What civs are winnable in Emperor?

[AnotherPacifist]

I start as Babylon, send warrior east to kill India (after upgrading with the goody hut en route to city attack level 2), send settler west to found Lagash (on the hill west of Istabul). Build workers and workboats. Workers build nothing but roads and maybe a farm around Lagash. Around 1600BC send workers towards Greece's spawn area, and declare war. Hammurabi dies.
Lagash builds Colossus, Athens starts on Temple of Artemis but switch to Oracle as soon as Priesthood is researched. Oracle gets Aesthetics as free tech. Research Literature, Drama, Philosophy. Even before Parthenon is built, build settler to found Epidamnos, building walls, barracks and troops as defense against Rome. As soon as copper is online build lots of spearmen (I had 12 barbarian horse archers at once but they died with 5 spearmen fortified in a walled Lagash). The rest is history (defend against every civ that declares war on you (Carthage, Rome, Egypt, even Ethiopia). Declare war on Khmer when your trireme reaches its waters, it won't send anything after you when you head east to complete your circumnavigating goal.

 

[Depravo]

Well yeah, I think most later-occurring civs are probably winnable if you play like that.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well if somebody has an idea how to kill ALL the early old world civs to give Maya a chance to build the temple please post. (I'm going to start as Hammurabi and just build archers to kill Egypt and hopefully get to China and Greece in time)

That's another reason why "early" civs like China, Japan and (after 11 tries) Egypt are rather impossible because you can't switch to them.

 

[Wessel V1]

Greece can be won with "cheating"QUOTE]

That strategy is already known for 2 months , http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=176756&page=12 post 231.

Anyway, your strategy seems much better.

@ Depravo: you're right, my brother has done Mali around 14.. AD (viceroy) because he started with Carthage, conquered Egypt and gave everything to Mali. If he really tried to get as much as possible he would have got something around 40000 gold ( > 1000 gold per turn, 30 turns left or more)

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Greece can be won with "cheating"QUOTE]

That strategy is already known for 2 months , http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=176756&page=12 post 231.

Anyway, your strategy seems much better.

Yeah, I should have mentioned my obligation to that technique. But starting as India is too difficult (I tried it an Ham builds the Oracle before me every time) so I said, why not combine the Indian genocide with Babylon migration?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK, my Hammurabi domination/Maya UHV game doesn't work, because now Ham's archers can't get through jungle. I killed everybody (India, Egypt, Greece) except China and they were the ones that built that damn Temple of Kukulkan (most of my archers deserted on the way since I had no money left, the long way around the mountains takes forever). I tried to make the old world as chaotic as possible (Ham declared war on Persia and China before I switched) and still Maya's halfway through Code of Laws before China builds the temple)

 

[usi]

I haven't tried it for the Mayan emperor UHV, but here's what I did to make China weaker when I completed the Indian monarch UHV:

1) Send the warrior you start with to Manchuria and kill some barbarians/animals until it gets 5xps. Then give it Woodman 1 and 2 promotions.

2) Declear war on China, and send the warrior to the forest on the N NE of Beijing. Have it move around the forests counterclockwise and get to the SE E of Beijing (Wheat).

3) If no Chinese military unit approaches the warrior, destroy the farm.

4) Move the warrior to the forest on the S SW of the wheat tile.

5) Check if there is a farm or a worker on the wheat tile. If there is a farm or a worker there, and if there is no military unit next to it, destroy/capture the farm/worker.

6) Repeat #4 and #5 as much as you can.

7) If China sends a settler, block a good location by the warrior.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So I went back and refined my Old World disruptive strategy with Hammy. Destroyed India, Egypt and Greece, and captured Beijing. Declared war on Rome and Persia before I switched. (The only world wonders built in 30BC were Hanging Gardens (now owned by Hammy), Stonehenge (built in Nanking of all places) and Oracle by Persia).

So I start (unfortunately) with Tikal which was already built by the AI. Went straight for library and found Oaxaca on the stone (which maybe the wrong move, but in any case) and build library straight away. Sent scouts and warriors out for huts and got maybe 200 gold total. Workers build farms and cottages only.
Sailing=12 moves
Math=21 moves, became a little less than 17 after libraries
Calendar=10-12 moves with 4 scientists

By 600 AD you have 4-5 moves left to Calendar.

Good news is that nobody built the Temple so far! I even had the chance to build the Moai Statues, Temple of Artemis, the Great Lighthouse and Pyramids if I chose to. Of course Carthage and Babylon died, but Rome's still alive and a threat.

Founding Tenochtitlan instead of Oaxaca (God knows what trouble I'll get with the Aztecs later) doesn't do any good since the delay getting to Tenochtitlan is too much.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So I started out with Hammy again, destroyed Egypt and everybody else I can get my hands on. Sent some workers and archers to Ethiopian spawn land but found out I can't gift them anything since I didn't keep any cities. Plus I forgot I need to give them a great priest.
So restarted as Egypt, Siwa built Stonehenge, built Yebu and another city on the east coast (Abdju). Gifted almost everything to Ethiopia. But 1 great priest is only halfway to Theology and sure enough, Rome founds it 4 moves before I do. (Maybe I shouldn't have founded Per-Atum but I needed the copper for the axemen and spearmen).

So I hope for the best and aim for Divine Right (3500 beakers-134 moves!). Got another great priest which is only 1100 beakers. When Arabia showed up I gave them Per-Atum and recaptured it, so they disappeared for 2 moves, but then when they got Jerusalem from the flip, they founded Islam. Stinking impossible.

The only way I see it now is for somebody to give Ethiopia 2 great priests and the only civ that can do it from the start is probably India (founding Hinduism and Buddhism and churning out great priests), but how to get them to Ethiopia in time and in space?? (need to found a city on the coast, get galley with a settler and defender, sail to Ethiopia, come back and fetch the 2 priests--takes at least 1000 years).

Edit: never mind, the Indian experiment is a bust. Founded Buddhism and Hinduism, built Stonehenge and Oracle but either Rome or Greece founds Christianity, and Persia declares war even before I built my settler on the coast. BTW, Lahore is a much better spot for the Indian capital (lots of trees and closer to marble--6 pop in Emperor without any disease after the wheat is online).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Just as an experiment, I thought I would make Spain (usually Mansa's archenemy since she wouldn't open borders) give everything to Mali. Founded Madrid and Lisboa. Sent the third settler to the forest in north Africa and founded the future Mali capital (probably the best place since if I found a city in Timbuktu it'll just flip and I can't give it to Mansa). Gave close to 1000 gold to him in 980 and all techs and cities. Though I was doing well at 130 gold per turn when all of a sudden, with 3500 gold (!) in 1310 the UHV indicator turned gray!!!

Another thing which doesn't help is that when you switch you can't ask friendly civs for gold for some reason. I was 3rd in GNP in 1300.

Come on, Rhye, some would call the game flawed if it's not winnable in all levels.

 

[Tweakee]

I won't be trying any Emperor UHV that requires sabotaging thousands of years of history to make it possible. That seems really contrary to having fun or a challenge.

RFC is currently a lot of fun on Monarch level, but I don't really consider Emperor level a playable feature for many civs.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Did much better this time as Ethiopia. Judaism was probably founded by China or India and Rome, Carthage and Greece didn't have monotheism. Tried to maximize the gold near the end but no use...they still beat me to it.
Will probably have to go for writing instead of animal husbandry this time starting as Egypt so that Yebu has a pre-built library. And maybe Per-Atum can be founded a little later.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Things basically have to fall in place exactly, otherwise this won't be possible.

--Start as Egypt, found Siwa, build warrior to let pop grow, the worker when it hits pop 2
--Mysticism, Masonry, Pottery, Writing (the rest doesn't matter)
--Build both Stonehenge and Pyramids (you need both to generate enough GP points for great priest, and later the new Ethiopian cities need culture without Steles)
--As soon as you finish Pyramids build settler and send south to Yebu, and later send another settler to Per-Atum (this is actually important so that you can capture Siwa later)
--if Jerusalem doesn't found Judaism, might as well restart (means that one of the eastern civs is gunning for Theology)
--2 workers work hard on building cottages around Yebu after finishing 2 cottages in Siwa
--when your great priest spawns, do NOT leave him in the city (otherwise the AI will settle him in that city). Rather let him chill in the desert so that when he does move he cannot settle in the same move.
--Yebu should have enough culture to see Ethiopia when they spawn, make sure the move before you have all warriors evacuate Siwa and head towards Per-Atum.
--Yebu builds library!! (whip it if necessary but leave it at pop 2-3 so that it can grow back quickly)
--give Yebu first (which Ethiopia will make as their capital), then open borders, then gift Per-Atum. Move all units into Ethiopian territory and gift. Make sure your workers aren't busy doing something and can move into Ethiopian territory. Then declare war on Ethiopia (whip Siwa down to pop 1-2 first so that it doesn't revolt for long and all they can whip is a little warrior; Egypt will most likely become independent anyway) Do NOT give too many warriors to Ethiopia as they will upgrade most of them to axemen which drains your cash.
--Bulb great priest and after founding Aksum and Moqdisho and you should be at most 12-14 moves to founding Christianity!

If cheating was this hard in college I might as well study for the test.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Finished Ethiopia in third place behind Germany and Russia (thanks to the Internet with 1 gold costs for 10 techs). There's something seriously wrong with how stability is calculated. I was 2nd in GNP and 1st in imports/exports, and my economy is a stinking 1 star and going down. I thought at first it was because I didn't have custom houses (delayed getting economy until I got Constitution), but it didn't matter. I had banks, markets, lighthouses, the techs economy and corporation and civ free market...all to no avail. It must have something to do with my population (being 1st in pop, enough for me to be elected UN secretary twice!) to gold ratio but that is not clear at all.
Also, if Ethiopia was supposed to control most of Africa as part of the UHV (and yes, I did that since Mali was my vassal for 800 years), why is my expansion 1 star? That really needs to be fixed in the next update, if the stability "bug" has been fixed there's no way Ethiopia can win (I collapsed twice but nothing happened).

 

[Tweakee]

I could point out that this is a strong indicator that the way Stability is presented to the user is currently very poor, since you can't tell why anything is happening in even the vaguest sense or even if the code is working or bugged.

I could make that point, bur since apparently Stability s intended to be 'magic' and not knowable in any strategically useful way, I won't...

Oops, I just did!

 

[Panopticon]

Well, neither is diplomacy. This issue has effectively been settled in favour of the status quo.

 

[Tweakee]

Well, neither is diplomacy. This issue has effectively been settled in favour of the status quo.

I find Diplomacy to be presented very well. The mood modifiers are extremely helpful in explaining why the AI acts as it does. There are small things that could be improved, like how the AI knows when you bribe someone to declare war on him, so it'd be nice if we were told when the AI does the same. If you think the mod presents as much helpful info about Stability as the game does about Diplomacy, I'll just have to say that I strongly disagree.

I know AnotherPacifist has played RFC even more than I have (and I've played a lot ), and there are still situations where we don't have a clue what is going on with Stability. Since we've both won many games of RFC, I don't think it's because we suck. Rather, I'd say it's because the mod doesn't allow Stability to be known in even the most basic (useful) sense.

If AP did something wrong w/ regards to stability in his Ethiopia game, how is he supposed to learn and improve if the mod can't even give him the slightest idea what that mistake might have been? Civ is a strategy game, not a guessing game!

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I find Diplomacy to be presented very well. The mood modifiers are extremely helpful in explaining why the AI acts as it does. There are small things that could be improved, like how the AI knows when you bribe someone to declare war on him, so it'd be nice if we were told when the AI does the same.

I disagree with you when you have vassals, who make diplomacy very unpredictable. I was friendly with Greece, France, Britain, and Netherlands and all of a sudden in the most inconvenient moments, they declare war on me (or is it Mali?). You cannot control what your vassals do--I once declared war on China (the score leader for God's sake) because Mali did so. I think vassals should not be allowed to do anything without consulting their masters.

I know AnotherPacifist has played RFC even more than I have (and I've played a lot ), and there are still situations where we don't have a clue what is going on with Stability. Since we've both won many games of RFC, I don't think it's because we suck. Rather, I'd say it's because the mod doesn't allow Stability to be known in even the most basic (useful) sense.

If AP did something wrong w/ regards to stability in his Ethiopia game, how is he supposed to learn and improve if the mod can't even give him the slightest idea what that mistake might have been? Civ is a strategy game, not a guessing game!

Well thank you very much. I didn't learn anything from having played Monarch Ethiopia, because I was unstable and collapsing too.
I think there's something wrong with colonizing the whole of Africa because I had the same instability with expansion and economy when I did so as Arabia to grow my Islamic population--maybe there's not enough room for cottages and so it's a good place for exotic stuff like gems and elephants but you cannot base a civ entirely in it. The whole Africa south of Ethiopia is not the homeland of any civ in RFC, so any civ that takes up too much of Africa will be unstable in the expansion category. Maybe Africa and Australia should be neutral to expansion if you do want to build lots of cities there (hint hint Rhye, are you even reading this?).
Maybe we do need a Zulu civ to make Africa their homeland.

 

[Tweakee]

Isn't the vassals declaring war on their own thing an RFC change? I don't recall them doing that in vanilla Civ. And yes, that's very annoying. I'd at least like the option to kick them as my vassal if they to pull something like that.

It's been too long since I did the Ethiopia UHV that I can't recall if I had stability problems, but there have been a few UHVs where I had the same issue of instability for no obvious reason (and the mod will never tell you about less obvious ones). Usually my playstyle leads to stability, but once in a while I'm Stable/Unstable when it seems to me I should be the opposite, and it's impossible to deduce why. If the mod gave the player better stability feedback, we'd at least be able to have a useful discussion about why your Ethiopia nearly collapsed.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Gave up several times on starting Persia without cheating (once I conquered Babylonia but India already had several spearmen in 3 cities). So instead of having my Hammurabi conquests go to waste, I decided to hand my empire over to Cyrus. Here's what happened:
1. Hammy builds Ashur (to flip Shush quicker) and beelines for archery.
2. Initial warrior goes to India after the goody hut for xp. Capture Delhi but don't raze it, instead build up infrastructure (roads/farms). Delhi has Hinduism but no Buddhism sometimes when you get there--it happened to me.
3. Build another warrior to go pick up money from huts west (this is crucial).
4. While archery is researched build barracks in Ashur. Shush builds worker to farm wheat.
5. Archers go to Egypt and capture Niwt-Rst (or whatever city is the capital).
6. Archers go to Greece and capture Athens. Greece founded Buddhism thankfully (otherwise I'll be one religion short). Don't build any more military.
7. Research mysticism, masonry, pottery. Workers build cottages around Ashur and Niwt-Rst.
8. Build Stonehenge in Niwt-Rst.
9. One turn before Cyrus appears, move all units in Ashur into Shush. Even in emperor mode, Cyrus is friendly so they will open borders without any gifts. The first city to give them should be Shush (it's the center of your empire and already connected to most of your other cities). I tried giving Athens first (thinking that I'll build Oracle) but I lost too much money without all those trade routes. Give all units to Cyrus. DON'T declare war on Cyrus (otherwise you'll lose next turn before you can switch)--I know, losing those free troops hurts, but your economy cannot support too many troops, so it's a blessing in disguise.
10. Switch to Cyrus next turn and capture Ashur. One settler to found Gwadar on the coast, and another to Artacoana in the north.
11. Civics should be hereditary rule and NOT slavery but serfdom. You need all those workers to build infrastructure ASAP.
12. Capture Jerusalem and Sur.
13. Research Meditation (for missionaries), Priesthood (for temples), Aesthetics (3 wonders) and maybe get Math from a great scientist. Most of the time your research will be close to 0-10% but you should get there in time. I decided not to go for construction because it only gives you Great Wall, where I needed more wonders for my expensive research.
14. Delhi builds Pyramids and Parthenon (make sure to build a temple first for hiring priests)
15. Athens builds Great Lighthouse. Because it's not connected to your capital, even if you have the marble quarried, you can't access it, so I got beat by China to the Oracle by 3 moves. If I had built more roads to Jerusalem I could have gotten the marble in time.
16. Shush starts with Temple of Artemis (use all tiles including the copper, marble and stone) and Shwedagon Paya later.
17. Gwadar builds workboats and harbor first, then Moai Statues as soon as possible. Statue of Zeus (from 4 free monuments from Pyramids) is built in 7 moves.
18. For your great priests, spawn them in Shush and Delhi. Spread your religions around so you can build temples. The one in Shush should be done first and sent to Athens. The other one will be born right near the end in Delhi with the help of the Parthenon (I had to reload several times to avoid a great engineer spawning due to Pyramids).
19. Ethiopia will vassalize which helps you not to have to build more cities in India. I tried to keep Samarkand several times but it was razed after I lost it twice to barbs. I finally got enough troops to rebuild Samarkand but it wasn't really necessary.
20. Note the conspicuous absence of Arabia in my cities. I did my usual trick with them--gave them Gordium (which I recaptured the same move) so all their initial units disappear. Then Sur and Jerusalem asks to flip to which I agree, having already loaded two galleys with troops and sailed away the move before, so I can recapture them the same move. Somehow San'a must have not been razed by the barbs because Arabia was still alive. But with the Temple of Zeus and 10 troops converging to the Levant Arabia sued for peace, and I even got Currency from them (I was 1 move from finishing it)!
21. Don't forget to build lots of axemen and spearmen in Egypt (to counter impi and camel archers), several spearmen in India (for the barb war elephants) and garrison spearmen in Samarkand (or fortify them in the forest north of Artacoana).

Cheating is hard.