What do you think about Arabian "Last Prophet" ability?

[Krajzen]

I am wondering what are arguments support it (it's useful!) and stand against it (it's useless!) as I am not sure what to think about it, as it is very unique.

We're talking about "Arabia will automatically receive the last available Great Prophet if it has not already founded a religion".

On one hand it seems to be useless if you are going to grab religion as fast as possible, or have perfect (not yet taken) beliefs.

On another hand, it allows you to focus another things early game, without wasting resources for holy district or stonehenge, and still always get the religion. It may be especially valuable on higher difficulty levels (in civ5 founding religion starts being hard on Immortal and becomes very hard at Deity), overcrowded maps (14-22 players when only 7 religions may be founded per game) or small maps (with 2-5 players - you get religion as soon as the first or second player gets one, as there are just 2 or 3 per game allowed).

So, what do you think about it?

 

[Red Pearl]

I depends on how highly the AI values the good beliefs.

 

[pholtz]

I'll probably ignore the ability when playing at lower difficulty levels, but as I reach my difficulty limit, it will become more and more important, allowing me to use production for other things knowing I'll get a religion anyway.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It may not be that powerful, but it is very interesting... It allows Arabia to build up a big lead (in everything but faith) and then get a late religion.

Alone, that's nice but not interesting.... but combined with the Madrassa which means your Campuses give the same faith as if they were Holy sites... you also get a massive late faith boost without having to build any holy sites.

So its great for ....
1. build solid empire
2. get superpowerful medieval religion
[at the same time you are getting your UU to conquer other religion founders]

 

[Krajzen]

I depends on how highly the AI values the good beliefs.

And also, I think, how many players are on the map and what is the map's size, as it impacts the maximum number of religions.
Base algorithm is number of religions allowed = number of civs/2 + 1, so it would be

2-3 players: 2 religions
4-5 players: 3 religions
6-7 players: 4 religions
8-9 players: 5 religions
10-11 players: 6 religions
12-22 players: 7 religions

This, if I understand that correctly, is impacted by the map size.

The Arabian ability is the best in two extreme cases: if there is very small number of players/map size, so there are only 2 or maybe 3 religions to be founded, as it means you get free religion siulteaneously with the first/second civ; or if there is big number of players, as there may be never more than 7 religions, and limit may be even lower depending on map size, so religious race will end quickly and dramatically... With you having guaranteed reward from it.
So, in this configuration, moderate "standard" or "large" maps would be the worst for that ability, as they put the smallest pressure on the religious race, and it may end very late.

Yet another factor is WHO are those civs. Kongo in a game is bad news for Arabia as they cannot boost themselves using it Conversely, civs that are going to heavily pursuit religion (especially Spain, probably also Norway, Scythia, India, Aztecs - they all get faith bonuses) are welcome in Arabian game as they make the religious race end more faster and free guaranteed prophet to be more useful.

 

[spfun]

Probably good for higher difficulties as stated, which means its good.

 

[Furycrab]

I love it, it allows you some flexibility in the order of districts you build without suffering potentially because a few too many other players/ai decided to rush to a religion.

In 5, one of the most frustrating aspects of religion was deciding how hard you should go to get a religion since you didn't know from the start of the game (playing against random opponents) if religions were going to go really fast or really slow.

I don't think you should intentionally try to be last, but it means you can make a build order/order of actions where you know you'll have a Religion around turn X and that the "worst" thing that can happen is someone forces you to get the prophet earlier. It's a safety net, but in having that net, you can play what's on the map, and not worry about what other civs are doing at a stage of the game where you have very little information on them.

The ULA and UB have science on them, and they get knights with March, I'd be surprised if most people don't end up considering them tier 1 even when you don't use the UA.

 

[Krajzen]

The ULA and UB have science on them, and they get knights with March, I'd be surprised if most people don't end up considering them tier 1 even when you don't use the UA.

ULA requires founding a religion to use it at all, and UB requires religion for full effect

 

[joncnunn]

One big difference between Civ V (G&K / BNW) and Civ VI is that Great Prophets come from Great Prophet points as opposed to Civ V faith.
And so in Civ VI, Arabia can stockpile faith while still taking advantage of Last Prophet. They then instantly spawn a few apostles to max out their religion.

 

[ToothedBomb]

I'm not exactly sure how religion works, but my first thought was that'd you be left with leftover beliefs no one really wants (because they suck). Arabia's religious buildings have some sort of bonus too, right? What if you can't get a hold of one? Not sure if that's even a possibility in CiVI, but that'd be pretty rough.

 

[Furycrab]

ULA requires founding a religion to use it at all, and UB requires religion for full effect

Well ya, but Last Prophet guarantees you get there. My comment was more along the lines that if you don't intentionally try to be last and your UA effectively does nothing, it's not like the rest of the kit is weak.

I'm not exactly sure how religion works, but my first thought was that'd you be left with leftover beliefs no one really wants (because they suck). Arabia's religious buildings have some sort of bonus too, right? What if you can't get a hold of one? Not sure if that's even a possibility in CiVI, but that'd be pretty rough.

It seems buildings are not optional anymore, each religion gets one. You would just get last pick.

 

[Lucius_]

While I voted it's rather useful but only because it guarantees a religion. I see it as a fail-safe more than anything. It probably would only be needed at the highest difficulties or to ignore religion early. But based on CiV, early religion is much better than late religion; better beliefs and more powerful spread before competition. Honestly I think the ability is kind of cheap.

 

[Krajzen]

I'm not exactly sure how religion works, but my first thought was that'd you be left with leftover beliefs no one really wants (because they suck). Arabia's religious buildings have some sort of bonus too, right? What if you can't get a hold of one? Not sure if that's even a possibility in CiVI, but that'd be pretty rough.

Every religion gets one religious building belief.

I'm still wondering how acquiring great prophet looks for a regular civ. I mean, the only way to get him is from holy site slow accumulation or stonehenge, right? That would make religious race very predictable...

 

[Mort_Q]

I wonder if there is - or should be - an alternate bonus when the penultimate prophet is chosen and Arabia already has one?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I wonder if there is - or should be - an alternate bonus when the penultimate prophet is chosen and Arabia already has one?

No it just means you wasted their bonus... Arabia shouldn't build any Holy Sites until shortly before the 2nd to last prophet is taken.

 

[Red Pearl]

I'm still wondering how acquiring great prophet looks for a regular civ. I mean, the only way to get him is from holy site slow accumulation or stonehenge, right? That would make religious race very predictable...

It is predictable unless someone buys it when they are like 20 points away or something. Also it is worth noted that there are ways to increase GPP you are getting per turn. Divine Spark(pantheon) gives +1 GPP to each of your holy sites. Revelation(wild card) gives +2 GPP each turn.

 

[stealth_nsk]

It's useful, because:
- Guaranteed religion on high difficulty levels.
- A specific strategy. Could start with Campus instead of Holy Site and still get the religion (plus early University replacement in this Campus).

So yes, it's good.

 

[Dux1]

I think it's very useful, but regardless, I really like it from a thematic perspective.

 

[CurtisManning]

This UA is a lot more useful than some of you may think. Guaranteeing a religion really does wonders for Arabia, because a lot of its bonuses depend on it. It also means as Saladin you can focus your early game on building campuses first and then holy sites, and you don't need to pick the card for early GPP.

You might say aiming for the last religion equals bad beliefs, but remember religious victory is not about having the best beliefs, it's about spreading your religions to your neighbors. Also, I can see it as a powerful weapon against India or Kongo, both civs about to counter the religious game. If you have the last religion, it's probably not the best, so it's not that dangerous to spread it to India and Kongo.

Plus religion is always good, and even if you aim towards a science victory you're sure to get a nice little religion for those sweet bonuses.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It doesn't really matter if you get bad beliefs, because you're going to pick a Worship belief thanks to the LUA, and it's going to be better than all the other belief options due to that.