What civilizations do you miss in BTS?

[cybrxkhan]

^thanks for advertising our stuff.

 

[Antilogic]

Wow, what a shameless plug.

@Öjevind Lång: We were talking about Mediterranean polytheistic religions, if I'm not mistaken, not eastern ones. Specifically, the notion that Greek polytheism should be added as a major religion, which it shouldn't.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Wow, what a shameless plug.

@Öjevind Lång: We were talking about Mediterranean polytheistic religions, if I'm not mistaken, not eastern ones. Specifically, the notion that Greek polytheism should be added as a major religion, which it shouldn't.

Agreed. If anything, I'd like to see a schism mechanic...

 

[dragodon64]

Like Christianity splitting into Catholicism and Protestantism or Islam into Sunni and Shi'ite? Would be really cool but I think it would be too big to be a random event. Maybe and AP related event?

 

[Antilogic]

Right now, there is a heresy event. I suppose we have to be content with that.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Wow, what a shameless plug.

@Öjevind Lång: We were talking about Mediterranean polytheistic religions, if I'm not mistaken, not eastern ones. Specifically, the notion that Greek polytheism should be added as a major religion, which it shouldn't.

I had no idea that discussing other polytheistic religions than those of the Mediterranean was forbidden. I still don't see why how that could be somehow forbidden. As for the crack about a "shameless plug", I honestly don't know what you are talking about. As for saying that Greek polytheism should not be added as a religion, that may be your opinion, but it can't be claimed to be an obvious fact.

Edit: OK - now I see what "the shameless plug" comment was about. But I still maintain that including, for example, Greek monotheism might be a good idea, if it doesn't break the game.

 

[D Wolf]

Ha, Indonesia would be a cool addition. We do after all have the world's 4th largest population and the world's largest Islamic populace to boot

 

[Optimizer]

The high score for Polynesia is a bit strange. I wonder how many civers who can name one suitable leader and five cities. Polynesia have never been a sovereign, united political entity.

 

[Supr49er]

Hittites.
Phoenicians.
Israelis

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

The high score for Polynesia is a bit strange. I wonder how many civers who can name one suitable leader and five cities. Polynesia have never been a sovereign, united political entity.

There're a lot of peoples that fall under the broad heading of "Polynesia." Hawaii, for example. King Kamehama. Then you have the Maori in New Zealand and peoples all throughout the Pacific all the way to Easter Island, IIRC.

 

[Antilogic]

I had no idea that discussing other polytheistic religions than those of the Mediterranean was forbidden. I still don't see why how that could be somehow forbidden. As for the crack about a "shameless plug", I honestly don't know what you are talking about. As for saying that Greek polytheism should not be added as a religion, that may be your opinion, but it can't be claimed to be an obvious fact.

Edit: OK - now I see what "the shameless plug" comment was about. But I still maintain that including, for example, Greek monotheism might be a good idea, if it doesn't break the game.

First, that simplistic response was to carry the discussion back to the subject that was being discussed before the WoL people threw out their list, on religions. I know it can't be claimed as obvious fact, but if you read the posts on the last couple pages, you would see where I was coming from in the discussion. That's the thesis I'm presenting, so I presented it again. That simple.

The Mediterranean religions came about as an example. I can only comment with any specific examples on the Mediterranean because I have not extensively studied the Far East, but if you have, feel free to add stuff in. However, read in the Civilopedia under the Paganism civic, I think, or in the game designer notes. It says they threw all the polytheistic religions into the "pagan" category simply because there were far too many, and instead focused on the major modern religions that are currently present.

I'm not sure what Greek monotheism is...are you referring to Greek Orthodox?

Adding more religions wouldn't break the game, it's just that, according to the Firaxians, the optimal number of religions is 7. Only a couple religions gain major following in the games anyway...when have you had 7 strong religious factions vying for the top? Typically, there are 1-3, and rarely 4.

However, my earlier posts on the Mediterranean Greek polytheism highlight why I don't think it should be a major religion. The ancient Greek religion and what we call religion today are very different things. You didn't go to a temple to pray or find your spiritual center, it was just for the purpose of bribing some capricious fellow to help you. The character itself of the Greek religion led people to abandoning it in favor of mystery cults and eventually Christianity.


@Lance of Llanwy: Yes, you can name some leaders for Polynesia, but I think his point was that many Civ4 players could not. I can because I have read this thread and assume the leaders mentioned are real (I haven't studied Polynesian history).

I think the Polynesians are as a bizarre a choice as the Plains Indians, represented by the "Native Americans".

 

[blakos]

The Maori of New Zealand. Pionneers of trench warfare. Well fortified and established civilisation. Stronger than any other Polynesian civ. As they contolled large land mass and had a well drilled and adaptive military. Not to mention a sizy poulation pre-european contact.
Sarting techs hunting/fishing.

 

[blakos]

Could name at least three famous Maori leaders.

 

[Carabodes]

Why, oh why have you left out Norway?
Denmark we already have, Ragnar is a dane.
Put in Gange-Rolv and let him conquer Normandie all over again!

Edit: @blakos - yeah, maori would be great representatives of Oceania.

 

[blakos]

Possibly more. i could name 50 plus cities

 

[blakos]

@cyberxkhan

What do the leaders get for the agarian and seafaring traits?

Maori Civilisation
Starting techs: Hunting/Fishing

UU:Warrior Mustketmanreplaces Musketman
10/1 Starts with Guerilla I, +25% vs Gunpowder units

UB: Pa replaces Granary
+1 health from Corn, Rice, Wheat, Kumara
half the city’s food supply remains after population growth
+3 XP for new Land Units
+2 happy with Nationhood


Proposed new Trait

Tactical
25% boost when researching military technology
50% production boost when building Barracks, Airport and Drydock
All melee/gunpowder units start with Guerilla I promotion.

Leaders: (All leaders favourite civic- nationhood)

Kawiti - Protective, Tactical

Hone Heke - Aggressive, Charasmatic

Te Kooti - Spiritual, Tactical

Te Rauparaha - Charasmatic, Tactical


Notes: Great Unique buliding. Barracks/Granary in one.

Probably went a bit overboard with UU and UB

 

[cybrxkhan]

What do the leaders get for the agarian and seafaring traits?

see my link, but, i'm not here to promote my mod. (we've already decided on civs anyway, Polynesia's in)

personally, i think Polynesians are a much better choice than the HRE

 

[Antilogic]

@cyberxkhan

What do the leaders get for the agarian and seafaring traits?

Maori Civilisation
Starting techs: Hunting/Fishing

UU:Warrior Mustketmanreplaces Musketman
10/1 Starts with Guerilla I, +25% vs Gunpowder units

UB: Pa replaces Granary
+1 health from Corn, Rice, Wheat, Kumara
half the city’s food supply remains after population growth
+3 XP for new Land Units
+2 happy with Nationhood


Proposed new Trait

Tactical
25% boost when researching military technology
50% production boost when building Barracks, Airport and Drydock
All melee/gunpowder units start with Guerilla I promotion.

Leaders: (All leaders favourite civic- nationhood)

Kawiti - Protective, Tactical

Hone Heke - Aggressive, Charasmatic

Te Kooti - Spiritual, Tactical

Te Rauparaha - Charasmatic, Tactical


Notes: Great Unique buliding. Barracks/Granary in one.

Probably went a bit overboard with UU and UB

You think?

Your UB is a granary that gives +1 health with "kumara", +3 XP for land units, +2 happiness with Nationhood. Is that supposed to be a barracks replacement that gives you additional health? And a musket that gives +1 strength, free Guerilla I, and +25% vs. gunpowder units? I cannot figure out how that Tactical trait will affect the game, but that is not an approach I would recommend: there are still unused trait combos.

I simply do not understand why so many player-suggested Civs are so brokenly strong. I tried to consider balance with my Hittite Civ suggestion (although that is in another thread).

 

[Dracleath]

From another thread, my "ultimate" list of civ additions would be as follows:

Civs I'd like to see (I'm not particularly going to go the route of trying to justify these as "major" civs, but I think they were all at least somewhat important or notable and would make interesting additions):

Europe:

Minoans
Italians
Poles
Lithuanians (pre-christian era)
Moors/Berbers/Andalusians
Magyar

Middle East:

Hittites
Israelis/Hebrews
Assyrians
Phoenicians

Americas:

Iroquois
Souix
Apache/Navaho (these three replacing native americans, of course)
Brazil

Asia:

Moghuls
Siamese/Thai
Malays/Majapahit
Vietnamese
Polynesians



Africa:

Ashanti
Shona/zimbabwean




Yeah I know it's excessive.

 

[blakos]

You think?

Your UB is a granary that gives +1 health with "kumara", +3 XP for land units, +2 happiness with Nationhood. Is that supposed to be a barracks replacement that gives you additional health? And a musket that gives +1 strength, free Guerilla I, and +25% vs. gunpowder units? I cannot figure out how that Tactical trait will affect the game, but that is not an approach I would recommend: there are still unused trait combos.

I simply do not understand why so many player-suggested Civs are so brokenly strong. I tried to consider balance with my Hittite Civ suggestion (although that is in another thread).

Relax, relax, everyone gets a little bias/over the top when talking about proposed civs from their homeland. Plus I'm no civ guru just chucking something out there. In reflection that UB is rediculous. However i do think that a Maori Civ has some merit. Pacific Islanders seems so broad/generalised. There are so many individual countries/civs within that grouping.
With regards to trait combos and the tactical trait, i was thinking of the leaders personalities/strengths when i made up that trait. I guess you could replace them with seafaring/agarian anyways.