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[NFP] What Civs could be adjusted?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Hogimus, Jun 3, 2020.

  1. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    Khmer definitely. I think they should get the baray as an aqueduct UD and a different UA. Maybe something with specialists (i.e. all specialist provide +1 food and +1 faith in addition to their usual yields).

    I also agree the Chateau needs a boost. And Georgia could use a little more love despite the buffs they've gotten.

    It continues to bother me that Phoenicia is neither very sciency or trade oriented. I'd say drop the 'free Writing' eureka and add something like 'free eureka every time they create a new trading post' or something.

    Spain's problem is more the continent mechanic more than anything. The mission is great on a different continent, as are the trading bonuses. If they happen to start near a 'continental divide', great. But otherwise there's not a much 'colonization' in civ 6.

    I think boosting some of the % numbers civs get could help as well. Turn Egypt's 15% to 25% for building near a river. Also boost France's wonder production %, Maya's near the capital %,
     
  2. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Welp, most of those people are living in 2018 which makes explains them missing the memo. Canada's already had a balance pass and the notion that that's mediocre-at-best is outdated. They're pretty good now.

    Khmer would be the most deserving. There's just nothing distinct or compelling about them. Build aqueducts to get some minor yield boosts, found a religion so you can try achieve a culture victory by marching missionaries out on relic-generating suicide missions. These must like Eric Lang board games. The domrey takes too much production to be worth bothering with.

    That is, it would be if it wasn't for Maya now. Keep your civ small and compact just to get +10% yields? Build a campus that surrenders tried and true bonuses for even more conditional ones? Props for the ranged unit, there's nothing too interesting to do with this civ.

    Yeah, I posted an idea for them where the baray was a UD version of the aqueduct that provided fresh water in a radius effect. The most remarkable thing about the Khmer was their ability to supply a seven-figure population in an area of marshy mush. Very impressive engineering civ that gets no production boost. It makes me sad.
     
  3. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    But of course, dealing with low loyalty spots is not that hard. It's the fact that you cannot do what colonial powers actually did - take a small pocket from an existing empire and then use that to subjugate them. Because the city will flip in 3 turns. I don't mind loyalty, i like the system, but it really pushes contiguous empires.

    The problem I suppose with me reaching for an RTS example is that civ6 battle is usually quite condensed by terrain, and unlike eg starcraft you cannot usually leverage superior numbers to actually get the greater attacking surface area. There's hill, mountains, water, rivers, and cities in the way. This often means the combat width is fairly similar for both sides until one gets depleted.
    If you have a 100HP/10ATK unit facing off against an endless stream of identical units, he would end up dishing out 100 dmg before dying (10 damage 10 times, since he takes 10 damage himself each tick.)
    If you send a 150HP/15ATK corps against a stream of the single units, he will deal 225 damage during his life (15 damage 15 times, since he's taking 10 damage every tick.)

    With the limits on combat width presented by realistic civ6 fights it skews much closer to the corps than in a pure RTS where it's not an issue. Either way, once you have the military academy discount they are definitely worth making, and regardless they make sense if a unit has a few promotions.
     
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  4. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    The issue with Korea is that their Seowons are so good that everything else has to be tempered otherwise the civ becomes OP. Korea is very good exactly as they are... if you make their leader ability any better than what it already is, they become way too strong IMO.

    This is the main reason I think Korea won't be getting a second leader as part of the Frontier Pass.

    Truthfully I think the biggest problem most people have with Canada is that they just don't like that Canada is in the game. That's not going to change no matter what Firaxis does to them.
     
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  5. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    This is a bit of a problem.

    You can mitigate it a bit by expanding in a Golden Age and settling Cities using Hic Sunt Dracones. But capturing just one small city on Foreign Continents and holding them late game is impossible.
     
  6. snakeboy

    snakeboy Chieftain

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    Excellent thinking in this post, and I really hope when they say 'adjustments' they go a layer deeper than just a tweak here and there. And yes, religion springs to mind.

    I would add though that the problem is early game religion. Coupled with the Grandmaster's chapel Religion/faith is insanely good - a bit OP in my opinion.

    But early game, chosing that Holy Site over a Campus is really though unless you have great adjacencies for both and can afford it. But then there is the prophet rush as well. So it makes sense to really help religious civs like Spain get going, as it takes so much time for religion to take off...

    Edit: a little add on... perhaps streamline the belief-mechanic more. It is such a hassle: buy expensive apostle, wait a turn, evangelize belief, then wait before you have the faith and buy again, wait a turn, evangelize belief... Even just scrapping the waiting would help with the flow. You buy, you create the belief/promote/spread.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
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  7. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    I live only to serve CFC
    They showed with the changes to missions and chateaux in 2019 that they are willing to at least add a few new rows in some tables and slap on a modifier here and there. Hopefully they can bring some bolder ideas. They've had a year to think about it.
    If they just wanted to change numerical values, the intern can do that. Even if they wanted to tweak the price of every single combat unit or something, it would take all of a few minutes of looking at a spreadsheet and copy/pasting SQL/xml statements.
     
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  8. tiamats4esgares

    tiamats4esgares Warlord

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    I'd like to see the Mongols more similar to their Civ V version.
     
  9. Ticio

    Ticio Prince

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    I find some of you ideas for Spain very very interestng. The changes for the missions are perfect!

    As I stated in other threads, I personally see the problems with Spain on 2 levels.

    1) Their continental Bonuses are essential for them. No new continent = Vanilla civ.

    For example, England is an industrial and economic Civ. You have very fun bonuses pointed to this direction. They are also a colonial CIV, so they have bonuses that HELP them (more troops and more traders). They cannot reach new continents? they lost these extra stuff, but they will do well.

    Spain NEEDS to get to other continents to get their principal bonuses. Is not extra stuff, is necessary stuff to win. That means that they will not have them until they reach another continent, but they will have a very hard time reaching them in time because the other civs have already there bonuses.

    So, weak because not in new continent > not in new continent because they are weak > remain weak beacuse not in new contient... Is a circle hard to brake.

    2) Their bonuses force them to be strong in every direction, but they do not have the tools to do it.

    - Need faith for religion and to merge apostles with conquistadors (Misionaries get always killed when invading foreign land)
    - Need commercial Hubs/ports to have traders for intrcontinental yields
    - Need science to stay militarly capable
    - Need a lot of culture to reach Missions/armadas/Theocracy, all of them in different pathways...

    Going for one of the above, ends up sacrificing one of the others. Meaning they lose one, or more, of their bonuses.


    IMPROVEMENTS:

    In my opinion they could choose one path out of 2 to improve Spain:

    1) Make them have an easier acces to their bonus on other continents and in general, or just give them bonuses from the start to religion and other stuff.

    I find this one a little boring, but just because it would make them very similar to other Civs in the game and I really love civs with different playstyles.

    2) Let them as they are but with more rewards for the accomplishement on going to new continents.

    Number 2 is my personal favorite! You let them struggle at the start, and make going to a new continent a difficult task, but if they succeed you give them a good compensation!
    Pretty much as I see the history of colonial Spain in real life. Hard and costly endeavour (as they were the first and basicly they did it as a medieval civ) but the rewards were insane. High risk/High profit.

    For this to happend I think the principal change would need to be on "Treasure Fleet (TF)" bonus.

    Actual problem with TF

    Right now I think it is just too weak. As I post in another thread, at the end Germany has a better "Treasure fleet" than Spain herself...

    Germany (ALL cities): Adjacency bonus CH/IZ more yields from trade > More traders > 1 more district > More yields when trading AND better original cities during the process.

    Spain (ONLY other continents): If you manage to go very early to new continents = +1 food/prod. > faster growth and construction > become less and lesss noticeable as everything become more expensive > more difficult to get new cities as game advance (something already difficult at the start for the lack of bonuses)

    I do not know the numbers exactly, but what is better?

    50% on a district all the time
    1+ food/production all the time? (imagning you have it from the start)

    I imagine that the 50%, at the start of the game may be not as good, as 50% of 10 production is 5. But when you have to pay 1000, 50% = 500 production

    The +1 production at the start may be better, beacuse you will fullfil the production before, but as the game progres the bonus gets weaker and weaker as a +1 to reach 1000 is not so much.

    Like with policy cards, the first that gives you +1 production in all cities IS HUGE, but after sometime you need the +X% policies to win, as the other turn obsolete pretty early.


    Possible improvements.

    I think, again, 2 ways are possible.

    1) To give "TF" something like the colonial policy cards so, when trading with an intercontinental city the bonus are % based.

    Something like X% on building disctricts and Wonders if you are trading with a different continent.
    OR a X% on production, science, faith, gold and growth. A 5% or something to not to make it OP.
    And no giving them extra things for international trade or just a 15% gold in this city, but you lose all the others.

    It would also represent the fact that they used forced labor (production %), Build a lot of Universities on their colonies (science %), churches (faith %), extracted gold and silver (gold%), and assimilated the indigenous population (Growth%).


    OR


    2) Make "TF" bonuses like the "alliances" cards policies, but for internal trade.

    To mantain the +1 food/production but make it stronger, so it takes more time getting too weak.

    Something like: +1 food/production for BOTH cities if they are trading through diferent continents.

    And, maybe, add more yields if these trade routes goes through more continents.
    Like you have City A, B and C, all of them on different continents.

    trade routes:

    A > B = +1 yields
    B > C = +1 yields

    A > B > C = +2 Yields

    A > B > C > D (in a fourth continent) = +3 yields for A

    Make sacking spanish traders 50% rewarding for other civs or so, so the enemies would prioritize them and if succed they will cripled Spain (then, early armadas bonus would be very appealing)

    That would help making TF not lose efficiency as the game progresses, becasue as the game advance the reach of your trades routes would get better and you will unlock this "intercontinental trade" later in the game and also with careful positioning of the cities (not and easy thing anyways).

    That would also replicate something historical like the "manila Galleon"; trading from Asia > America > Europe > Africa AND viceversa = super Hight profits
    but also the problem with piracy preventing them to become too powerfull.

    So like in real life = Spanish getting too strong? > attack trade lines > you higly weaken them + you become rich > you get stronger and stronger at spanish expenses!


    Conclusion:

    The idea behind the changes would be, "okay, you are getting a hard time reaching other continents,but if you manage to do so, you will have a very good compensation. The more you invest in these cities, the more profit you get, so take care of them and the traders that allow it."

    Apart of that, your idea about missions and theocracy is imperative.

    And I really like the faith project too! quite unique and fitting Spain (of course the changes should have a malus, to avoid them being super strong).

    What do you think about these changes for Treasure fleet? I really think that any of them could give Spain a very unique way to play. Very rewarding if you manage to survive and success against the odds.

    In addition, I think they are easy changes to apply, not changing at all the spirit of the civ nor the original concept/idea behind Spain's bonuses.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
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  10. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    I think the problem is that people are playing on Tundra from the get go.

    It seems the idea with Canada is to allow the player to play on the edges of Tundra early on when necenessary to grab resources. Expand on to good terrain at first and once good land becomes scarce you can expand into the Tundra and later Snow where you'll make the land more resourceful than any other Civ.

    I think a lot of players are going full Tundra too early and getting poor results.
     
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  11. Leucarum

    Leucarum Emperor

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    Canada: I think they could still do with a small early game boost to tundra yields. Maybe bonus food in their capital for tundra tiles. They have a similar problem to the Maya in that RNG can leave them in a really disadvantaged position much more easily than most civs. Their loop of churning out national parks is also a bit too slow especially now that Rock bands define the culture victory game. Maybe push Mounties a little earlier in the civic tree.

    Maya: It would be nice to reduce some of the RNG by doing something similar to how the Maori always get a patch of water on any map. Probably a pain to implement but it would be nice if they'd be guaranteed a start location with say 75% minimum amount of land (not water) within 6 tiles of their city?

    Khmer: My vote for weakest overall civ but I don't know if I would change them. They have a very niche strategy, but it is a fast way to score a culture victory and I think leaving it in would be nice for the players who enjoy that. Not for me but hey...

    Mapuche: Their abilities just don't synergize. It feels like they were designed around their loyalty effect but it turned out not to be very useful and now instead their main selling point is the combat bonus vs golden ages. I have no idea what I'd do though beyond an england-style rework...
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
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  12. tedhebert

    tedhebert Emperor

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    Yeah, personnally, I just can't understand this. Canada is a G7 country, has been founded for over 150 years, and has a distinct personality. If you can't stand having them in the game, then i REALLY fail to see how they are worse than Australia, Gran Columbia, Mapuche or many other civs in the game.
     
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  13. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    I don't mind Canada, but if you don't understand why some people feel that way, try to imagine having Brazil, Argentina and Mexico all in the game by the second expansion.
     
  14. King of Prussia

    King of Prussia Warlord

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    Personally, i find Civs based around having a religion not to be as fun as other civs. When the stars align, they are good and can be fun. If they don't, they are pretty generic.If you are a civ that requires your own religion, and you dont get one, you are screwed.

    I don't enjoy the mad rush to get a prophet. After the mad rush, you don't do much with religion for a long time due to the unit costs. It is only after an era or 2 of building lots of Holy sites and getting high faith generation that you can start doing things. I generally just wait until theology.

    and outside of stopping someone from getting a religious victory, you dont need to care about it. There should be more ways/reasons for people that do not have their own religion to care. Having a way for non founding civs to interact with and help mold their adopted religion could be pretty neat if done right. Sadly some of this stuff may not be touched until Civ 7 if at all. So hopefully they can find ways to help out some of the weaker faith based Civs.
     
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  15. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    People have been complaining about Religion since time immemorial. Firaxis says they are listening and that we'll be pleasantly surprised with the updates. Very well, my expectations are high and I'm confident they've got something up their sleeves.

    I think there's a pretty decent chance they'll integrate JFD's idea of Great Theologians into the game, just because JFD's feels like the natural approach to take. It would definitely spice up the Religious game.
     
  16. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    Personally, I wouldn't care if they put elves in the game as long as they played different than everyone else. For me it's a game first, history simulator second, but I understand a lot of people have different viewpoints on that and that's totally cool. I would hope we could at least view them impartially now that they're in the game, though, because they're not going anywhere.
     
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  17. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I agree with everything else, but this is definitely wrong. In fact, Holy Site spam for Campus discount into Monumentality is one of the single strongest strategies for SV and CV currently. It's insanely good value, because the Holy Site buildings are very cheap. If you get Choral Music (easy before the patch) it becomes borderline broken. Even with feed the world it's very strong. And the thing is, you don't even need a religion. It doesn't matter at all, only the yields do. I will often play a heavy faith game without any intention of founding a religion. Even if I could, the benefits are marginal, so why bother really? The strongest thing about founding religion is, ironically, the era score and the inspiration..

    Holy Sites are not the problem, the follower and founder beliefs are, and the entire religion system is kinda flawed tbh.
     
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  18. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Prince

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    Big agree about Khmer, France, and Georgia. I also agree that Spain's design is fundamentally flawed because of colonization not really being a thing. I'd also extend that to England, but fortunately England have more to make up for it. Not so with Spain.

    In my opinion, Phoenicia is fine. They're a generalist Civ with a very specific niche, which is that they settler spam better than anyone else in the game. That to me gives them more than enough of a niche, and they can be pretty powerful. Egypt is also actually pretty powerful, but I wouldn't mind an uptick for their numbers either.

    I'd also add the Mapuche to this list. In my opinion, they're the worst Civ in the game, barely edging out the Khmer. The Chemamull is actually pretty strong, but everything else feels really inconsequential. And Swift Hawk is the only ability in the game that can actually be a hinderance.
     
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  19. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    I would consider monumentality to be an edge case. Everything is better with monumentality, but as soon as you step outside it, suddenly the value of faith drops massively. Yes, we all know that the best strategies are built around it, but I don't know if the design of the game is such that players are supposed to plan particular golden/dark ages ahead of time.

    And yes, the religion system, especially beliefs, usually end up making religion perpendicular to everything else. I don't care if you have missionary zeal and Mosques, because I'm not playing religious. If all religions had a belief as impactful as choral music, suddenly, holy cow do I care what foreign faith I have. It should not live in its own bubble so much - even if that means religion morphs into essentially a 'booster' like in civ5. I'm not even sure holy sites should be the singular expression of religion. Why can't the religious building belief go into the city center? Then pick some other thing for t3 that morphs holy sites into a district that people trying to win religiously use.

    I think they could really spice up egypt with all the new systems we have now. I would actually really like the sphinx to either become something that must be next to a wonder (and in exchange, is much more powerful); OR (what I would prefer) make the sphinx a unique WONDER that only egypt can make, conditioned that it must sit next to another wonder. To compensate, give them a UB "Obelisk" that's just a slightly jazzier monument.
    I also think the nile aspect of the civ and flooding should be a central feature of cleo's UA rather than the trade thing. Like + a yield to any improved tile that has flooded at least once, or something, and immune to flood damage.
    I rarely play egypt even though they have a great UU and a sick floodplains bias. I just want "PHARAOH STRONK," is that really too much to ask for?
     
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  20. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    Well without monumentality the value of faith is pretty much zero unless you have the correct wonders or CS. But then again you can get 2 or 3 monumentalities in most games so that's kind of moot I think. I guess it allows only for very narrow strategies, but even with monumentality there are a lot of different ways to use it.
     

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