[NFP] What Civs could be adjusted?

[acluewithout]

snip

It’s all pretty subjective I guess.

For me, I just can’t get excited about Tundra Farms. And I really don’t see what Tundra Farms have to do with Canada. So, personally, I’d like to just get rid of that feature.

I don’t like the no surprise war. I don’t mind that Canada can’t declare SW, but I think it’s a bit gimmicky that others can’t SW them, and it makes them more boring to play at higher difficulties. But some people do seem to like the option, so maybe overall it’s a good enough ability.

I don’t mind the Mountie - Canada basically had to have it as a UU - but I think Canada need a second UU so it doesn’t feel so meme. I don’t really know enough about Canadian history to know what a second UU should be. I’d also thought of maybe the Coureur Du Bois, but thought it could maybe be a Recon unit that gives some sort of trade bonus.

I know what you mean about the Hokey Rink. FXS have introduced this idea of quasi-districts being improvements you can only build one of per City. So, you can sort of think of it as a Unique District of sorts...

I actually like the build of the other Colonial Civs. Australia and Brazil are super fun to play, and have properly unique mechanics. I also love how Curtin is sort of the new Ghandi and a secret warmonger. Cheeky bastard.

America is ... well, it’s fine. It’s totally fine. If it had been up to me, I probably would have built America to be more straightforward, and it would have been really boring as a result. Natural Parks and Broadcast Towers don’t really float my boat, but I do get FXS were trying for a more interesting angle focusing on cultural influence. Maybe America should get a bonus for Rock Bands?

Anyway. I generally like the build of Colonial Civs. But I still mod out all of the Colonial Civs just cause I don’t like them turning up so early in the game. Maybe I’ll play some later era starts and put them back in again.

Everyone seems to have interpreted the comment about tweaking civs as buffing weaker civs - but toning down civs like Korea or Nubia would also be a case of making adjustments, so suggestions about how best to do that might warrant more attention than they're getting.

There aren’t any Civs I’d want to nerf. Yup, a few are a bit strong. But I actually like having a few Super Civs in the game. Uneven power levels are really only an issue for MP, and they can always just have mods that rebalance things for MP.

 

[Sostratus]

And I really don’t see what Tundra Farms have to do with Canada. So, personally, I’d like to just get rid of that feature.

You see, canada is cold, and there are people there. Ergo, they must have tundra farms! It's not a bad gameplay mechanic - trying to get players to settle and improve otherwise bad terrain like how we have civs for the desert, mountains, and small island terrain.

It's funny - LBW historically was basically an attempt to "Homestead Act" what is now Alberta and Saskatchewan. The reason I find this funny is because this area is actually the northern edge of the Great Plains, and is the only really good agricultural land in Canada. It's also why if you walk around Minneapolis you would think you were in Calgary, and vice versa.

Spoiler :

Everything else in Canada is northern forest/ what the game considers Tundra.

Spoiler Biomes of Canada :

TLDR:
Last Best West ability refers to tundra farms, when the real LBW settled farmers into the only part of Canada that isn't tundra!

 

[bengalryan9]

America is ... well, it’s fine. It’s totally fine. If it had been up to me, I probably would have built America to be more straightforward, and it would have been really boring as a result. Natural Parks and Broadcast Towers don’t really float my boat, but I do get FXS were trying for a more interesting angle focusing on cultural influence. Maybe America should get a bonus for Rock Bands?

I would give film studios an extra slot for a great writing. If you put both a piece of writing and a piece of music in, you get a "film", automatically theming the building and doubling the tourism produced by it. They should probably come earlier too, though I suppose their best "fit" is with Radio.

 

[acluewithout]

Last Best West ability refers to tundra farms, when the real LBW settled farmers into the only part of Canada that isn't tundra!

That’s hilarious.

In fairness to FXS, they obviously were trying to come up with something different particularly as we already have one Tundra Civ with Russia. I guess building Farms where you couldn’t build Farms before is an okay idea. Probably doesn’t help though that Farms are a bit weak generally.

At least the Leader animation for Canada is really good. Overall, I’m glad they got added, even if the execution is a little wonky.

 

[AsH2]

Actually Tundra in Civ is Taiga IRL, while Snow in Civ is Tundra IRL.
If not convinced, ask @Boris Gudenuf

 

[Leucarum]

In fairness to FXS, they obviously were trying to come up with something different particularly as we already have one Tundra Civ with Russia. I guess building Farms where you couldn’t build Farms before is an okay idea. Probably doesn’t help though that Farms are a bit weak generally.

Agreed. If they want to double down on tundra farms they really need to deal with the fact that it's a weak improvement in any case which only marginally improves a suboptimal terrain.

 

[Sostratus]

Agreed. If they want to double down on tundra farms they really need to deal with the fact that it's a weak improvement in any case which only marginally improves a suboptimal terrain.

Well, sure, it might not sound great, but you simply invest the effort, you can have tiles that give you 2 food!
It’s kind of a pro gamer move, wouldn’t expect just anyone to see the potential...

That’s why I think they should get a +1 food on all tundra. Consider that +1 production for mines, lumbermills, and +1 food from camps is at best equivalent to Russia’s +1 production on all tundra, and they also get +1 faith (while Canada gets resource extraction.)

Now if Canada could build lumbermills on tundra right away, or something, that might be a different story.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Agreed. If they want to double down on tundra farms they really need to deal with the fact that it's a weak improvement in any case which only marginally improves a suboptimal terrain.

The reason why farms are weak is due to flat yields from buildings, if population was more important for the economy, especially science and Culture, farms would become a much stronger improvement due to the massive amount of food it can potentially produce. For Canada the issue is they have no reason to select thundra above other terrain type except for extra resource extraction and a late game UI, so being able to build farms on thundra which is still worse than plain and grassland with farms is Obviously not a good idea.

 

[Loerwyn]

To hop on the ‘religion weak’ bandwagon, Poland is definitely in need of a rework. There’s a lot of things going for them (I stand by the sukiennice being a great UB), but a lot of other abilities just don’t synergize well together. Extra adjacency bonuses for the Holy Sites is just so bad, it’s never impactful in any serious way.

But the worst part of Poland, imo, is the focus on relics. If it wasn’t for Mont St Michel, this would be a totally worthless bonus. A Poland player is automatically forced into going towards a religious victory which is fine, but they find themselves constantly chasing gimmicks which do very little. Either relics as a whole are reworked, or Poland should get some intrinsic faith generation bonuses that doesn’t tie them down to the Holy Sites, like Indonesia. Ironic to compare Poland to Indonesia, because Indonesia also gets (minor) adjacency bonuses from coast, and this applies to three districts.

I 'main' Poland and I don't think I ever got a Religious victory with them. I'm also not sure I entirely agree with you, but in a way I do. You are right in that as Poland to get the most out of their unique ability, you have to focus on religion and get Mont St. Michel as soon as possible. Relics are near-impossible to come by otherwise, with the RNG of Apostle promotions often not giving you Martyr as an option. And they're not particularly common in huts. If there was a way to create relics - I've seen in other topics people suggest things like Great Theologians as a thing - I think it would allow Poland to be a less rigid civ.

But my counter is their focus on faith works brilliantly with some buildings and dedications, because if you're generating a lot of faith then you can use it to build your armies and increase your domestic abilities (e.g. by buying traders, settlers, etc.) whilst using your high gold output for other things, such as buying buildings or other units.

 

[Pfeffersack]

You are right in that as Poland to get the most out of their unique ability, you have to focus on religion and get Mont St. Michel as soon as possible.

If possible, suzeraining Yerevan is additionally helpful or an alternative, if MStM is missed.

 

[earlofbrigand]

I'd rather more effort be spent on giving unique play styles to avoid 'buff inflation'. We've seen it with the Maya and I think this is the general direction of travel.

What we want is for all civs to be equal, with their strengths and weaknesses emerging within different spawns. Norway should 'win' as many games as Germany or Colombia. Therefore the answer is to tweak bonuses and tinker with mechanics and map generation to balance things out.

 

[bengalryan9]

What we want is for all civs to be equal, with their strengths and weaknesses emerging within different spawns. Norway should 'win' as many games as Germany or Colombia. Therefore the answer is to tweak bonuses and tinker with mechanics and map generation to balance things out.

Do we, though? I kind of like the fact that there are different power levels seen from civ to civ. It's nice to know that when playing with a friend for the first time or when first moving up a difficulty level there are certain civs that are slightly stronger we can use to help us acclimate. I like that there are civs that are a bit more difficult to play that I can use when I want to challenge myself. I don't think this is a game that demands strict competitive balance at all times as long as you don't have one civ that is multiple tiers above or below everyone else. I guess this is personal preference.

It's not like all civs are equal powers in real life and throughout history, either.

 

[altayrneto]

It’s all pretty subjective I guess.

For me, I just can’t get excited about Tundra Farms. And I really don’t see what Tundra Farms have to do with Canada. So, personally, I’d like to just get rid of that

Something simmilar happens with Brazil adjacency bonus from rainforests. Historically, it don’t make sense and does not relates with Brazilian people, as the one who lives near rainforest lives as good as anyone else in the world would. But, (aside this being something stereotipical) Brazil starting position makes it start near rainforests, and so this bonus is good to diminish the starting disadvantage.
But, if I may point something I would like to change, is adding to Pedro’s ability “receiving x% of great people points when a great people is earned by any other civ” and “increases loyalty pressure on cities he settled”. Both changes would make him being more historically acurate, and would back a change of his personal agenda, making him like civs how earned many Great People, just like in real life.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Is there any reason why the Maori need to start with Shipbuilding? I can understand Sailing but starting with the ability to construct Quadriremes once you settle your city, a Classical era technology, seems funny to me.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Is there any reason why the Maori need to start with Shipbuilding? I can understand Sailing but starting with the ability to construct Quadriremes once you settle your city, a Classical era technology, seems funny to me.

You need shipbuilding to transport units oversea.

 

[earlofbrigand]

It's not like all civs are equal powers in real life and throughout history, either.

True, but if that was the case the English need a MASSIVE buff considering the size and scope of the British Empire. The Aztec, Mali, Zulu and a host of others will need nerfing. A few hundred British redcoats were capable of taking over and dismantling some of these empires. Colombia would be a gnat the USA could swat with a couple of gunboats or later on, missiles.

So instead, I'd rather all the civs be equal, but have distinct advantages in certain spawns and maps. It would be nice to think there were scenarios where Georgia are strong and Colombia weak. Or spawns that see Egypt thrive and the Japanese struggle.

 

[bengalryan9]

True, but if that was the case the English need a MASSIVE buff considering the size and scope of the British Empire. The Aztec, Mali, Zulu and a host of others will need nerfing. A few hundred British redcoats were capable of taking over and dismantling some of these empires. Colombia would be a gnat the USA could swat with a couple of gunboats or later on, missiles.

So instead, I'd rather all the civs be equal, but have distinct advantages in certain spawns and maps. It would be nice to think there were scenarios where Georgia are strong and Colombia weak. Or spawns that see Egypt thrive and the Japanese struggle.

I'm not saying that I think every civ needs to be an accurate representation of their historic power level - that's probably way too large of an undertaking and would probably lead to a lot of arguments/hurt feelings. All I'm saying is that I can live without perfect balance in game.

To some extent, your second paragraph is true. There are certainly some civs (England, Norway, Maori) who have huge advantages on water maps. Mali would have a leg up on desert maps, while Russia and Canada have advantage on tundra maps. Korea and Greece would be awful on maps that are completely flat since their best features literally require hills. Of course, many civs play relatively the same no matter what the map looks like, but there is some variety.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

There are science victory strategies that use faith and religion as a part to make them quicker.

 

[UWHabs]

Well, sure, it might not sound great, but you simply invest the effort, you can have tiles that give you 2 food!
It’s kind of a pro gamer move, wouldn’t expect just anyone to see the potential...

That’s why I think they should get a +1 food on all tundra. Consider that +1 production for mines, lumbermills, and +1 food from camps is at best equivalent to Russia’s +1 production on all tundra, and they also get +1 faith (while Canada gets resource extraction.)

Now if Canada could build lumbermills on tundra right away, or something, that might be a different story.

Yeah, I understand why they have it - in some cases, it can help them settle something that others wouldn't. But as mentioned, investing effort with the only reward being to get a tile that's as bad as a base tile really means nothing. At least when they added the extra yields on tundra improvements, that gave them something, but I still would like to see at least a small bonus otherwise. I've advocated a couple times to give them like +1 culture on any tundra or snow tile improvement, and I think that would fit. Sure, a 2f1c tundra farm is still a little bit of a meh tile, but at least it kind of gives you something, and suddenly you have at least a little bit of an interesting choice in how to build out your cities.

 

[Chefofrats]

My problem with Canada is that they are just not that fun to play. The Surprise War thing, while sometimes useful, does not make playing as Canada exciting - on the contraty, it makes the beginning of the game more boring than usual. The tundra thing makes tundra better than for all other civs except Russia, but it still is tundra, it still is terrible, and buying tiles cheaply doesn't feel exciting either. The Mountie and Hockey Rink come too late - playing as Canada I will get bored well before I can use either.

Perhaps Canada is not as terrible a civ as I subjectively feel they are, but why would anyone chose to play a game as them rather than some more exciting civ?