost totally speaks English, with NO SIGN of Swedish being replaced as mother tongue or official language, then it's just not going to happen outside of that colonial setting.

The problem is you haven't defined your terms - you're talking about at least 4 linguistic concepts at once: language death, lingua francas (languages used beyond their native community, typically for trade), diglossia (the stable conexistance of two languages in one society, with one the language of learning and education, the other a personal language used with family and friends) and prestige languages (the language or variant a society values, sees as educated, sophisticated, etc). As a result you keep confusing entirely dissimilar phenomena and you're repeatedly giving the impression that you think if a language isn't used in international trade and diplomacy, it's going to disappear just like native ones in areas conquered by Europeans did, or are doing.
 
I like you, Arwon.
 
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