What Are Your Tactics for Building on Plains in CIV IV?

sampsa

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I don't get a lot of GP early if I'm going for a culture run. My ideal strat (if possible) is to get Pyramids, then use an engineer to rush-build Sistine Chapel, especially if I don't have marble. I also like to rush wonders in general rather than get Golden Ages. I really like Great Lighthouse and Colossus because I frequently find myself claiming cities along the coast after pushing as far inwards as comfortable.
I think rushing wonders is in general not a great play, using GE for golden age is better. Compare the payback of the two and you'll understand. I consider only GM and GS as strong :gp:s. GLH and Mids are game changers under the right conditions, sure.
 

Plains-Cow

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I think rushing wonders is in general not a great play, using GE for golden age is better. Compare the payback of the two and you'll understand. I consider only GM and GS as strong :gp:s. GLH and Mids are game changers under the right conditions, sure.
I always like to supplement my economy with coastal cities, especially when financial. So long as there is a food tile, I'll even settle in ice (albeit last lol) so that I can get the financial income bonus for working the water tiles. That's also why I really like Great Lighthouse and Colossus a lot.

I feel like the payback you get for rush-building certain wonders is usually better than Golden Ages long-term, depending on the wonder, unless you have a big empire that can take advantage of all the production. Then I'll usually Golden Age. If I'm boxed-in, I find myself more likely to strategically rush-build wonders that I otherwise would be beaten to building because my land holdings are so small or in not-so-great areas. Can you further explain the payback of a Golden Age overall?

One thing I never do is settle my GP as specialists. Do you? If so, when and why?
 

sampsa

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I always like to supplement my economy with coastal cities, especially when financial. So long as there is a food tile, I'll even settle in ice (albeit last lol) so that I can get the financial income bonus for working the water tiles. That's also why I really like Great Lighthouse and Colossus a lot.
Yes, I agree that settling every seafood as fast as you can is in general a good play! GLH is important, Colossus is cheap and decent though it goes obsolete very early.

I feel like the payback you get for rush-building certain wonders is usually better than Golden Ages long-term, depending on the wonder, unless you have a big empire that can take advantage of all the production. Then I'll usually Golden Age. If I'm boxed-in, I find myself more likely to strategically rush-build wonders that I otherwise would be beaten to building because my land holdings are so small or in not-so-great areas. Can you further explain the payback of a Golden Age overall?
Well, but you don't need to spend a GE to get a wonder. Forests are for that.

The payback of golden age comes from having several cities run as many specialists as possible under caste+paci. Gaining something like 5000:science: during 8T is not unheard of. Anyway, it's thousands of :science: vs some 400:hammers: of rushing a wonder.

In general, if your land holdings are small, you should attack at construction.

One thing I never do is settle my GP as specialists. Do you? If so, when and why?
Close to never. If very early, probably thanks to PHI.
 

Plains-Cow

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Yes, I agree that settling every seafood as fast as you can is in general a good play! GLH is important, Colossus is cheap and decent though it goes obsolete very early.


Well, but you don't need to spend a GE to get a wonder. Forests are for that.

The payback of golden age comes from having several cities run as many specialists as possible under caste+paci. Gaining something like 5000:science: during 8T is not unheard of. Anyway, it's thousands of :science: vs some 400:hammers: of rushing a wonder.

In general, if your land holdings are small, you should attack at construction.


Close to never. If very early, probably thanks to PHI.
Do you prefer to go inland or stay to the coast when settling first? I like to claim land inward based on resources that I can scout out, then I usually settle the coast later after "walling off" the AI with culture.

Do you like to split seafood between cities when there are 2 fish or 2 crab or 2 clams next to one another so that you can work more water tiles overall, or do you like to have one city with both of the food tiles for faster growth?

Which specialists are you running for that 5000 sci? All scientists in all cities to get Great Scientists? Do you run specialists into starvation during a Golden Age? I've experimented with that before .

When attacking at construction, do you like to whip the army and stack slavery anger? Otherwise I'd imagine that the AI would tech away by the time your invasion force was ready.
 

sampsa

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Do you prefer to go inland or stay to the coast when settling first? I like to claim land inward based on resources that I can scout out, then I usually settle the coast later after "walling off" the AI with culture.
Inland cities are certainly better. Coast is mediocre.
Do you like to split seafood between cities when there are 2 fish or 2 crab or 2 clams next to one another so that you can work more water tiles overall, or do you like to have one city with both of the food tiles for faster growth?
In general, a city with double :food: is better than two cities with one :food:-resource.
Which specialists are you running for that 5000 sci? All scientists in all cities to get Great Scientists? Do you run specialists into starvation during a Golden Age? I've experimented with that before .
GS(bulb) or GM(mission). Starve if you have to.
When attacking at construction, do you like to whip the army and stack slavery anger? Otherwise I'd imagine that the AI would tech away by the time your invasion force was ready.
Chop all forests and stack whip anger if needed. I think a construction war never fails below deity if pulled off in a decent fashion. The window is just insanely long.
 

Gumbolt

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You really need to post saves so we can see what you are doing. Your getting a lot of advice here but a save would tell so much more.

Instead of spamming wonders plan wars and capture them. If you have stone and marble wonders like Hanging Gardens and mids are so cheap to build. A settled GE long term is perhaps better than rushing 300-500 hammer wonders. If I chop 6 forest with maths and stone that is 360 hammers. More if you have hammer multipliers. Golden age is even better with GE.

I think 5k science assumes you have a reasonably sized empire. On my current game each turn gives 150+ beakers under golden age. If I got 3xGS that could be 6-7k beakers from bulbs. Plus 1k from science due to +1c per commerce tile. Better if I run wealth too.
 

Plains-Cow

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Inland cities are certainly better. Coast is mediocre.

In general, a city with double :food: is better than two cities with one :food:-resource.

GS(bulb) or GM(mission). Starve if you have to.

Chop all forests and stack whip anger if needed. I think a construction war never fails below deity if pulled off in a decent fashion. The window is just insanely long.
Noted. How big do you like your cities to get before going for a Golden Age to starve for great people? I assume it's a Great Person farm?

When it comes to pre-Deity wars around Construction, how long do you think the window is on most games?

You really need to post saves so we can see what you are doing. Your getting a lot of advice here but a save would tell so much more.

Instead of spamming wonders plan wars and capture them. If you have stone and marble wonders like Hanging Gardens and mids are so cheap to build. A settled GE long term is perhaps better than rushing 300-500 hammer wonders. If I chop 6 forest with maths and stone that is 360 hammers. More if you have hammer multipliers. Golden age is even better with GE.

I think 5k science assumes you have a reasonably sized empire. On my current game each turn gives 150+ beakers under golden age. If I got 3xGS that could be 6-7k beakers from bulbs. Plus 1k from science due to +1c per commerce tile. Better if I run wealth too.
I asked you in post 40 how to go about sharing.

Some games I am interested in peacemongering and like to not declare wars.

I'd be interested in settling a GE in a city that's more focused on production. When did the terms like "production city" become archaic? What's the new meta?

What's your current run looking like win-wise? Are you going to do an AAR?
 

Fippy

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Catapults until Castles i'd say, in theory they can prolly do the job in big numbers for longer but at some point it becomes inefficient.
Longbows can still be defeated without superhuge stacks.
 

Gumbolt

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You normally have a saved games folder on PC? There is an attach file option on this forum.

Not gonna do a report on my game as many here don't play huge maps. I will likely spam 110+ cuirs. Roll over the AI quickly.

How many cities do you have by 1500BC. 1AD and 1000AD? If you are peace mongering you could be stuck on 5-8 cities for a very long time. You won't win at immortal doing that.
 

sampsa

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Noted. How big do you like your cities to get before going for a Golden Age to starve for great people? I assume it's a Great Person farm?
As big as possible, usually meaning to at least :health:-cap, also :food:-bar to as high as possible for starving. :)-cap is unlimited at HR, so that's not an issue. So in practice you should have 3-4 cities at least size 10, starting the GA around 1AD.

For me, there isn't really a thing like GP-farm, such roles are mainly temporary. Except the NE-city (if I build one) which will generate :gp: beyond the GA-burst, which is often not worth much though due to higher cost and no modifiers from GA+paci.
When it comes to pre-Deity wars around Construction, how long do you think the window is on most games?
Until 1000AD at least. There is not much that can stop a number of cats+anything, especially if you have elephants to protect the stack. Most immortal pangaea games can be won with catapults.
Some games I am interested in peacemongering and like to not declare wars.
Wars offer the human player a massive edge. Don't miss out on that.
I'd be interested in settling a GE in a city that's more focused on production. When did the terms like "production city" become archaic? What's the new meta?
Every city that can whip is a production city. Every city that can run specialists is a GP-farm. Thus nearly all your cities should be able to take any role your empire needs (except the weak ones with no :food:) and usually cities should be fulfilling the same goal at the same time. Think of waves. And don't be interested in settling :gp:.. ;)
 

Plains-Cow

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You normally have a saved games folder on PC? There is an attach file option on this forum.

Not gonna do a report on my game as many here don't play huge maps. I will likely spam 110+ cuirs. Roll over the AI quickly.

How many cities do you have by 1500BC. 1AD and 1000AD? If you are peace mongering you could be stuck on 5-8 cities for a very long time. You won't win at immortal doing that.
Yeah, I find myself under-expanding on Immortal all the time at about 6 cities on average.

I never though cuirs would be such a strong meta.

As big as possible, usually meaning to at least :health:-cap, also :food:-bar to as high as possible for starving. :)-cap is unlimited at HR, so that's not an issue. So in practice you should have 3-4 cities at least size 10, starting the GA around 1AD.

For me, there isn't really a thing like GP-farm, such roles are mainly temporary. Except the NE-city (if I build one) which will generate :gp: beyond the GA-burst, which is often not worth much though due to higher cost and no modifiers from GA+paci.

Until 1000AD at least. There is not much that can stop a number of cats+anything, especially if you have elephants to protect the stack. Most immortal pangaea games can be won with catapults.

Wars offer the human player a massive edge. Don't miss out on that.

Every city that can whip is a production city. Every city that can run specialists is a GP-farm. Thus nearly all your cities should be able to take any role your empire needs (except the weak ones with no :food:) and usually cities should be fulfilling the same goal at the same time. Think of waves. And don't be interested in settling :gp:.. ;)
Trust me, as I said, I don't settle my Great People. However, I was interested in what you said about settling a Great Engineer early to get more hammers in the long-run. What are your thoughts on grocers and markets? They a waste of hammers that would be better spent on military units? Do you always target an AI for early elimination after Construction is researched?

It sounds like you would give some good tutorials. Ever thought of doing YouTube stuff?
 

Izuul

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Don't work them but for a few exceptions. Plains river cottages are fine if the city has alot of food (especially the cap). State property also makes plains watermills and workshops good. And maybe river plains tiles are OK during golden ages.

That's probably about it.
 

sampsa

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Yeah, I find myself under-expanding on Immortal all the time at about 6 cities on average.

I never though cuirs would be such a strong meta.
Expand as hard and fast as you can to at least 4 cities (meaning chop a lot, whip if needed), set up cottages and granaries, whip more settlers. Expanding to 8-12 cities is often not hard. If you are boxed in to 4-5 cities, attack at construction or HBR. Cuirassiers are very strong, because gunpowder units ignore walls/castle.

Trust me, as I said, I don't settle my Great People. However, I was interested in what you said about settling a Great Engineer early to get more hammers in the long-run.
I didn't mention settling a GE. :lol: In general in this game, short run is a lot more important than long run. If we are being generous, maybe settling is worth 15:science:/T. Remember what I estimated the value of a golden age to be.

What are your thoughts on grocers and markets? They a waste of hammers that would be better spent on military units?
Grocers and markets are very weak in conquest games (as most buildings are), but I'd build them in space games.

Do you always target an AI for early elimination after Construction is researched?
If I go for construction, I go for it for purpose of taking an AI out, yes. If I don't go for construction asap, it's just another tech to be backfilled later.

It sounds like you would give some good tutorials. Ever thought of doing YouTube stuff?
I won't be making YouTube content. Enough on my hands right now.

I think you would benefit a lot from watching a few Lain games. His play teaches you zero bad habits, his strategy is very good and he is technically accurate. Of course you need to have a very good grasp of the basics to understand what he is doing. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBiPHqnZ3mwIqtraltox6jg
 

sylvanllewelyn

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In the early game, the happiness limit is not usually high enough to work all the tiles within your cultural borders. You don't work many plains tiles early on because there are usually better tiles. Plains cottages are uncommon, not because they are plains tiles per se, but because you don't work plains tiles early, and cottages should be worked early. If you have no choice but to work plains tiles in your early cities, then you are going to work plains cottages.

Sidenote: if I am given a choice between working riverside plains tiles and attacking a neighbour for riverside grassland tiles...

The happiness limit increases as the game progresses and worker turns are less valuable, so you start working more plains tiles. Cottages are usually not a good choice because there is not enough time to grow them into towns. You can build farms for spreading irrigation once you unlock civil service. Once you unlock chemistry, electricity, and communism, you can build workshops and watermills.
 

Plains-Cow

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Expand as hard and fast as you can to at least 4 cities (meaning chop a lot, whip if needed), set up cottages and granaries, whip more settlers. Expanding to 8-12 cities is often not hard. If you are boxed in to 4-5 cities, attack at construction or HBR. Cuirassiers are very strong, because gunpowder units ignore walls/castle.


I didn't mention settling a GE. :lol: In general in this game, short run is a lot more important than long run. If we are being generous, maybe settling is worth 15:science:/T. Remember what I estimated the value of a golden age to be.


Grocers and markets are very weak in conquest games (as most buildings are), but I'd build them in space games.


If I go for construction, I go for it for purpose of taking an AI out, yes. If I don't go for construction asap, it's just another tech to be backfilled later.


I won't be making YouTube content. Enough on my hands right now.

I think you would benefit a lot from watching a few Lain games. His play teaches you zero bad habits, his strategy is very good and he is technically accurate. Of course you need to have a very good grasp of the basics to understand what he is doing. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBiPHqnZ3mwIqtraltox6jg
I try to expand fast, but I need to cottage for my economy or else it crashes unless I can find gold to settle. I usually play on a standard size map. I am aware about ignoring walls and castles, but I find that sometimes the AI is close to gunpowder at times before my cuir rush. They also seen to take a lot of pop to whip.

Oh, I thought that you were supporting Gumbolt's point that a settled GE would be better long-term in post 46.

Do you do culture games? I know that markets and grocers don't add much when you are running the science slider at 100%, but don't they provide any benefit at all to the sliders? Or is it just when you are running gold alone?

I will look into the videos from the channel you linked!
 

sampsa

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I try to expand fast, but I need to cottage for my economy or else it crashes unless I can find gold to settle.
Just settle those 4 cities close and have them immediately connected. Then worry about cottages. You never need gold (the resource).
Do you do culture games?
No. Never found a reason to do that.
I know that markets and grocers don't add much when you are running the science slider at 100%, but don't they provide any benefit at all to the sliders? Or is it just when you are running gold alone?
:gold:-multiplier buildings do nothing (except :)/:health:-benefit) when ":gold:-slider" is at 0%. In general, you should aim to be running mostly 100% :science:-slider while in tech mode. After you've reached necessary military techs, gold doesn't really matter anymore. Main disadvantage of market/grocer is the insanely high price (150:hammers:).
 

Gumbolt

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Not played a culture game in a long while not to say culture can't be fun. It does require a few religions. That or the spy trick spreading culture using 40-50+ spies. Have a look at some of the SGOTM series for that.Plastic Ducks team I think used it first? They then did a game where you had to use it where they had a gold member theme.

6 cities is a very low target if you want to win 100% games. No reason with an early rush you can't secure 8-10 cities or more. HA rushes can be quite strong for a long while. Nothing really counters cuirs either till muskets and grenadiers slow you down a bit. Rifles would be the main killer for cuirs with city defence bonus. When I play huge maps 20 cities before cuirs is possible. On smaller maps 10-12 pending how you play. Phants make warfare so much easier.

No one is saying one way is right for this game but a meta is generally formed in play styles to beat higher levels. You don't win games by spamming wonders/buildings and staying at 6 cities. Play to win. Don't just wait for game to happen.
 

Plains-Cow

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Just settle those 4 cities close and have them immediately connected. Then worry about cottages. You never need gold (the resource).

No. Never found a reason to do that.

:gold:-multiplier buildings do nothing (except :)/:health:-benefit) when ":gold:-slider" is at 0%. In general, you should aim to be running mostly 100% :science:-slider while in tech mode. After you've reached necessary military techs, gold doesn't really matter anymore. Main disadvantage of market/grocer is the insanely high price (150:hammers:).
I plan to. I never get crunched THAT badly for land, I just find a need to balance out once I have those four cities. Do you ever go archery, or do you prefer to barb-bust with warriors?

Never found a reason to try a culture game? Not even for fun? lol That's why I like them sometimes.

I get that gold multipliers do nothing when the gold slider is zero'd, but what about when shutting off the research slider and rush-buying things? Or is that too late into most games that you play?

Not played a culture game in a long while not to say culture can't be fun. It does require a few religions. That or the spy trick spreading culture using 40-50+ spies. Have a look at some of the SGOTM series for that.Plastic Ducks team I think used it first? They then did a game where you had to use it where they had a gold member theme.

6 cities is a very low target if you want to win 100% games. No reason with an early rush you can't secure 8-10 cities or more. HA rushes can be quite strong for a long while. Nothing really counters cuirs either till muskets and grenadiers slow you down a bit. Rifles would be the main killer for cuirs with city defence bonus. When I play huge maps 20 cities before cuirs is possible. On smaller maps 10-12 pending how you play. Phants make warfare so much easier.

No one is saying one way is right for this game but a meta is generally formed in play styles to beat higher levels. You don't win games by spamming wonders/buildings and staying at 6 cities. Play to win. Don't just wait for game to happen.
I just like trolling AI borders and claiming cities with culture. It's fun, what can I say?

I don't have any issue hitting 6 cities, but when expanding, I like to focus on backfilling rather than settling the coast first (unless I am near an AI who can get it first and there's an insane resource number I can grab with one city). For your cuirs, how many cities do you aim for on standard? Do you go for HA and promote for withdraw or straight combat line?

I know there is no "one right" way. That's why I like CIV IV so much more than the others lol.
 

sampsa

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Do you ever go archery, or do you prefer to barb-bust with warriors?
On non-deity, you don't need to go archery in general. It's safer to do so though and safety is good.
Never found a reason to try a culture game? Not even for fun?
No.
what about when shutting off the research slider and rush-buying things? Or is that too late into most games that you play?
I remember once playing a game where rush buying came into play. I wouldn't put a lot of emphasis on it.
 

Gumbolt

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Backfilling is not a bad thing. Land grabbing near your closest AI to choke or plan an early attack is good. On Immortal they can have a second city before 3000bc. On a good game no reason not to have 4 cities by 2000bc. With imperialist 5+ can be possible. With warfare 10 or so by 1ad. Maybe less if you wait for cuirs and stay peaceful. 6 seems low.

I don't get this culture thing and trolling AI borders. If you take out an AI city and it's still covered in it's culture from nearby cities its more likely to revolt. Chances of cities revolting due to your culture is low. You would need to control most of the city tiles with your culture. It won't win you games.

If I was playing Mongols maybe withdraw. Normally just combat promo. Current game 18 cities 1000ad huge map. Normal map maybe less. I could easily spam 100 cuirs quickly on huge maps. With 8-10 cities it takes longer whipping units.
 
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